Jesus is Jehovah? So Jehovah is Son in trinity?

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PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,464
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#21
Isaiah 9:6 is "NOT" teaching that Jesus Christ is God the Father. The Bible clearly identifies God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit as "distinct" persons. In fact they are not even separate persons as some teach including Trinitarians. There is a difference between the definitions of "distinct" and "separate." And yes, I know the words are "synonymous" but are not identical in meaning. it is the oneness pentecostals that teach Jesus is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, He is all of them manifested in various "modes" or roles. That's why they are considered "Modalist." :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I'm reminded of the Pharisees who accused Jesus of blasphemy, saying he was God.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,464
553
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#22
The question is, who is Jehovah in your knowledge.
Please choose one option below and explain.
Jehovah is the name of:
1. Father 2. Son 3. Holy spirit 4. Godhead (F + S + HS) 5. Other

FlyingDove (senior member) said Jehovah is the Son.
Nehemiah6 (senior member) said Jehovah is applicable to both Father and Son.
I think cc4 (member) is saying Jehovah is the name of Godhead (F+S+HS).

What is your answer? No need to explain the trinity (assuming that we are already familiar with it).
Jehovah is the name of the Father. Jesus is the name of Jehovah on earth.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,067
2,991
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#23
Perhaps when we go to when Moses asked our Maker His name. He replied, as some translate who know more thand do we, I Am that I Am. Yahweh or yod he vav heh.. He said He would be Who He would be because we are not to understand the mystery of out Maker howeer He does give us things to believe such as:
In Isaiah 9;6 we are taught and we believe that the Child to be born unto the virgen would be known as the Everlasting Father, Almighty God, Comforter, and of cousrse He would be called Jesus, Yeshua...the Salvation of Yah.

If you read the Word you will find many times in the OT how Yahweh refers to HImself as our Husband, as our King and as our God. Hmmm? Sounds just like what we are taught in the NT about Jesus, Yeshua, however when we do not give credance to the OT we do not see the fulfillment of prphecy in its entirety.

Read all of the Word. It is Yeshua, or if your prefer, it is Jesus. All blessing in Yahweh...
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,508
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#24
I'm reminded of the Pharisees who accused Jesus of blasphemy, saying he was God.
So your a "Modalist" huh? And yes, the Pharisees did accuse Jesus of blasphemy for claiming to be God. In fact the high priest Caisphas ask Jesus the following at Matthew 26:63, " But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that Youi tell us (whether means two questions) You are the Christ/Messiah, the Son of God." At Luke 22:70 Jesus says, "Yes I am."

Jesus Christ does not swear that He is God the Father but the Son of God. Again, they are two distinct persons who are the one God. This is where your mixed up because your teaching that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one and the same person. Yet the Bible clearly teaches they are one and the same being, not persons.

In fact, let me throw this out at you for your consideration. When you teach Modalism you abandon the diversity of Persons within the godhead, and you lose the important concept that Christ is our representative or advocate WITH THE FATHER. If your with somebody you are not that one and the same person as that somebody. In other words, Jesus is not a true mediator between Himself and the Father if He is the same person as the Father. Logically speaking, modalism makes the events of redemptive history a charade. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,636
6,321
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#25
We should be careful about anthropomorphizing; it is us who must become conformed to His image.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,464
553
113
#26
So your a "Modalist" huh? And yes, the Pharisees did accuse Jesus of blasphemy for claiming to be God. In fact the high priest Caisphas ask Jesus the following at Matthew 26:63, " But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that Youi tell us (whether means two questions) You are the Christ/Messiah, the Son of God." At Luke 22:70 Jesus says, "Yes I am."

Jesus Christ does not swear that He is God the Father but the Son of God. Again, they are two distinct persons who are the one God. This is where your mixed up because your teaching that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one and the same person. Yet the Bible clearly teaches they are one and the same being, not persons.

In fact, let me throw this out at you for your consideration. When you teach Modalism you abandon the diversity of Persons within the godhead, and you lose the important concept that Christ is our representative or advocate WITH THE FATHER. If your with somebody you are not that one and the same person as that somebody. In other words, Jesus is not a true mediator between Himself and the Father if He is the same person as the Father. Logically speaking, modalism makes the events of redemptive history a charade. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I am most certainly NOT a Modalist. You insult me. Read the definition. Father, Son and Holy Spirit co-exist. They do not exist one-after-the other, as Modalists say.

Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity. Modalism states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son; and after Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, this view states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time--only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ. https://carm.org/modalism
You say "Isaiah 9:6 is "NOT" teaching that Jesus Christ is God the Father," yet we are told Jesus was the Word who created all things. Perhaps you need to clarify your very firm statement, it reads like a denial of Christ's divinity.

In John 1, Jesus is the Word/the Creator.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (Joh 1:1-3 KJV)

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isa 9:6 KJV)

As you admit, the Pharisees denied the divinity of Jesus, and your comment sounds similar. Perhaps you meant something else, because the consequences can be very serious. The cults, J.W.'s for example need to be aware of the seriousness of their false teaching. If I misunderstood you, then I apologise in advance.

"If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (Joh 8:42-44 KJV)
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,508
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#27
I am most certainly NOT a Modalist. You insult me. Read the definition. Father, Son and Holy Spirit co-exist. They do not exist one-after-the other, as Modalists say.



You say "Isaiah 9:6 is "NOT" teaching that Jesus Christ is God the Father," yet we are told Jesus was the Word who created all things. Perhaps you need to clarify your very firm statement, it reads like a denial of Christ's divinity.

In John 1, Jesus is the Word/the Creator.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (Joh 1:1-3 KJV)

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isa 9:6 KJV)

As you admit, the Pharisees denied the divinity of Jesus, and your comment sounds similar. Perhaps you meant something else, because the consequences can be very serious. The cults, J.W.'s for example need to be aware of the seriousness of their false teaching. If I misunderstood you, then I apologise in advance.

"If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (Joh 8:42-44 KJV)
All right then, kindly tell me what I said here that was wrong where you gave me a negative rating? Is Jesus Christ God the Father according to you?

Isaiah 9:6 is "NOT" teaching that Jesus Christ is God the Father. The Bible clearly identifies God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit as "distinct" persons. In fact they are not even separate persons as some teach including Trinitarians. There is a difference between the definitions of "distinct" and "separate." And yes, I know the words are "synonymous" but are not identical in meaning. it is the oneness pentecostals that teach Jesus is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, He is all of them manifested in various "modes" or roles. That's why they are considered "Modalist." :eek: PS: How do you think I am denying the deity of Jesus Christ when my sign off is "In God the Son?"

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
28,897
7,287
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64
Florida
#28
Does it mean, Jehovah is the Son in trinity?
I think, Jehovah witnesses believe that Jehovah is the Father.
Which is true? Is Jehovah the Son or Father according to trinity?
I believe that the Son goes by the name of Jesus and is part of the trinity along with the Father and Holy Spirit, 3 entities comprising 1 God.
 
Mar 14, 2011
63,935
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#29
There are two words translated God in the OT
1. Jehovah (basically YHWH) is the singular form of the word. It can and is used for any member.
2. Elohime is the plural form (in the beginning God (plural) created the heavens and the earth.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,464
553
113
#30
All right then, kindly tell me what I said here that was wrong where you gave me a negative rating? Is Jesus Christ God the Father according to you?

Isaiah 9:6 is "NOT" teaching that Jesus Christ is God the Father. The Bible clearly identifies God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit as "distinct" persons. In fact they are not even separate persons as some teach including Trinitarians. There is a difference between the definitions of "distinct" and "separate." And yes, I know the words are "synonymous" but are not identical in meaning. it is the oneness pentecostals that teach Jesus is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, He is all of them manifested in various "modes" or roles. That's why they are considered "Modalist." :eek: PS: How do you think I am denying the deity of Jesus Christ when my sign off is "In God the Son?"

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
This will do for now.

Jesus is Yahweh of the Old Testament.

Jesus is : -
Genesis 1:1 God is the Creator
John 1:3-10 Jesus is the Creator


Genesis 17:1 The Almighty is God
Rev. 1:8 Jesus is the Almighty


Exodus 3:14 The “I am” is God
John 8:58 Jesus is the “I am”


Deut. 10:17 The Lord of Lords is God
Rev. 19:16 Jesus is Lord of Lords


Ps 18:31 The Rock is God
I Cor 10:4 Jesus is the Rock


Psalms 22:16 They pierced my hands and my feet
Zechariah 12:10 They pierced me – God

John 19:34 They pierced Jesus

Ps 146:10 God shall reign forever
Luke 1:33 Jesus will reign forever


Isa 40:11 The Shepherd is God
John 10:16 Jesus is the Shepherd


Isa 41:14 The Redeemer is God
Luke 1:68 Jesus is the Redeemer


Isa 43:10 God said, “I am he”
John 8:24 Jesus said, “I am he”


Isa 43:10,11 (God is the Saviour
Luke 2:11 Jesus is the Saviour


Jer 31:32 God, the One Husband
II Cor. 11:2 Jesus-The One Husband


Zec 14:4-5 God is coming
Matt 25:31 Jesus is coming


Mal 1:6 The One Master is God
Matt 23:8 Jesus is the One Master


Isa 43:15 The Holy One is God
Acts 3:14 Jesus is the Holy One


Isa 43:15 God is King of Israel
Matt 27:37 Jesus is King of Israel


Isa 45:21 The One Saviour is God
Acts 4:12 Jesus is the One Saviour


Isa 43:10,11 God is the only Saviour
Titus 1:4 Jesus is the only Saviour


Isa 44:6 The first and last is God
Rev. 1:8, 22:13 Jesus is first and last


Isa. 44:6 The King of Israel is God
John 1:49 Jesus is King of Israel


Isa. 45:23 Every knee must bow to God
Phil 2:10-11 Every knee must bow to Jesus


Psalms 22:16 They pierced my hands and my feet
Zechariah 12:10 They pierced me – God

John 19:34 They pierced Jesus

Jesus said in Rev 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,508
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#31
According to our Father's prophet, Isaiah, Jesus Christ has the titles of Everlasting Father, Almighty God, Comforter, Counselor, Ruler of Peace. This information is free in Isaiah 9;6.

As for being a trinitatian, I have not a clue, but the Word is true. How do I know? Just like all who believe, faith.
So I'm going to try this another way jaumel and ask you point blank is Jesus Christ God the Father? I fully understand that Jesus has titles but what do they mean? For instance, He's called the "Bread of Life" and He is called a "Rock" as well as the "True Vine."

Even in Isaiah 9:6 He has the title of "Comforter," and the Holy Spirit is called the "Comforter" as well so does that mean Jesus is the Holy Spirit? My point in all of this is to show how important it is to understand what words and phrases mean in their context by doing proper Bible study or proper "hermaneutics." When people make sort of "veiled" comments it's good to ask questions to get to know "EXACTLY" what they mean. It's not a good idea to give a false impression to others that may be lukers or who read this stuff.

I also fully understand your statement, "As for being a trinitatian, I have not a clue," What is it that you don't understand? I say this because many people are Trinitarians and they don't understand it as well. And frankly I don't by the excuse that it is a "complete" mystery which is the favored excuse of many. It can be proven Biblically and I don't mean by using the typical methods of four leaf clovers, the sun, or water is ice and steam etc. If you want I would be happy to explain the trinity by using the Bible only. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,067
2,991
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#34
So I'm going to try this another way jaumel and ask you point blank is Jesus Christ God the Father? I fully understand that Jesus has titles but what do they mean? For instance, He's called the "Bread of Life" and He is called a "Rock" as well as the "True Vine."

Even in Isaiah 9:6 He has the title of "Comforter," and the Holy Spirit is called the "Comforter" as well so does that mean Jesus is the Holy Spirit? My point in all of this is to show how important it is to understand what words and phrases mean in their context by doing proper Bible study or proper "hermaneutics." When people make sort of "veiled" comments it's good to ask questions to get to know "EXACTLY" what they mean. It's not a good idea to give a false impression to others that may be lukers or who read this stuff.

I also fully understand your statement, "As for being a trinitatian, I have not a clue," What is it that you don't understand? I say this because many people are Trinitarians and they don't understand it as well. And frankly I don't by the excuse that it is a "complete" mystery which is the favored excuse of many. It can be proven Biblically and I don't mean by using the typical methods of four leaf clovers, the sun, or water is ice and steam etc. If you want I would be happy to explain the trinity by using the Bible only. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Jesu teaches He and the Father are one. Jesus teaches if you see Him you see the Father. Jesus teaches Elohim achad or God is One.
Jesus teaches to go out and baptiz<e in the name of the Father, the Son and the HOly Spirit in one rendition of the gospel and in another to be baptizeddddddd in the nameof Jesus in another rendition of HIs gospel so are both incorrect. No, both are correct. God is One. SJesus was s human for us, yet His human body was glorified before ascending to Heaven. In the OT Yahweh says, I am your Redeemer. He also declares I am you husband. Then He also says I am your King.

Readig all of the Word, Jesus, and believieng Him from Genesis tot he final amen of Revelation we come to KNOW by faith that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one God, not some schizoid poly go made up by the minds of flesh. Only One is directing all that is.

ADmit you do not understand this, as do I, but believe what He teaches us by the faith you have. It is peace-filled and always right.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,464
553
113
#35
Jesu teaches He and the Father are one. Jesus teaches if you see Him you see the Father. Jesus teaches Elohim achad or God is One.
Jesus teaches to go out and baptiz<e in the name of the Father, the Son and the HOly Spirit in one rendition of the gospel and in another to be baptizeddddddd in the nameof Jesus in another rendition of HIs gospel so are both incorrect. No, both are correct. God is One. SJesus was s human for us, yet His human body was glorified before ascending to Heaven. In the OT Yahweh says, I am your Redeemer. He also declares I am you husband. Then He also says I am your King.

Readig all of the Word, Jesus, and believieng Him from Genesis tot he final amen of Revelation we come to KNOW by faith that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one God, not some schizoid poly go made up by the minds of flesh. Only One is directing all that is.

ADmit you do not understand this, as do I, but believe what He teaches us by the faith you have. It is peace-filled and always right.
Amen. Thank you LORD.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,508
243
63
#36
Jesu teaches He and the Father are one. Jesus teaches if you see Him you see the Father. Jesus teaches Elohim achad or God is One.
Jesus teaches to go out and baptiz<e in the name of the Father, the Son and the HOly Spirit in one rendition of the gospel and in another to be baptizeddddddd in the nameof Jesus in another rendition of HIs gospel so are both incorrect. No, both are correct. God is One. SJesus was s human for us, yet His human body was glorified before ascending to Heaven. In the OT Yahweh says, I am your Redeemer. He also declares I am you husband. Then He also says I am your King.

Readig all of the Word, Jesus, and believieng Him from Genesis tot he final amen of Revelation we come to KNOW by faith that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one God, not some schizoid poly go made up by the minds of flesh. Only One is directing all that is.

ADmit you do not understand this, as do I, but believe what He teaches us by the faith you have. It is peace-filled and always right.
So jaumel, when you quoted John 10:30 which literally reads, "I and My Father We are one," one what according to the context? Are they one in purpose, one in nature, or one and the same person? The answer can be found in the "context." Look what John 10:31 says, "The Jews took up stones "AGAIN" to stone Him.

So what was the reason that the Jews wanted to stone Jesus? Maybe you can answer the question to PS? And btw jaumel, I understand completely what you stated in your post but apparently you don't understand the issue of distinct "persons" within the Trinity. So again, according to John 10:30 which you brought up, one what? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,067
2,991
113
#37
So jaumel, when you quoted John 10:30 which literally reads, "I and My Father We are one," one what according to the context? Are they one in purpose, one in nature, or one and the same person? The answer can be found in the "context." Look what John 10:31 says, "The Jews took up stones "AGAIN" to stone Him.

So what was the reason that the Jews wanted to stone Jesus? Maybe you can answer the question to PS? And btw jaumel, I understand completely what you stated in your post but apparently you don't understand the issue of distinct "persons" within the Trinity. So again, according to John 10:30 which you brought up, one what? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
james
I cannot help you. The context I understand is all of the Word...….I have paraphrased many teachings which explicitly declare Who Jesus is. I will not bow to disputes. Please allow me to believe as I believe I am given to understand, and do not pursue arguments, they are vanity.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,508
243
63
#38
I cannot help you. The context I understand is all of the Word...….I have paraphrased many teachings which explicitly declare Who Jesus is. I will not bow to disputes. Please allow me to believe as I believe I am given to understand, and do not pursue arguments, they are vanity.
Listen, I'm not asking you for help jaumej. I was merely asking you a question regarding your first post on this thread that (to me) you were intimating that Jesus was God the Father. I then ask you for a yes or no answer and here we are 4 or 5 post later and you still have not said yes or no, or even "I don't know."

These are debate forums and when people say things you can expect to be challenged for what they say and that includes me. I'm not trying to be mean or embarass you or trying to show off my knowledge. This is how we learn and grow in Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3:15 says, "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, ALWAYS being ready to made a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;" I'll leave you to think and meditate about that. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,636
6,321
113
#39
So jaumel, when you quoted John 10:30 which literally reads, "I and My Father We are one," one what according to the context? Are they one in purpose, one in nature, or one and the same person? The answer can be found in the "context." Look what John 10:31 says, "The Jews took up stones "AGAIN" to stone Him.

So what was the reason that the Jews wanted to stone Jesus? Maybe you can answer the question to PS? And btw jaumel, I understand completely what you stated in your post but apparently you don't understand the issue of distinct "persons" within the Trinity. So again, according to John 10:30 which you brought up, one what? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
james
that's directly answered in John 10:33

"for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."​
i don't know Greek but i don't see anything in John 10:33 that indicates they believed Jesus to be calling Himself 'on par with' or 'like' God -- it seems to me the language is pretty clear, that they understood Him here to be saying that He is God, and that, not 'a god' but the God.

isn't it so?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,636
6,321
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#40
do we all understand the difference between congruency and equality?
a definition quoted below from Wolfram:





Congruent
There are at least two meanings on the word congruent in mathematics. Two geometric figures are said to be congruent if one can be transformed into the other by an isometry (Coxeter and Greitzer 1967, p. 80). This relationship, called geometric congruence, is written
. (Unfortunately, the symbol
is also used to denote an isomorphism.)
A number
is said to be congruent to
modulo
if
(
divides
).




((Wolfram-Mathworld btw is an excellent site to get basic information about virtually any math topic. not too simple, but not so technical that it's unapproachable))

i think knowing something about this may be useful for thinking about the nature of God, Who is one, and how that in 3 persons He has shown Himself to us.