Jesus said understand it and know it! Do you?

[Dino246]

No... but if for some reason I do find myself in Judea, I would get out of there. Do you think the first century Christians outside of Judea went to Judea, and then fled to the mountains? I pretty sure they just stayed where they were.

Exactly... but as historical records show, the Christians did flee, and escaped the destruction... exactly as Jesus warned them to do.

Why people can't accept that is done and dusted is beyond me.

 

[cv5]

How does it not make sense? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

If the scripture says "let him who reads understand"... then yeah... we probably should try to understand- whether you think it has already been fulfilled or not.

Don't let Dino pull the wool over your eyes. Those Mark 13 passages have nothing whatsoever to do with the Church.......we have already been raptured by then. Those particular statements are warnings to Jews in Israel. The timeframe is the 70th week of Daniel a.k.a. the tribulation......yet future.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Don't let Dino pull the wool over your eyes. Those Mark 13 passages have nothing whatsoever to do with the Church.......we have already been raptured by then. Those particular statements are warnings to Jews in Israel. The timeframe is the 70th week of Daniel a.k.a. the tribulation......yet future.

Even so, even if the warning is to them, as readers of the scripture we ought to understand. But especially if we are going to claim that it happened already! How can we say "it" happened, when we don't know specifically what "it" means?

 

[cv5]

Exactly... but as historical records show, the Christians did flee, and escaped the destruction... exactly as Jesus warned them to do.

Why people can't accept that is done and dusted is beyond me.

Luke 21:12 "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (before the future tribulation)....

Luke 21:12-24 is an utterly unique passage NOT MENTIONED in Matthew 24 or Mark 13.
And it DOES in fact detail the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. And there is no AofD involved whatsoever.

Punctuated by verse 24 "and shall led away captive into all nations.........until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled"

A phenomenon which of course spans two millennia. And the truth is......we are still in the times of the Gentiles. And will be until the Second Coming.

 

[cv5]

Even so, even if the warning is to them, as readers of the scripture we ought to understand. But especially if we are going to claim that it happened already! How can we say "it" happened, when we don't know specifically what "it" means?

Please do not fall into the trap of the preterists. It is a heresy.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Please do not fall into the trap of the preterists. It is a heresy.

I have not really studied eschatology as much as I probably should have, but rest assured, I find preterism in general to be a scripturally weak position, illogical, unappealing, and on many levels, suspicious.

 

[Dino246]

Luke 21:12 "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (before the future tribulation)....

Luke 21:12-24 is an utterly unique passage NOT MENTIONED in Matthew 24 or Mark 13.
And it DOES in fact detail the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. And there is no AofD involved whatsoever.

Punctuated by verse 24 "and shall led away captive into all nations.........until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled"

A phenomenon which of course spans two millennia. And the truth is......we are still in the times of the Gentiles. And will be until the Second Coming.

Yelling isn't going to convince me of anything... except your limited ability to use reason and logic.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No it is not about Daniel 9:27 nor will there be a Temple of God rebuilt.
The Jews may build a great building and again offer sacrifices but God will not be there nor accept their sacrifices. To do so would be blaspheme.
Anti does not mean instead, but against.
Everything he does will be against the teachings of Christ and he will make that very plain.

Amen to that

“Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:21-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God….And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:10, 22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[JStates]

If stuff hits the fan, are you going to get yourself to Judea, and then flee to the mountains? Probably not. Nor are most other Christians. Of course, if you are, then it makes sense to you.

Understanding Scripture means understanding that some things have already happened. It would be ludicrous to interpret the prophecies of the coming Messiah to mean that He has not yet come. However, because some things have not happened in the way that some people think they should (according to their interpretation), they preach that those things have not happened at all.

Just like today's unrepentant Jews.

To add some context to this, based on my own studies... the Bible says that the Fall of Mystery Babylon (America) is going to drive many Jews living there into returning to Israel.

The USA is the last major holdout of Jews in the world... a population on par with Israel itself.

Just a thought.

 

[Dino246]

To add some context to this, based on my own studies... the Bible says that the Fall of Mystery Babylon (America) is going to drive many Jews living there into returning to Israel.

The USA is the last major holdout of Jews in the world... a population on par with Israel itself.

Just a thought.

Though Scripture doesn’t actually say anything about America.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

However, one cannot simply assume that prophecy has multiple fulfillments.

It's not a matter of this "prophecy having multiple fulfillments" (often referred to as "double fulfillment")--that's not what is going on in Jesus' Olivet Discourse (re: the "flee" matter).

Instead, it is a matter of sequence / chronology.

By that, I mean (not "a double fulfillment," but) two very distinct [instructions regarding] "see"-then-"flee".

One "see"-then-"flee" speaking of the events surrounding 70ad (those events spoken of only in Luke 21:12-24a,b), which takes place sequentially *before* "the beginning of birth pangs which are described in vv.8-11 (I do not say, "immediately" *before*);
the other completely distinct "see"-then-"flee" taking place sequentially *after* the beginning of birth pangs (which aspect Matthew 24 *starts off* with, leading up to that particular, distinct "see"-then-"flee" episode which *follows* those, by contrast).

Hence, two completely distinct episodes of "see"-then-"flee"...

...rather than this being a matter (incorrectly supposed to be) of "double fulfillment" (of a singular instruction / prophecy), no... which I also disagree with such a notion. And not what most people I personally speak with (or read, for that matter) are even talking about, here (on this point).

Hope that helps you see the perspective being put forth, regarding this particular point. = )

Yelling isn't going to convince me of anything... except your limited ability to use reason and logic.

 

[Dino246]

It's not a matter of this "prophecy having multiple fulfillments" (often referred to as "double fulfillment")--that's not what is going on in Jesus' Olivet Discourse (re: the "flee" matter).

Instead, it is a matter of sequence / chronology.

By that, I mean (not "a double fulfillment," but) two very distinct [instructions regarding] "see"-then-"flee".

One "see"-then-"flee" speaking of the events surrounding 70ad (those events spoken of only in Luke 21:12-24a,b), which takes place sequentially *before* "the beginning of birth pangs which are described in vv.8-11 (I do not say, "immediately" *before*);
the other completely distinct "see"-then-"flee" taking place sequentially *after* the beginning of birth pangs (which aspect Matthew 24 *starts off* with, leading up to that particular, distinct "see"-then-"flee" episode which *follows* those, by contrast).

Hence, two completely distinct episodes of "see"-then-"flee"...

...rather than this being a matter (incorrectly supposed to be) of "double fulfillment" (of a singular instruction / prophecy), no... which I also disagree with such a notion. And not what most people I personally speak with (or read, for that matter) are even talking about, here (on this point).

Hope that helps you see the perspective being put forth, regarding this particular point. = )

Let's examine your premise, that there are two distinct "See, then flee" events prophesied.

In Matthew 24:5-14, Jesus gives an overall summary of coming events:

5. Many false messiahs (Luke 21:8; Mark 13:6)
6. Wars and rumors of wars, but the end is still to come. (Luke 21:9; Mark 13:7)
7. Nation will rise against nation, famines and earthquakes in various places. (Luke 21:10; Mark 13:8)
8. These are the beginning of birth pains. (Luke 21:11; Mark 13:8b)
9-10 Persecution of Christians, with many turning away.
11. Many false prophets
12. Increase of wickedness
13 The one who stands firm to the end will be saved. (Luke 21:12-19 and Mark 13:9-13 both parallel Mt. 24:9-13)
14 Gospel preached in the whole world and then the end will come. (the other accounts don't have this)

Beginning in verse 15, Jesus gives more detail and instructions.

15 When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ (Mark 13:14; cf. Luke 21:20 see below*)
16-20 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. (Luke 21:21; Mark 13:14b-18)
21 For then there will be great distress. (Mark 13:19; see below**)
22 Those days will be shortened. (Mark 13:20)
34-26 Don't believe in or follow false messiahs (Mark 13:21-23)
27 The coming of the Son of Man will be like lightning.
28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 Immediately after those days the sun and moon will be darkened etc. (Luke 21:25-26; Mark 13:24-25)
30 The sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and all will see it. (Luke 21:27; Mark 13:26)
31 His angels will gather his elect from one end of the heavens to the other. (Mark 13:27; cf. Luke 21:28)
32 The lesson from the fig tree (Luke 21:29-31; Mark 13:26-29)

In verse 34, Jesus closes his prophecy with a clear, unambiguous time reference and a clear, unambiguous declaration of entirety:

34 This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

This is mirrored almost verbatim in Luke 21:32 and in Mark 13:30.

*Mark's version closely parallel's Matthew's, though more clearly quotes Daniel. Luke doesn't quote Daniel but instead gives a clear description of the event foretold: "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies...". Does this mean that Luke's version IS the 'abomination of desolation'? No, it doesn't (despite what some claim). However, it also doesn't require believers to know the OT story. I suspect that Jesus actually said both things, in order to provide the clearest possible explanation to the most people, so that none of His followers would be destroyed along with the unrepentant.

I don't see how He could have been more clear while still being concise. There is no second "see and flee" event in there.

**Luke records some details not found in the other versions, which are critical to interpretation:

Luke 21:22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

"All that has been written"... and "against this people" set the historical-prophetic and geographical context for the destruction. It is the prophesied destruction of ancient Israel for their rejection of God. Jerusalem was literally trampled by the gentile Roman armies in 70 AD, which was within a generation of Jesus' death.

Given that all three accounts are so close in phraseology, it is logical to conclude, without clear and abundant evidence to the contrary (there is none), that they are talking about the same sequence of events. Given that all three conclude with the same statement (This generation...), it is silly to think they are two distinct series of events separated by thousands of years.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

**Luke records some details not found in the other versions, which are critical to interpretation:

Luke 21:22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Right. That's what I said about the "events surrounding 70ad"... except I see verse 22 saying (instead), "For these are the days of avenging, to fulfill [G4130; infinitive; verb] all things having been written."

IOW, this isn't conveying that "this is the [total] FULFILLMENT [noun] of all things having been written [nothing further; full-stop]," but rather (more like, conveying), "these things right here [re: 70ad events] must take place [also] as part of the 'all things having been written' being indeed be fully fulfilled [not that these items named here (the 70ad events) are the complete 'fulfillment [noun]' 'of all things having been written'... this is part of 'all things having been written' which also must take place [so that 'all things having been written' are indeed fulfilled]... not that this stuff right here [re: the 70ad events] is everything in its entirety 'having been written' but is an important part of it--it cannot be left out, in other words]"

In Luke 21:32's "This generation will not pass away till all shall have taken place" must necessarily include what v.24 had already just spelled out (which includes two "of-lengthy-duration" items: "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations"... "and Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles [see Rev11:2] *until* the TIMES OF [not *fulness of*, used elsewhere] the Gentiles be fulfilled"...

...where the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" (not referring to the so-called "Church age"... no) refers rather to "Gentile domination over Israel" which started in 606/605bc (think: Neb's "dream / statue / image" with Neb as "head of gold")... and which will not be *concluded* until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (where the "42 months" of Rev11:2 corresponds with the "42 months" of Rev13:[1,]5-7, which connects back with Daniel 7's "period of time" referred to in v.27, and where just before that, v.22 says, "...and judgment was given to the saints of the most High..." which connects with Revelation 20:4a's "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them: and..." [going on to speak of a distinct group, regarding the ones who will be "beheaded" during a very specific time-period in v.4b, whereas the ones in v.4a are not those same persons--but both of these groups are now being seen by John in the same time-slot setting, and speaking of "thrones" and "reign with..."].

Part of how we know this (that it doesn't *conclude* until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19) is because, the LATER writing of "[The] Revelation" (in 95ad, or thereabouts) says, in Rev17:8, "... when they behold the beast that WAS, and IS NOT, and YET SHALL BE [FUTURE tense]"--bearing in mind that "the beast" [Rev13:1,5-7--connecting back with Daniel 7:20-25,27, where v.20 is describing one "whose look is more stout than his fellows"] is both a governmental-type entity [that 'was, and is not, and yet shall be' aspect] as well as an individual man (two aspects).

This *sequence* is also reflected in Matthew 22:7 (regarding the 70ad events) and Matthew 22:8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" which necessarily places the "THEN SAITH HE to" part as coming AFTER the 70ad events, and we see this in the LATER "95ad" writing of "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see Rev7:3 "144,000 servants of our God"] things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... and included in those particular "things" are the "SEALS" which are equivalent to "the beginning of birth pangs" which Luke 21:12 had already provided the sequence regarding, when it said, "But *before* all these [before all these 'beginning of birth pangs' described in vv.8-11]..." before all of those, the "events of 70ad" spelled out in vv.12-24a,b [not c] must transpire first.
This means that "the beginning of birth pangs" (aka the "seals") come sequentially AFTER the events surrounding "70ad"... whereas many mistakenly believe they instead lead UP TO the 70ad events (as though "70ad" is the culmination of them). Not so.

"All that has been written"... and "against this people" set the historical-prophetic and geographical context for the destruction. It is the prophesied destruction of ancient Israel for their rejection of God. Jerusalem was literally trampled by the gentile Roman armies in 70 AD, which was within a generation of Jesus' death.

I do not deny that vv.12-24a,b is indeed describing the events of "70ad"... I disagree (for reasons stated above) that this setting (of events) is "the fulfillment [noun] of all that has been written"... rather, that these "70ad events" described in vv.12-24a,b must also take place "to fulfill [verb, infinitive]" (as one very important aspect of) "all things having been written" (that is, if THESE 70ad events do not take place also, then "all things having been written" will be incomplete... and thus, not real "prophecies" / i.e. be untrue... which of course they are NOT untrue, but true indeed! This, instead, [as actually written] does not require that the "70ad events" be the complete fulfillment "of all things having been written"... but that these items cannot be left out. This is the point being conveyed there.)





I apologize for the length of this post (and I endeavored to minimize the "emphasis" features, keeping it down as much as I felt could convey my intentions... and please know that I do not intend my "CAPS"-emphasis as "shouting" = ) )


Thank you for the conversation. = )

 

[RichMan]

Right. That's what I said about the "events surrounding 70ad"... except I see verse 22 saying (instead), "For these are the days of avenging, to fulfill [G4130; infinitive; verb] all things having been written."

IOW, this isn't conveying that "this is the [total] FULFILLMENT [noun] of all things having been written [nothing further; full-stop]," but rather (more like, conveying), "these things right here [re: 70ad events] must take place [also] as part of the 'all things having been written' being indeed be fully fulfilled [not that these items named here (the 70ad events) are the complete 'fulfillment [noun]' 'of all things having been written'... this is part of 'all things having been written' which also must take place [so that 'all things having been written' are indeed fulfilled]... not that this stuff right here [re: the 70ad events] is everything in its entirety 'having been written' but is an important part of it--it cannot be left out, in other words]"

In Luke 21:32's "This generation will not pass away till all shall have taken place" must necessarily include what v.24 had already just spelled out (which includes two "of-lengthy-duration" items: "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations"... "and Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles [see Rev11:2] *until* the TIMES OF [not *fulness of*, used elsewhere] the Gentiles be fulfilled"...

...where the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" (not referring to the so-called "Church age"... no) refers rather to "Gentile domination over Israel" which started in 606/605bc (think: Neb's "dream / statue / image" with Neb as "head of gold")... and which will not be *concluded* until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (where the "42 months" of Rev11:2 corresponds with the "42 months" of Rev13:[1,]5-7, which connects back with Daniel 7's "period of time" referred to in v.27, and where just before that, v.22 says, "...and judgment was given to the saints of the most High..." which connects with Revelation 20:4a's "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them: and..." [going on to speak of a distinct group, regarding the ones who will be "beheaded" during a very specific time-period in v.4b, whereas the ones in v.4a are not those same persons--but both of these groups are now being seen by John in the same time-slot setting, and speaking of "thrones" and "reign with..."].

Part of how we know this (that it doesn't *conclude* until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19) is because, the LATER writing of "[The] Revelation" (in 95ad, or thereabouts) says, in Rev17:8, "... when they behold the beast that WAS, and IS NOT, and YET SHALL BE [FUTURE tense]"--bearing in mind that "the beast" [Rev13:1,5-7--connecting back with Daniel 7:20-25,27, where v.20 is describing one "whose look is more stout than his fellows"] is both a governmental-type entity [that 'was, and is not, and yet shall be' aspect] as well as an individual man (two aspects).

This *sequence* is also reflected in Matthew 22:7 (regarding the 70ad events) and Matthew 22:8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" which necessarily places the "THEN SAITH HE to" part as coming AFTER the 70ad events, and we see this in the LATER "95ad" writing of "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see Rev7:3 "144,000 servants of our God"] things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... and included in those particular "things" are the "SEALS" which are equivalent to "the beginning of birth pangs" which Luke 21:12 had already provided the sequence regarding, when it said, "But *before* all these [before all these 'beginning of birth pangs' described in vv.8-11]..." before all of those, the "events of 70ad" spelled out in vv.12-24a,b [not c] must transpire first.
This means that "the beginning of birth pangs" (aka the "seals") come sequentially AFTER the events surrounding "70ad"... whereas many mistakenly believe they instead lead UP TO the 70ad events (as though "70ad" is the culmination of them). Not so.



I do not deny that vv.12-24a,b is indeed describing the events of "70ad"... I disagree (for reasons stated above) that this setting (of events) is "the fulfillment [noun] of all that has been written"... rather, that these "70ad events" described in vv.12-24a,b must also take place "to fulfill [verb, infinitive]" (as one very important aspect of) "all things having been written" (that is, if THESE 70ad events do not take place also, then "all things having been written" will be incomplete... and thus, not real "prophecies" / i.e. be untrue... which of course they are NOT untrue, but true indeed! This, instead, [as actually written] does not require that the "70ad events" be the complete fulfillment "of all things having been written"... but that these items cannot be left out. This is the point being conveyed there.)





I apologize for the length of this post (and I endeavored to minimize the "emphasis" features, keeping it down as much as I felt could convey my intentions... and please know that I do not intend my "CAPS"-emphasis as "shouting" = ) )


Thank you for the conversation. = )

Brother, your "emphasis" is a distraction not an aid.
Believe it or not, most of us can understand better without your emphasis.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @RichMan , for you... I repeat my post, eliminating the emphasis features, for your sake.
Please address any problems you might find with the content of this post. Thanks:


[quoting my Post #33]

Right. That's what I said about the events surrounding 70ad... except I see verse 22 saying, instead, "For these are the days of avenging, to fulfill [G4130; infinitive; verb] all things having been written."

IOW, this isn't conveying that "this is the total fulfillment-noun-of all things having been written--nothing further; full-stop," but rather, more like conveying, "these things right here--re: 70ad events--must take place also as part of the 'all things having been written' to indeed be fully fulfilled--not that these items named here--the 70ad events--are the complete 'fulfillment-noun' 'of all things having been written'...
...this is part of 'all things having been written' which also must take place--so that 'all things having been written' are indeed fulfilled... not that this stuff right here--re: the 70ad events--is everything in its entirety 'having been written' but is an important part of it--it cannot be left out, in other words.

In Luke 21:32's "This generation will not pass away till all shall have taken place" must necessarily include what v.24 had already just spelled out--which includes two "of-lengthy-duration" items: "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations"... "and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles"--see Rev11:2 also--until the times of--not fulness of, used elsewhere--"until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled"...

...where the phrase "the times of the Gentiles" is used, it is not referring to the so-called Church age... no--this refers rather to Gentile domination over Israel, which started in 606/605bc--think: Neb's dream / statue / image with Neb as head of gold--and which will not be concluded until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19--where the 42 months of Rev11:2 corresponds with the 42 months of Rev13:1,5-7, which connects back with Daniel 7's period of time referred to in v.27, and where just before that, v.22 says, "...and judgment was given to the saints of the most High..." which connects with Revelation 20:4a's "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them: and..."--the text going on to speak of a distinct group, regarding the ones who will be beheaded during a very specific time-period in v.4b, whereas the ones in v.4a are not those same persons--but both of these groups are now being seen by John in the same time-slot setting, and speaking of thrones in 20:4a and... in 20:4b reigned with Christ...

Part of how we know this--that it doesn't conclude until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19--is because, the later writing of "[The] Revelation"--in 95ad, or thereabouts--says, in Rev17:8, "... when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet shall be-future tense"--bearing in mind that "the beast" Rev13:1,5-7--connecting back with Daniel 7:20-25,27, where v.20 is describing one "whose look is more stout than his fellows"--is both a governmental-type entity: that 'was, and is not, and yet shall be' aspect--as well as an individual man--i.e. two aspects.

This sequence is also reflected in Matthew 22:7--regarding the 70ad events; and Matthew 22:8's "Then saith he to his servants" which necessarily places the "Then saith he to" part as coming after the 70ad events, and we see this reflected in the later 95ad writing of "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto Him [unto Jesus] to shew unto His servants--see Rev7:3 "144,000 servants of our God"--things which must come to pass in quickness-noun"... and included in those particular things are the seals, which are equivalent to "the beginning of birth pangs" which Luke 21:12 had already provided the sequence regarding, when it said, "But *before* all these--before all these 'beginning of birth pangs' described in vv.8-11"--before all of those, the events of 70ad spelled out in vv.12-24a,b--not c--must transpire first.
This means that "the beginning of birth pangs"--aka the seals--come sequentially after the events surrounding 70ad... whereas many mistakenly believe they instead lead up to the 70ad events--as though 70ad is the culmination of them. Not so.


--and--

I do not deny that vv.12-24a,b is indeed describing the events of 70ad... I disagree--for reasons stated above--that this setting of 70ad events is "the fulfillment-noun-of all that has been written"... rather, that these 70ad events described in vv.12-24a,b must also take place "to fulfill-verb, infinitive" as one very important aspect of "all things having been written"--that is, if THESE 70ad events do not take place also, then "all things having been written" will be incomplete... and thus, not real prophecies i.e. be untrue... which of course they are not untrue, but true indeed! This, instead, as actually written, does not require that the 70ad events be the complete fulfillment "of all things having been written"... but that these items cannot be left out. This is the point being conveyed there.





I apologize for the length of this post--and I endeavored to minimize the emphasis features, keeping it down as much as I felt could convey my intentions... and please know that I do not intend my caps-emphasis as shouting = )


Thank you for the conversation. = )


[end quoting]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ 5-minute edit time... insufficient. argh

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I see that [member] Dino246 made use of the various emphasis features: bold, italics, (parentheses), a few CAPS, color, **asterisks, "quotation marks" and in a previous post of his, made use of the underlining feature, too...
But perhaps that post was skimmed past, unnoticed? Just pondering,,,

 

[cv5]

Brother, your "emphasis" is a distraction not an aid.
Believe it or not, most of us can understand better without your emphasis.

The emphasis and bold type works for me. Frankly I've gotten quite used to it and appreciate it.

TDW gets an A+ for effort an A+ for thoroughness, an A++ for scholarship and an A+++ for genteel courtiousness....

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The SEQUENCE issues of the Olivet Discourse, spell out to the following order-of-events:


1) Lk21:12 - "But *before* all these" (before all these beginning of birth pangs described in vv.8-11, equivalent to Matt24:4-8 and Mark13:5-8)... before ALL of those beginning of birth pangs, the 70ad events of vv.12-24a,b must come first:

12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19In your patience possess ye your souls.

20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until [...]


**all of the above refers to the events surrounding 70ad, including vv.20-21's "see"-then-"flee"



2) Matthew 24:4-8 [quoted below] / Mark 13:5-8 [and Lk21:8-11 only described in that text, not labeled] "the beginning of birth pangs" (which come sequentially after the 70ad events--and are equivalent to the seals of Rev6 as part of the "in quickness [noun]" time-period that immediately precedes and leads up to Christ's Second Coming to the earth / Return Rev19):

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man [G5100 - tis - 'a certain one' not] deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows [/beginning of birth pangs; note that Paul in 1Th5:1-3 refers to the INITIAL "birth pang [singular]" at the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time-period].



3) Matthew 24:15 "When ye THEREFORE [<--key word] shall see the AOD [singular/singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet [i.e this can only refer to the "AOD [singular/singular]" in Dan12:11] standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then... flee..."

**note that this entire text is preceded by the beginning of birth pangs prior to the "AOD" point in time, which is the opposite order found in Luke 21:12-24a,b (the 70ad events) and THEN Luke 21:8-11 (the beginning of birth pangs which come AFTER the 70ad events).

This is the second instruction of "see"-then-"flee"... completely distinct from that of the one pertaining to 70ad





This means, that, once you lay out all of the "chronology," there are indeed two distinct instructions of "see"-then-"flee"

 

[Dino246]

Right. That's what I said about the "events surrounding 70ad"... except I see verse 22 saying (instead), "For these are the days of avenging, to fulfill [G4130; infinitive; verb] all things having been written."

IOW, this isn't conveying that "this is the [total] FULFILLMENT [noun] of all things having been written [nothing further; full-stop]," but rather (more like, conveying), "these things right here [re: 70ad events] must take place [also] as part of the 'all things having been written' being indeed be fully fulfilled [not that these items named here (the 70ad events) are the complete 'fulfillment [noun]' 'of all things having been written'... this is part of 'all things having been written' which also must take place [so that 'all things having been written' are indeed fulfilled]... not that this stuff right here [re: the 70ad events] is everything in its entirety 'having been written' but is an important part of it--it cannot be left out, in other words]"

We disagree on the implications of the infinitive verb. While it can mean incomplete actions, such as a mortgage payment made to fulfill the requirements of a mortgage, a payment made to fulfill the mortgage is different; it indicates completion. So too, Jesus' words indicate completion, not "partial payment". One would only conclude the 'partial payment' idea if one already believed that concept.

In Luke 21:32's "This generation will not pass away till all shall have taken place" must necessarily include what v.24 had already just spelled out (which includes two "of-lengthy-duration" items: "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations"... "and Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles [see Rev11:2] *until* the TIMES OF [not *fulness of*, used elsewhere] the Gentiles be fulfilled"...

The unrepentant Jews who survived this holocaust were led away into slavery; that was a specific event, though it may have taken weeks to complete. As for the "trodding down", it need only have begun. I don't agree that event needed to be completed for Jesus' words to be valid; His use of "until" allows the completion to take place over a longer period. Again, it seems that you are forcing an a priori interpretation onto the text.

...where the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" (not referring to the so-called "Church age"... no) refers rather to "Gentile domination over Israel" which started in 606/605bc (think: Neb's "dream / statue / image" with Neb as "head of gold")... and which will not be *concluded* until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (where the "42 months" of Rev11:2 corresponds with the "42 months" of Rev13:[1,]5-7, which connects back with Daniel 7's "period of time" referred to in v.27, and where just before that, v.22 says, "...and judgment was given to the saints of the most High..." which connects with Revelation 20:4a's "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them: and..." [going on to speak of a distinct group, regarding the ones who will be "beheaded" during a very specific time-period in v.4b, whereas the ones in v.4a are not those same persons--but both of these groups are now being seen by John in the same time-slot setting, and speaking of "thrones" and "reign with..."].

That's all circular and a priori argumentation.

Part of how we know this (that it doesn't *conclude* until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19) is because, the LATER writing of "[The] Revelation" (in 95ad, or thereabouts) says, in Rev17:8, "... when they behold the beast that WAS, and IS NOT, and YET SHALL BE [FUTURE tense]"--bearing in mind that "the beast" [Rev13:1,5-7--connecting back with Daniel 7:20-25,27, where v.20 is describing one "whose look is more stout than his fellows"] is both a governmental-type entity [that 'was, and is not, and yet shall be' aspect] as well as an individual man (two aspects).

I don't agree that Revelation was penned in 95. I believe that John wrote it closer to 65.

This *sequence* is also reflected in Matthew 22:7 (regarding the 70ad events) and Matthew 22:8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" which necessarily places the "THEN SAITH HE to" part as coming AFTER the 70ad events,

22:7 certainly appears to describe the events of 70. However, 22:8 leads to 9, wherein the servants are sent out to spread the good news. I don't see how this puts any of the other events described in ch. 24 out of sequence.

and we see this in the LATER "95ad" writing of "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see Rev7:3 "144,000 servants of our God"] things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... and included in those particular "things" are the "SEALS" which are equivalent to "the beginning of birth pangs" which Luke 21:12 had already provided the sequence regarding, when it said, "But *before* all these [before all these 'beginning of birth pangs' described in vv.8-11]..." before all of those, the "events of 70ad" spelled out in vv.12-24a,b [not c] must transpire first.
This means that "the beginning of birth pangs" (aka the "seals") come sequentially AFTER the events surrounding "70ad"... whereas many mistakenly believe they instead lead UP TO the 70ad events (as though "70ad" is the culmination of them). Not so.

If, as I believe, John wrote Revelation in about 65, the temporal indicators in ch. 1 fit perfectly with the events of 66-70, and there is no problem with the sequence of events in 24.

I do not deny that vv.12-24a,b is indeed describing the events of "70ad"... I disagree (for reasons stated above) that this setting (of events) is "the fulfillment [noun] of all that has been written"... rather, that these "70ad events" described in vv.12-24a,b must also take place "to fulfill [verb, infinitive]" (as one very important aspect of) "all things having been written" (that is, if THESE 70ad events do not take place also, then "all things having been written" will be incomplete... and thus, not real "prophecies" / i.e. be untrue... which of course they are NOT untrue, but true indeed! This, instead, [as actually written] does not require that the "70ad events" be the complete fulfillment "of all things having been written"... but that these items cannot be left out. This is the point being conveyed there.)

Again, this is circular reasoning.

I apologize for the length of this post (and I endeavored to minimize the "emphasis" features, keeping it down as much as I felt could convey my intentions... and please know that I do not intend my "CAPS"-emphasis as "shouting" = ) )

Thank you for the conversation. = )

Likewise; I appreciate your explanation.