John 3:16

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Wansvic

Active member
Nov 27, 2018
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you make an accusation to try and bolster what you teach...sure it is not you being hostile? then you try to pull God on your side


will you be judged ?

I am saved now and know NOW I will not be found wanting

know why? because I am not depending on ME for my salvation or what I DO to stay saved

I am depending on the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ and my righteousness is of Him

we are not judged on what is provided for in scripture. there is only ONE name under heaven whereby we might be saved and while the Bible indicates there will be rewards for what we do, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has accepted Christ as their Savior, and God is the judge of the heart, not a person, will STILL be accepted into God's eternal dwelling place though there works are not rewarded

you know, I have heard this type of speech from people, like 'you will have to stand before God' or 'we will have to stand before God (and of course that means one person is a looser in the mind of the other one who is threatening) growing up and what it is called, is 'intimidation'

people who try to control use that kind of language in order to get the results they want out of others.

now you might be able to get away with that among those who believe as you are trying to teach here, because you would have us believe our salvation is works oriented.

will you present your self-righteousness or the righteousness of the spotless Lamb of God before our heavenly Father? do you suppose He does not already know?
Wow.
Let me say this again:
You see what you see.
I see what I see.
There is no need to be hostile toward someone whose beliefs differ from yours.
It is my desire to share what I see in the Word with others in hopes it will be helpful.
I do not share things to be negative.

And whether you believe it or not it is recorded that we will be judged by the Word of God:

"... the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48)
John 12:48

Commentary for John 12:48:
[The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him] Ye shall be judged according to my doctrine: the maxims which ye have heard from my mouth shall be those on which ye shall be tried in the great day; and ye shall be condemned or acquitted according as ye have believed or obeyed them, or according as ye have despised and violated them.
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
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in Augustines day that is exactly what Christians did. they thought any sin after baptism was extraordinarily difficult to forgive, and that it was the act of baptism or at the time of baptism that sins were literally washed away. so they put it off until they were old and almost dead, or at least when they were past their youth and, it was thought, more liable to live in holiness, and they baptized children when they were stricken with plague, thinking it would save them. Augustine himself was almost baptized when he was a teenager because he fell ill, but he recovered and wasn't baptized until almost a decade later.

((Iirc))
that's some pretty messed up stuff! didn't know that
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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in Augustines day that is exactly what Christians did. they thought any sin after baptism was extraordinarily difficult to forgive, and that it was the act of baptism or at the time of baptism that sins were literally washed away. so they put it off until they were old and almost dead, or at least when they were past their youth and, it was thought, more liable to live in holiness, and they baptized children when they were stricken with plague, thinking it would save them. Augustine himself was almost baptized when he was a teenager because he fell ill, but he recovered and wasn't baptized until almost a decade later.

((Iirc))
Live like the devil, then get baptized last second and you're in!
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
5,970
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Wow.
Let me say this again:
You see what you see.
I see what I see.
There is no need to be hostile toward someone whose beliefs differ from yours.
It is my desire to share what I see in the Word with others in hopes it will be helpful.
I do not share things to be negative.

And whether you believe it or not it is recorded that we will be judged by the Word of God:

"... the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48)
John 12:48

Commentary for John 12:48:
[The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him] Ye shall be judged according to my doctrine: the maxims which ye have heard from my mouth shall be those on which ye shall be tried in the great day; and ye shall be condemned or acquitted according as ye have believed or obeyed them, or according as ye have despised and violated them.

did Jesus have to die or not?

maybe we should have all got a bigger tub

it is faith in Christ that saves...not you and your dogmatic misrepresentation of baptism

and I'll see your 'wow' and raise you 3 'by goshes'

you obviously have no intention of doing anything but pushing your errant teaching

you are not original in your approach or in how you feign shock and clutch your pearls

but you just cannot and will not, and refuse to acknowledge, that Jesus alone forgives sin and nothing we do can change that
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
5,970
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I dont understand why so many christians here seem to be against water baptism. Did they just not repent and believe when they were first water baptised? So think nobody else ought to bother with it?


Also many posting on here just give one verse, out of context and not giving the next few verses or bothering to read the whole chapter. You cant do that, that is wrong too.
What did Jesus commission his apostles to do? Spread the gospel AND baptise people in His name. It wasnt one or the other its BOTH.

Was Paul baptised? YES He was! Right after he repented. He didnt begin his new life unbaptised.

Paul goes on to write in 1 Corinthians 15:29

Else what shall they do which are baptised for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptised for the dead?

Why indeed? We are baptised to bury out old selves to be raised our new selves in Christ. If one has not undergone this burial, how can one be raised to life?

I supect there are some here that dont really believe in the resurrection. Its do it yourself religion.

not one single person here has stated they are against baptism. not one single person

if you think so, quote their post and we'll check it out

it does not matter what you 'suspect' no one has said they do not believe in the resurrection either

I was baptized when I was 13...and I know others here have been also.

perhaps you should reread what people have written because your understanding of the posts is not what is being said
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
5,970
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Live like the devil, then get baptized last second and you're in!

like going for confession and thinking a man who could be sinning worse than you are, can somehow give you absolution

I would hate to see the bath water LOL!
 

KnowMe

Active member
Feb 4, 2019
882
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I dont understand why so many christians here seem to be against water baptism. Did they just not repent and believe when they were first water baptised? So think nobody else ought to bother with it?


Also many posting on here just give one verse, out of context and not giving the next few verses or bothering to read the whole chapter. You cant do that, that is wrong too.
What did Jesus commission his apostles to do? Spread the gospel AND baptise people in His name. It wasnt one or the other its BOTH.

Was Paul baptised? YES He was! Right after he repented. He didnt begin his new life unbaptised.

Paul goes on to write in 1 Corinthians 15:29

Else what shall they do which are baptised for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptised for the dead?

Why indeed? We are baptised to bury out old selves to be raised our new selves in Christ. If one has not undergone this burial, how can one be raised to life?

I supect there are some here that dont really believe in the resurrection. Its do it yourself religion.
I’ve read acts 9 it doesn’t quite say it was a water baptism, unless he was sprinkled with water in the house it appears that was a Holy Spirit baptism.
 

Wansvic

Active member
Nov 27, 2018
530
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did Jesus have to die or not?

maybe we should have all got a bigger tub

it is faith in Christ that saves...not you and your dogmatic misrepresentation of baptism

and I'll see your 'wow' and raise you 3 'by goshes'

you obviously have no intention of doing anything but pushing your errant teaching

you are not original in your approach or in how you feign shock and clutch your pearls

but you just cannot and will not, and refuse to acknowledge, that Jesus alone forgives sin and nothing we do can change that
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." Gal 5:22-25
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
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"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." Gal 5:22-25

but first you have to believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father and then you can ask to be Spirit filled and begin to understand that we need to follow Him

water baptism does not wash away sin...only the blood of Christ washes away sin and only then, can we produce fruit He approves of

only then can we grow in Him and gladly do what He asks. He says to take His yoke and learn of Him because He is meek and lowly...He does not brag and boast, yet He, is THE ONLY ONE who would be able to do so in all truth

did Jesus die or not? if He did, and He rose again, the work is finished

we are IN Christ and cannot manufacture our own righteousness...not even if we are a believer

IN him

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Acts 17:28

it is IN Him...if you act alone to do righteous deeds, they are not acceptable. Jesus did only what the Father told Him to do
 
Dec 9, 2011
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I do not agree with your perception of the meaning of the scripture.

It is clear that Peter said "...eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" 1 Peter 3:20-21

For whatever reason God chose to use water baptism in connection with the spiritual rebirth only He knows.

The Word says all are to follow the instructions given on the Day of Pentecost as evidenced in the Word. I for one believe the instructions are not to be overlooked.
Sounds like you are looking the other way when you should defend the truth, will you agree that scripture should harmonize scripture?

John 3:16
king James Version

16for God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Nothing there about baptism.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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My point is that the water in these Old Testament accounts point to the water baptism of the New Testament.
Although the individuals did not immerse in water, water was a means of protection.
You gave pharaoh's men as a water example. They were not protected by water but killed. Nor did Noah, his family, or the animals get wet. They were sealed in the ark by God for a week before the forty days and nights of rain began.

Genesis 7:6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood. 8 Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, 9 male and female, came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And after the seven days the floodwaters came on the earth.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Some Old Testament water references that foreshadow the New Testament water baptism:
Noah believed and acted upon his belief by building an ark to the saving of his house. They were preserved and saved through water. During this event, water was the vehicle by which the Earth was cleansed of all sin.

Baby Moses was placed in an ark and floated to safety. Later upon instruction from God, Moses parted the Red Sea and the children of Israel escaped from their enemies through water. Again, their sinful enemies were washed away in water.
in all three of these cases people were saved from water, not saved by water.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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You gave pharaoh's men as a water example. They were not protected by water but killed. Nor did Noah, his family, or the animals get wet. They were sealed in the ark by God for a week before the forty days and nights of rain began.
it was the ark that saved Noah, the ark that saved Moses -- both were "sealed with pitch" which is literally the same Hebrew word for "atonement"

wood. atonement. this is a picture of Christ on the cross - and the water was judgement for the people in Noah's day, and the army of Egypt, and the Lord God spared His own people this wrath, preserving them in wood, sealed with pitch, and holding back the waters of the Sea of Reeds by 'wind' ((Ex. 14:21)) which is also the word for spirit. Christ crucified; salvation; God with us

:)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
25,346
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it was the ark that saved Noah, the ark that saved Moses -- both were "sealed with pitch" which is literally the same Hebrew word for "atonement"

wood. atonement. this is a picture of Christ on the cross - and the water was judgement for the people in Noah's day, and the army of Egypt, and the Lord God spared His own people this wrath, preserving them in wood, sealed with pitch, and holding back the waters of the Sea of Reeds by 'wind' ((Ex. 14:21)) which is also the word for spirit. Christ crucified; salvation; God with us

:)
Amen :)
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
3,443
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I'm not sure what there you go means.:)Did you mean everyone as In those here to mean those that believe the word "acknowledge"Is the same as believe?

If that's what you mean then you are deliriously exaggerating In a sarcastic way meaning you know know one thinks talk Is the same as believing from the heart.

John 6:44
King James Version

44.No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
No what I meant is good catch...kudos to you...but thanks for the profile I'll keep it in mind.
 

Guojing

Active member
Jan 12, 2019
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HYPER-DISPENSATIONALISM ALERT.

This is absolutely false, for a number of reasons, the main one would be that the CHURCH was already operating BEFORE Paul was converted, PROOF:

Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

The actual beginning of the New Covenant was when Jesus died and rose again!


Heb 9:16-17 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

Matthew 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
We already have a lengthy discussion over here.

Different people have different definitions in mind when they talk about the new covenant of grace. For me, its the dispensation where Jews and Gentiles are equal in the church, where the Gospel of the Kingdom has been superseded by the Gospel of Grace.

That Gospel was a mystery that was only revealed to Paul, so it does not make sense to say that it began before him. Peter still still thinking about the Kingdom at the beginning of Acts 1:6. He was obviously not including the Gentiles into that Gospel.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I do not agree with your perception of the meaning of the scripture.

It is clear that Peter said "...eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" 1 Peter 3:20-21

For whatever reason God chose to use water baptism in connection with the spiritual rebirth only He knows.

The Word says all are to follow the instructions given on the Day of Pentecost as evidenced in the Word. I for one believe the instructions are not to be overlooked.
You do not agree probably due to indoctrination and you appear to be absolutely obsessed with water baptism. Do you attend the church of Christ? You seem to focus mainly on the words, "saved by water" (KJV) in 1 Peter 3:20 and assume this means the water is what actually saved Noah and his family, however, the Greek is saved "through" (di) water. (NKJV, NASB, NIV). The ESV reads ..eight persons, were brought safely through water. Noah and his family saved "through" water does not mean that the water is what literally saved them, rather, the ARK is what literally saved them from the destructive flood waters. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). So once again, the context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

The Greek word “antitupon,” as used in I Peter 3: 21, is “an adjective, used as a noun,” and denotes, in the NT, “a corresponding type,” being “said of baptism.” “The circumstances of the flood, the ark and its occupants, formed a type, and baptism forms “a corresponding type,” each setting forth the spiritual realities of the death, burial, and resurrection of believers in their identification with Christ. It is not a case of type and antitype, but of two types, that in Genesis, the type, and baptism, the corresponding type.” Noah was saved by the ark “through (via) water.” Water was not the means of their salvation, but the ark. The ark is what both delivered and preserved them, the two aspects of “salvation.” Their “salvation” was typical of the salvation promised to the Christian. It pictured it. So also does Christian baptism picture the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. *By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience -through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Nothing I have posted alters the gospel message.
Salvation by water baptism (as taught by Catholicism, Mormonism and Campbellism) certainly does alter the gospel message.

The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To “believe” the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The Gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

If one believes in Jesus sacrifice they will act upon what is instructed in the Word. Paul says that not all have obeyed the gospel. (Romans 10:16) How does one obey the gospel if not by obeying the instructions initially given on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38)
Getting water baptized is not how we obey the gospel. In Romans 10:16, we read: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We can clearly see that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16)

In repentance - we turn to Jesus and die to self.
In repentance, we change our mind and place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation - ..repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21) Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

Submit to water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin - where we are buried with Him. And receive the gift of the Holy Ghost - become filled with the Spirit of God wherein is resurrection power.
Once again, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit when we BELIEVE in Him/believe in the Lord Jesus Christ/believe the gospel prior to receiving water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 16:31; Ephesians 1:13)

In regards to being buried with Him, see - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/romans/romans-6-4.html
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
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Many profess that one need only believe in Jesus to receive everlasting life and quote the following scripture as evidence: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

The following scriptures prove that there is more to believing than a mental acknowledgment of Jesus as the Messiah:
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Matt 7:21
“For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.” Matt 12:50
/QUOTE]
Correct, to believe in Christ is more than mere mental aknowledging.
When a politician runs for office, some will then say they believe in that politician.
They are not saying they believe the individual is a politician, they are saying they believe in what the politician professes.

Likewise, to believe in Christ is to believe in what Christ professes, which is love, truth, justice, humility, and more.
They who believe in these virtues are the children of God.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Correct, to believe in Christ is more than mere mental aknowledging.
When a politician runs for office, some will then say they believe in that politician.
They are not saying they believe the individual is a politician, they are saying they believe in what the politician professes.

Likewise, to believe in Christ is to believe in what Christ professes, which is love, truth, justice, humility, and more.
They who believe in these virtues are the children of God.
Good example about the politician. It's one thing to believe "mental assent" that the individual is a politician, yet it's another thing to believe in what the politician professes and trust in him to lead as a politician. Just like it's one thing to believe "mental assent" that Jesus exists and in certain historical facts about Jesus, yet another thing to believe in Him/trust in Him/rely in Him as Savior. Some people may actually start out believing in a politician (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) then later find out that politician does not line up with their original expectations.

If you read in John 8:31-59, you will see that the Jews who were said to have "believed in Him" turned out to be: slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. *So we can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe in His name/believe in Him" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18).

In John chapter 6, we see that many of Jesus' so called disciples complained and were offended (verses 60-61) about what Jesus said in verses 51-59. These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. So apparently, these alleged disciples of Jesus they set out to be learners and followers of Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, then as soon as Jesus said something that was hard for them to understand and did not line up with their expectations, they left Him.

So to believe in Christ "unto salvation" goes beyond mere "mental assent" belief in the existence of Christ. It also goes beyond merely believing that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." Even the demons believe that.

*We must believe from the heart (Romans 10:9) in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ by TRUSTING in the death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16)