John 3:3

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Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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#41
You cannot worship God speaking tongues that you do not understand. There is no edification for you if there is no knowledge of the conversation. To believe otherwise is utter nonsense.

1 Cor 14:15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

The apostle Paul nerver taught that prayer or worship without knowledge was a positive matter.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
A person's lack of belief in a bible principle does not change the fact that the word is the final authority. Speaking in an unknown tongue is speaking to God via the connection of the Spirit:

"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Cor 14:2
 
Dec 9, 2011
11,755
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#42
The first thing one must do is accept Jesus' sacrifice. That goes without saying. But the word does not tell us to stop there. There is more truth requiring obedience. The righteousness of God is revealed faith by faith. One step of faith after another. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
There is more truth requiring obedience.
If you are talking about progressive sanctification then I agree
Romans 12:1-2
King James Version


1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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#43
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matt 28:19-20

All are to be baptized in Jesus' name in obedience to the command.

The thief was under the OT dispensation. The NT began after Jesus' death, burial and bodily resurrection.
Don't you think I know that age old excuse that the thief was in the old dispensation. The thief in the old dispensation is saved just like in the new covenant/dispensation which is by faith. He admitted he was wrong which means whild on that cross he repented and basically ask Jesus to forgive him and remember him. Jesus clearly responds to the theif by saying "this day you will be with Me in Paradise.

The thief did not get water baptized nor does it say he spoke in tongues. So here is the question for you and footprint? Why would it be easier to get saved in the old dispensation as opposed to the new dispensation? In other words, your making it harder to get saved because you have to get water baptized (which is a work) thereby making Ephesians 2:8-9 void.

I suggest you read Hebrews 1, especially vs6. And as well, here is what Acts 10:44-48. "While Peter was still speaking these words, (what words look at vs43) the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. vs45, And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were AMAZED, (why?) because the GIFT of the Holy Spiri had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. vs46, for they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God, then Peter said,

vs47, Surely no one can refuse water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he? vs48, And he ordered them to baptixed in the name of Jesus Christ." In this text the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit BEFORE Peter commanded them to get baptized.

And if you would think about it how will people who happen to be ill and end up believing in Jesus Christ but it is impossible for them to get water baptized? Sure, were commanded to get water baptized but it is not possible for a "myriad" of circumstances for some. Oh yea, you want me to address Mark 16:16 while I'm at it? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,527
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#44
The thief did not get water baptized nor does it say he spoke in tongues.
Not did he make a blood offering for sin atonement in the temple, as the law of the old covenant required. At least nothing of the sort is recorded.

And Jesus had already died when they went to break the thiefs legs.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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#45
If you accept Christ sacrifice then that would suffice, adding to what Christ did is to crucify Christ once again. One's obedience is the result not a part to obtain salvation.
The following scriptures express that upon belief in Jesus one can receive life through His name. When does one have the name of Jesus applied?


But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. Acts 10:43
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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#46
Also it's a matter of understanding the term justification here. This justification is in the mans sight and not God's sight.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:19-20
 
F

Footprint

Guest
#47
Excuse me but I'm a little confused. I thought that water baptism is commanded "AFTER" one is saved, not a part of doing it to get saved, which btw is a work. By getting water baptised you identify yourself with Jesus Christ as being one of His followers.

We can receive the Holy Ghost before or after water baptism but never before repentance.

Baptism is not a work, it is something that is done to you. Baptism is obedience to the Word of God.


This is also why Matthew 28:19 says, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them (the disciples) in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit." In other words, you get water baptized after your a disciple, not to become a disciple.

We are baptized because...

1. it is a command
2. it is for the remission of sins
3. it is part of the New Birth process


So, this means that you footprint and wansvic are wrong and the crowd is Biblically right. Btw, your also mis-applying Matthew 7:13,14 as it applies to this issue. One more thing, the thief on the cross was not water baptized and Jesus told him he will be in Paradise with Jesus. What was it that saved the thief? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Although Jesus was close to death, he was not yet dead...

Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


-Thank you.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,723
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#48
We can receive the Holy Ghost before or after water baptism but never before repentance.

Baptism is not a work, it is something that is done to you. Baptism is obedience to the Word of God.





We are baptized because...

1. it is a command
2. it is for the remission of sins
3. it is part of the New Birth process





Although Jesus was close to death, he was not yet dead...

Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


-Thank you.
Repentence: Sincere regret or remorse. Did not Jesus know on that cross that the thief expressed repentence thereby saying he will be in Paradise with Jesus? Need I say more. :eek: PS: Btw, your contradicting yourself when you said one can receive the Holy Spirit before or after being water baptised. Plus the command to get water baptized is directed to the person himself, not to the person who will do the actual dunking. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,016
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#49
A person's lack of belief in a bible principle does not change the fact that the word is the final authority. Speaking in an unknown tongue is speaking to God via the connection of the Spirit:

"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Cor 14:2
Taking a verse out of context to create a pretext is unsound doctrine. You cannot honestly take 1 Cor 14:2 and create a conflict with 1 Cor 14:15.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
F

Footprint

Guest
#50
Repentence: Sincere regret or remorse. Did not Jesus know on that cross that the thief expressed repentence thereby saying he will be in Paradise with Jesus? Need I say more. :eek:

My post was clear. You may wish to go back and re-read.



PS: Btw, your contradicting yourself when you said one can receive the Holy Spirit before or after being water baptised.

I had assumed you were aware of those scriptures indicating where baptism was given before or after receiving the Holy Ghost. Would you like me to post them for you?



Plus the command to get water baptized is directed to the person himself, not to the person who will do the actual dunking. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

With your own words we see that the person that is commanded is receiving the baptism from the one "who will do the actual dunking."


-Thank you.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,343
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#51
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

(Jesus uses birth as an earthly example to help the lost Nicodemus who believed in works and didn't understand spiritual things to explain something spiritual to him)

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

(Nicodemus is unable to understand this spiritual lesson even with an earthly example of birth so he uses his earthly reasoning to question Jesus of what it means to be "born again")

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(Jesus is still speaking of brith and trying to relate the two.... born of water = anatomical fluid and born of the Spirit = when God makes His children new and quickens our spirit)

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(again further explaining the two births....of flesh = of water / of Spirit = of God, of spirit)


7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.



(water baptism is not being born of water.....every man/woman is born of water... but unless this man/woman is born again of spirit they will not enter the kingdom of heaven)
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,976
529
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#52
Don't you think I know that age old excuse that the thief was in the old dispensation. The thief in the old dispensation is saved just like in the new covenant/dispensation which is by faith. He admitted he was wrong which means whild on that cross he repented and basically ask Jesus to forgive him and remember him. Jesus clearly responds to the theif by saying "this day you will be with Me in Paradise.

The thief did not get water baptized nor does it say he spoke in tongues. So here is the question for you and footprint? Why would it be easier to get saved in the old dispensation as opposed to the new dispensation? In other words, your making it harder to get saved because you have to get water baptized (which is a work) thereby making Ephesians 2:8-9 void.

I suggest you read Hebrews 1, especially vs6. And as well, here is what Acts 10:44-48. "While Peter was still speaking these words, (what words look at vs43) the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. vs45, And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were AMAZED, (why?) because the GIFT of the Holy Spiri had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. vs46, for they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God, then Peter said,

vs47, Surely no one can refuse water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he? vs48, And he ordered them to baptixed in the name of Jesus Christ." In this text the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit BEFORE Peter commanded them to get baptized.

And if you would think about it how will people who happen to be ill and end up believing in Jesus Christ but it is impossible for them to get water baptized? Sure, were commanded to get water baptized but it is not possible for a "myriad" of circumstances for some. Oh yea, you want me to address Mark 16:16 while I'm at it? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
God set man's responsibility in place. Everyone is instructed to obey.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,976
529
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#53
Not did he make a blood offering for sin atonement in the temple, as the law of the old covenant required. At least nothing of the sort is recorded.

And Jesus had already died when they went to break the thiefs legs.
Jesus' burial and resurrection are expressed, in addition to His death, as requirements for the fulfillment of the gospel. Jesus bodily resurrection gave evidence that He was the first fruit of the rebirth experience put in place for the NT church.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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#54
Taking a verse out of context to create a pretext is unsound doctrine. You cannot honestly take 1 Cor 14:2 and create a conflict with 1 Cor 14:15.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
They stand in agreement with one another.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,016
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#55
They stand in agreement with one another.
They must agree with one another. Your interpretation is where the conflict enters the picture. Paul never encourages the believers at Corinth to pray in unknown tongues. Paul never encouraged speaking in unknown tongues unless there was one present who could translate for the benefit of all present.

Come back to the fold prodigal. Feeding on the husks will never sustain your Spiritual growth. God is good.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
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Texas
#56
don't snooze too long

this thread is actually about water baptism with a baptismal regeneration twist compliments of the op

just as adamant though :cautious:
So, due to my predisposition concerning the quotidian misuse of the scripture that the OP misconceptualized, I pert nigh missed the opportunity to bandy words concerning yet another unfortunate maltreatment of said same passage;
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
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Texas
#57
If we are to ponder all possible molestations of the baptismal sacrament prescribed by the Holy Word, let us endeavor to be original or at least deviate from the customary contretemps. I present to thee for fair hamfisted theological bludgeoning the following text.
"Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"
1 CORINTHIANS 15:29 NASB
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
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#58
The word expresses everyone must be water baptized and receive the infilling of the Holy Ghost. These instructions parallel what Jesus said to Nicodemus.

I believe the thing people miss is the fact that Jesus said to be reborn of water and Spirit. Being born does not entail the creation process per se. Birth refers to coming forth after one has been created. Example: God creates each of us in our mother's womb. The birthing process is the coming forth out of the water one has been immersed in. Life after exiting the waters of the womb will not be maintained if the created baby does not receive the infiltration of surrounding air.

God's natural birth process is a beautiful picture of the spiritual rebirth process that God designed and is seen in His word. Both the natural and spiritual birth processes require water and Spirit. To understand and partake of what God has provided in no way takes away from Him as our savior.

“Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? (come back out of the womb)

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:4-7
You know as well as I do that it takes two people, our parents, to unite together to be born of the flesh.

Likewise it takes two to be born of the spirit and for that to happen, our spirit needs to unite with the spirit of God, our heavenly Father, and we are born of the spirit. We become a new creation not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1Pe 1:23 KJV

Living water is where we find streams and rivers that are full of life, fish and much more. These are streams of living water as opposed to dark stagnant water where life cannot exist which is in the heart of the unbeliever. The Christian has been born again which is compared to living water and the life that is within us is born of the Holy Spirit and we are born into newness of life.

Jesus said to her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."

"Isaiah 12:3 "With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation.")

Jesus came so that we might have life more abundantly. (Joh 10:10 KJV)

In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified. (Joh 7:37-39)
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,105
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#59
The following scriptures express that upon belief in Jesus one can receive life through His name. When does one have the name of Jesus applied?


But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. Acts 10:43
Sure, when one beleves in Christ, then that one can obtain eternal life wihich John 3:16 says and many more that i am wikling to cite refrences of believing to be saved not water baptized which is the result of one's faith
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,105
707
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#60
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:19-20
This simply means a head belief not a heart belief. I think also you ought to follow the context behind which is a vain belief of some sort and believing to be save.. here the devils tremble not the type of repentance and faith.