John 5:3 and Baptismal Regeneration Refuted

[SeaBass]

Born of water and the Spirit is found in John 3:5, not born of baptism and the Spirit. John 3:5 has often been misused as if being born again is somehow the direct result of water baptism. It is assumed, without any proof whatsoever, that "water" signifies baptism. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds foolish, it is no more so than the idea that baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. What Jesus said in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39 fits perfectly with what He said John 3:5. 1 Corinthians 12:13 clearly states by one Spirit (not by H20) we were all baptized into one body.. So "water baptized" is not found in either John 3:5 or 1 Corinthians 12:13, that is plain re-writing of scripture.



Did Paul say "water" baptism in Ephesians 4:5? You are forced to believe this in order to accommodate your flawed theology.



Changing 1 Corinthians 12:13? Some kind of Spirit baptism? Are you completely blind? Read it again. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by ONE SPIRIT we were all baptized into one body.. "one" baptism in Ephesians 4:5 does not mean that there is only one baptism in scripture period. Hebrews 6:2 says baptisms (plural). Matthew 3:11 says I baptize you with 1. water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the 2. Holy Spirit and 3. fire. Can you count? 1 Corinthians 10:2 says the Israelites were baptized into Moses. Literally water baptized into the body of Moses? NO! In Luke 12:50 says I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! Was Jesus talking about water baptism here? NO! There is only ONE baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is SPIRIT baptism, not water baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.. Are you seeing the light yet?



Amen! Yet previously you accused me of changing 1 Corinthians 12:13 in to some kind of Spirit baptism, yet you now admit that 1 Corinthians 12:13 refers to literal Spirit, yet you change "by one Spirit baptized into one body" into water baptism. Where does 1 Corinthians 12:13 mention water?



Jesus simply said "water" in John 3:5 (not baptism) and in John 4:14 Jesus said "water" and specified that this is "living water" (John 4:10,14) and connected it with everlasting life. Jesus also connected "living water" with the Holy Spirit in John 7:37-39, yet no mention of water baptism. So 1 Corinthians 12:13 speaks of literal immersion into the body of Christ by Spirit baptism, not water baptism. Once again, the natural man can only understand natural water.



The anti-salvation through faith in Christ crowd rejects "living water" and "Spirit baptism" thus they set out, using using bad exegesis, to re-write the Bible to get rid of living water from John 3:5 (which fits perfectly with John 4:10,14; 7:37-39) and Spirit baptism from 1 Corinthians 12:13, which fits perfectly with (Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5; 11:16). You still need to learn the difference between water baptism and Spirit baptism. You can't see anything beyond your church of Christ indoctrination.

The phrase "born of water" = water baptism. I can say someone was "born of water" or "water baptized", same thing.

And as I have shown umpteen times the phrase "born of water" of Jn 3:5 is equivalent to "baptized" if 1 Cor 12:13.

Bad exegesis is when you go to a remote text as Jn 7:38 where water is used figuratively then think you can apply that figurative meaning of water into any other text you so choose. There is NOTHING in the context of Jn 3:5 that shows water means anything other than literal water and spirit means anything other than literal spirit. In the context of Jn 3:5 just 18 verses later in verse 23 it speaks of literal water. Will you apply the figurative meaning of water of Jn 7:38 to Jn 3:23? No, because it does not help your position. But you are willing to jump all around over various contexts and apply that figurative meaning of water anywhere you can just to try and get rid of literal immersion in literal water, just to change the text to make it fit your theology. There is no exegetical reason for you doing this, it's just your bias.

In Jn 3:5, if water cannot be literal water then spirit cannot mean literal spirit. There is a consistent INCONSISTENCY people have about this and this inconsistency shows they are applying their theological bias to Jn 3:5.

Eph 4:5 does not say "water baptism" but it doe snot say "spirit baptism" either.

1) Proper exegesis is word is to be taken at its literal meaning, so "one baptizo" in Eph 4:5 means a literal immersion.

F.F. Bruce: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106). Nothing in the context shows baptizo is being used figuratively.

2) Paul water baptized some of the Corinthians himself, 1 Cor 1:14,16. The baptism of Christ's great commission was human administered water baptism that lasts till the end of the world, Mt 28:19,20. So the one baptism of Jn 3:5 and 1 Cor 12:13 must be literal immersion in water.

3) 1 Cor 12:13 does say "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body..."

a) when compared to Jn 3:5 we see that "baptized" of 1 Cor 12:13 is equivalent to "born of WATER" of Jn 3:5, ie, water baptism.

b) if 1 Cor 12:13 is some kind of spirit baptism then why is Paul WATER baptizing Corinthians in 1 Cor 1:14;16 and why did Jesus commission human administered WATER baptism?

c) Jn 4:1 "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
v2 "(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)"

Verse 1 says Jesus baptized but v2 says Jesus baptized not. This is not a contradiction for Jesus baptized no one anyone personally, but He baptized by giving His authority to the disciples to baptize in His name. The Holy Spirit in 1 Cor 12:13 baptizes this same way as Christ. the Spirit does not baptize anyone personally but baptized by giving His authority to baptize within His word. So the Spirit water baptized those Coritnhians in 1 Cor 1:14.16 by having given His authority to Paul to water baptize them.

 

[newbirth]

Nicodemus didn't ask "how can a man be born" -- but how a man can be "born again" -- this indicates that he understood Jesus to be talking of two births, not one (refuting the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] view), and Jesus did not correct him on that understanding.
this also indicates that Nicodemus understood he had already been born once, and that Christ was teaching him that he should be born a second time. (supporting the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] view)

dcontroversial's comment, reiterating what Jesus said there in verse 6, does not agree with the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] view. Jesus said to His disciples that they were clean "by the word" He spoke to them (John 15:3) -- this refutes the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] view too. faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God - and the Spirit is given by faith

the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] view is the only one that holds up, in my understanding.

Being born again of water and the spirit cannot include the water from the flesh birth.....to say that would mean every man is already born of water so what is the point of making the statement......unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. You cannot connect the natural birth with the spiritual birth....That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit.. If Christ is telling you this moment you must be born of water and the spirit, would you say you are already born of water and you only need to be born of the spirit...that would mean you are already halfway into the kingdom....

 

[dcontroversal]

One becomes spirit at the resurrection.

Jesus must have been stupid or misinformed when he TOLD HIS DISCIPLES that the spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh weak when they could not stay awake and pray with him in the garden as the comment was directed at them!

 

[der]

its a sad thing when you have possibilities when it comes to the word of God.

 

[mailmandan]

The phrase "born of water" = water baptism. I can say someone was "born of water" or "water baptized", same thing.

False. Born of water is not born of baptism. Water baptism is not the source or means of becoming born again. Period. But your argument is music to the ears of Campbellites, Roman Catholics, Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals. Read John 4:10,14; 7:37-39 once again to see how Jesus connects "water" with "living water" "thirsts" "drink(s)" "never thirst" "believes in Me" "Holy Spirit" "everlasting life."

And as I have shown umpteen times the phrase "born of water" of Jn 3:5 is equivalent to "baptized" if 1 Cor 12:13.

And as I have shown umpteen times the phrase "born of water" of John 3:5 is equivalent to "living water" in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39. 1 Corinthians 12:13 says by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body..drink into one Spirit. John 4:10 says drink and John 4:14 says drinks and John 7:37 says drink. In John 3:5, Jesus said water (not baptism) and in John 4:14, Jesus said water twice and in John 4:10 and John 7:38, Jesus said living water and in John 7:39, Jesus said Spirit. See how this all fits together? Reading all of these verses together would give one no reason to assume that water baptism is being discussed unless one was looking to read into these passages a preconceived idea or theology.

Bad exegesis is when you go to a remote text as Jn 7:38 where water is used figuratively then think you can apply that figurative meaning of water into any other text you so choose. There is NOTHING in the context of Jn 3:5 that shows water means anything other than literal water and spirit means anything other than literal spirit.

John 4:10,14; 7:37-39 are not remote texts. Same book, Jesus talking. Why would Jesus say that water baptism is the source or means of becoming born again in John 3:5 and then turn around and connect living water (John 4:10,14; 7:38) with the Holy Spirit and everlasting life? Living water is clearly not water baptism.

In the context of Jn 3:5 just 18 verses later in verse 23 it speaks of literal water. Will you apply the figurative meaning of water of Jn 7:38 to Jn 3:23? No, because it does not help your position.

Just 18 verses later? Why didn't Jesus just simply say water baptism to Nicodemus if that's what He meant? Just because Jesus mentions water baptism in the same chapter (18 verses later) does not mean that water in verse 5 is water baptism. Just 10-13 verses later, Jesus said whoever believes in Him, shall not perish, shall have everlasting life, is not condemned. Why didn't Jesus mention water baptism here in connection with everlasting life? Jesus connects believes in Me, living water, Holy Spirit in John 7:37-39 and once again, NO mention of water baptism. This does not help your position at all.

But you are willing to jump all around over various contexts and apply that figurative meaning of water anywhere you can just to try and get rid of literal immersion in literal water, just to change the text to make it fit your theology. There is no exegetical reason for you doing this, it's just your bias.

You jumped 18 verses later in search of water baptism, after Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus was over. 22 - After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. John 3:5 fits perfectly with John 4:10,14; 7:37-39 but you ignore living water in favor of literal water, just to change the text and make it fit your theology. It's your bias theology that has caused you to reject the truth. You would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water.

In Jn 3:5, if water cannot be literal water then spirit cannot mean literal spirit. There is a consistent INCONSISTENCY people have about this and this inconsistency shows they are applying their theological bias to Jn 3:5.

False. John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit..; John 4:10 - drink. John 4:14 - drinks..water..everlasting life; 1 Corinthians 12:13 - ..drink into one Spirit. Where does literal H20 fit in here? It doesn't. Let go of your theological bias, quit fighting the truth and BELIEVE!

Eph 4:5 does not say "water baptism" but it doe snot say "spirit baptism" either.

It says one Lord, one faith, one baptism. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - says one Spirit baptized into one body..drink into one Spirit. Do I need to remind you of the word drink(s) in John 4:10,14; 7:37?

1) Proper exegesis is word is to be taken at its literal meaning, so "one baptizo" in Eph 4:5 means a literal immersion.

That is your theological bias, not proper exegesis. Your biased interpretation is also not in harmony with with 1 Corinthians 12:13.

F.F. Bruce: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106). Nothing in the context shows baptizo is being used figuratively.

Thus saith the Lord or FF Bruce? The funny thing is, even if this one baptism was water baptism, it still does not support your perverted watered down gospel of baptismal regeneration, so your argument is moot. Paul calls for unity and oneness of believers. In 1 Corinthians 1:12,13 we read - Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? In this sense, there is one baptism - in the name of Christ or the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not in the name of someone else. Paul is not saying that only water baptism exists (as you want to believe) in Ephesians 4:5, otherwise nobody would be baptized into the body of Christ. Paul is talking about the fact that there is only one body of Christ! If we go to the beginning of chapter 4, we see that he was trying to keep Christians from "factionizing." In Ephesians 4:1-6 we read: I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. If you have been baptized in the name of Christ/the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit - it the same in one church as it is in any other! Yet, there are so many that will not "accept" baptism from another church. You must be baptized in "their church" for it to count. It is ironic that most of the people who reject baptism with the Holy Spirit as a separate experience from water baptism today, also reject everyone else's water baptism.

2) Paul water baptized some of the Corinthians himself, 1 Cor 1:14,16. The baptism of Christ's great commission was human administered water baptism that lasts till the end of the world, Mt 28:19,20. So the one baptism of Jn 3:5 and 1 Cor 12:13 must be literal immersion in water.

Must be to accommodate your theology, but must not be in order to harmonize with John 4:10,14; 7:37-39; 1 Corinthians 12:13. You can't continue to ignore water, living water, drink, Spirit, everlasting life, one Spirit baptized into one body, everlasting life in these passages of scripture, which fit perfectly with John 3:5.

3) 1 Cor 12:13 does say "

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body..."

By ONE SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit does the baptizing, places us into the body of Christ. Not plain ordinary H20. When does this take place? Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

a) when compared to Jn 3:5 we see that "baptized" of 1 Cor 12:13 is equivalent to "born of WATER" of Jn 3:5, ie, water baptism.

Not water baptism, but LIVING WATER and SPIRIT BAPTISM. Please continue to meditate on John 4:10,14; 7:37-39; 1 Corinthians 12:13 and ask the Lord to reveal the truth to you.

b) if 1 Cor 12:13 is some kind of spirit baptism then why is Paul WATER baptizing Corinthians in 1 Cor 1:14;16 and why did Jesus commission human administered WATER baptism?

What do you mean some kind of spirit baptism? Paul clearly stated by one SPIRIT we were all baptized into one body. In Acts 11:16, we read - John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Why is it so difficult for you to understand the distinction between these two separate baptisms? Why wouldn't Paul water baptized Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 1:14,16? That still does not change the fact that Paul said by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body in 1 Corinthians 12:13. Why didn't Paul say water baptized into one body? Because this is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

c) Jn 4:1 "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
v2 "(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)"

Verse 1 says Jesus baptized but v2 says Jesus baptized not. This is not a contradiction for Jesus baptized no one anyone personally, but He baptized by giving His authority to the disciples to baptize in His name.

I know that.

The Holy Spirit in 1 Cor 12:13 baptizes this same way as Christ. the Spirit does not baptize anyone personally but baptized by giving His authority to baptize within His word. So the Spirit water baptized those Coritnhians in 1 Cor 1:14.16 by having given His authority to Paul to water baptize them.

1 Corinthians 1:14 - I thank God that "I" (Holy Spirit or Paul?) baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius. 16 - Yes, "I" (Holy Spirit or Paul?) also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. Who did the water baptizing? PAUL. Who baptizes us into the body of Christ? HOLY SPIRIT. These are two distinct baptisms (Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5; 11:16). If the truth is what you are looking for, then you will find it in God's Word. If accommodating the biased theology of your church is the only thing that you are interested in, then you won't accept the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you.

 

[newbirth]

Just 18 verses later? Why didn't Jesus just simply say water baptism to Nicodemus if that's what He meant? Just because Jesus mentions water baptism in the same chapter (18 verses later) does not mean that water in verse 5 is water baptism. Just 10-13 verses later, Jesus said whoever believes in Him, shall not perish, shall have everlasting life, is not condemned. Why didn't Jesus mention water baptism here in connection with everlasting life? Jesus connects believes in Me, living water, Holy Spirit in John 7:37-39 and once again, NO mention of water baptism. This does not help your position at all.



.

you say born of water does not mean water baptism ...it means spirit baptism ...So what Jesus was saying is ....[SUP]
5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water(spirit baptism/living water/Holy spirit) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

How can he refer to water as spirit and then say spirit again...does not make sense...you want the mention of water baptism...because you don't believe...Jesus received the Holy Ghost after he was baptised...he practice what he preaches...you have your own order....

 

[posthuman]

Being born again of water and the spirit cannot include the water from the flesh birth.....to say that would mean every man is already born of water so what is the point of making the statement......

Jesus says to Nicodemus: "you must be born again" -- that is the point of continuing, and telling him that he has to be born not only of water (once) but also of spirit (again).

i'm only talking about the context of Jesus & Nicodemus' conversation. it's true that in other places, for instance with the woman at the well, Christ refers to living water, which is spirit just as much as baptism with fire is spirit. here, Christ is not telling Nicodemus that he must dip in a mikveh.

unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. You cannot connect the natural birth with the spiritual birth....That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit.. If Christ is telling you this moment you must be born of water and the spirit, would you say you are already born of water and you only need to be born of the spirit

you're misquoting. it's:

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
(John 3:3)
How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?
(John 3:4)
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(John 3:5-6)

"must be born again"
presupposes one birth; proscribes a second.

flesh begets flesh. 1[SUP]st[/SUP] birth. described as by water.
spirit begets spirit. 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] birth. described as by spirit.

if Jesus is referring to water baptism at all, i can only think it might be that Nicodemus had been baptized by John. the Sanhedrin would have frowned upon it, but they wouldn't have approved him coming to talk to Jesus either, and he came by night. it's plausible this man also had somewhat secretly met with John.
so the only way i can understand this text having anything to do with baptism makes it tantamount to flesh being born of flesh.
but Nicodemus asked if he should crawl back into his mother's womb. any reasonable person ought to be able to see that Nicodemus understood Christ to mean physical, natural childbirth as the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] birth, not baptism in water.
so i am unconvinced that this text is talking about water baptism AT ALL.

...that would mean you are already halfway into the kingdom....

watch that second step, it's a doozy!

 

[mailmandan]

you say born of water does not mean water baptism ...it means spirit baptism ...So what Jesus was saying is ....[SUP]
5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water(spirit baptism/living water/Holy spirit) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Just as water enters into us when we drink it, so the Spirit enters into us when we come to Jesus and "drink," when we believe in Him (John 7:37-39). The Holy Spirit is the source of living water which cleanses believers and brings them eternal life. "The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." (John 4:14). Can you say that about plain ordinary H20?

The water of the Spirit flows into our innermost parts when we come to Jesus and "drink." Plain ordinary H20 cannot do this. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds foolish, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or means of becoming born again.

How can he refer to water as spirit and then say spirit again...does not make sense...you want the mention of water baptism...because you don't believe...Jesus received the Holy Ghost after he was baptised...he practice what he preaches...you have your own order....

So you are saying that the Holy Spirit in essence is this living water and that's all the Holy Spirit is? Jesus is the light of the world, but does that mean the essence of Jesus is light and that's all that He is? Living water makes sense when you understand that Jesus was not referring to water baptism, but to the need for cleansing. Spiritual washing/purification of the soul is not accomplished by plain ordinary H20, but by the Holy Spirit through the washing of regeneration at the moment of salvation.

What cleanses us on the inside/flows out of our hearts? Plain ordinary H20 or living water? I don't believe in plain ordinary H20 as the means of my salvation, I BELIEVE IN JESUS (John 7:37-39). In regards to the baptism of Jesus: Luke 3:22 - And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased." Did that happen at your baptism? Did Jesus need to repent and believe the gospel? The order is believe, receive the Holy Spirit, then water baptism follows for believers (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17). You reverse the order.

 

[newbirth]

Jesus says to Nicodemus: "you must be born again" -- that is the point of continuing, and telling him that he has to be born not only of water (once) but also of spirit (again).

that cannot be so you are adding to the word...born again is the finished product...born of water and the spirit is the way to become born again, that is how one enters the kingdom...who gave you authority to separate born of water and the spirit...what God put together let no man put asunder...
you are taking water to mean natural and you are forgetting the beginning of Christ's ministry...His baptism and receiving of the Holy Spirit is a testimony and witness for us...we enter into the kingdom in the same way....

i'm only talking about the context of Jesus & Nicodemus' conversation. it's true that in other places, for instance with the woman at the well, Christ refers to living water, which is spirit just as much as baptism with fire is spirit. here, Christ is not telling Nicodemus that he must dip in a mikveh.

You choose to believe a doctrine of man rather than hold fast to that which the spirit of God has placed in you

you're misquoting. it's:

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
(John 3:3)
How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?
(John 3:4)
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(John 3:5-6)

"must be born again"
presupposes one birth; proscribes a second.

flesh begets flesh. 1[SUP]st[/SUP] birth. described as by water.
spirit begets spirit. 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] birth. described as by spirit.

my friend God's word is in simplicity ...not in the wisdom of man...we are born in the flesh....we must be born again... of water and the spirit ....just as Christ was

if Jesus is referring to water baptism at all, i can only think it might be that Nicodemus had been baptized by John. the Sanhedrin would have frowned upon it, but they wouldn't have approved him coming to talk to Jesus either, and he came by night. it's plausible this man also had somewhat secretly met with John.
so the only way i can understand this text having anything to do with baptism makes it tantamount to flesh being born of flesh.
but Nicodemus asked if he should crawl back into his mother's womb. any reasonable person ought to be able to see that Nicodemus understood Christ to mean physical, natural childbirth as the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] birth, not baptism in water.
so i am unconvinced that this text is talking about water baptism AT ALL.

watch that second step, it's a doozy!

Nicodemus understood nothing that is why he asked the question..and the emphasis is placed on being born again...you must be born again to see the kingdom...how can I be born again ? You must be born of water and the spirit to enter the kingdom....does not say you are born of water and all you need is to be born of the spirit...

If the word of God does not convince you, how can I? If you choose a doctrine of man over God's word...then it is you who must convince yourself...

 

[newbirth]

Just as water enters into us when we drink it, so the Spirit enters into us when we come to Jesus and "drink," when we believe in Him (John 7:37-39). The Holy Spirit is the source of living water which cleanses believers and brings them eternal life. "The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." (John 4:14). Can you say that about plain ordinary H20?

The water of the Spirit flows into our innermost parts when we come to Jesus and "drink." Plain ordinary H20 cannot do this. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds foolish, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or means of becoming born again.

Now you are telling God how to do his thing...you speak as Naaman ...How did Christ begin his ministry? we are born into his kingdom in like manner..

So you are saying that the Holy Spirit in essence is this living water and that's all the Holy Spirit is? Jesus is the light of the world, but does that mean the essence of Jesus is light and that's all that He is? Living water makes sense when you understand that Jesus was not referring to water baptism, but to the need for cleansing. Spiritual washing/purification of the soul is not accomplished by plain ordinary H20, but by the Holy Spirit through the washing of regeneration at the moment of salvation.

Go back and read what I wrote and you will see I did not say that or anything close to it....

What cleanses us on the inside/flows out of our hearts? Plain ordinary H20 or living water? I don't believe in plain ordinary H20 as the means of my salvation, I BELIEVE IN JESUS (John 7:37-39). In regards to the baptism of Jesus: Luke 3:22 - And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased." Did that happen at your baptism? Did Jesus need to repent and believe the gospel? The order is believe, receive the Holy Spirit, then water baptism follows for believers (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17). You reverse the order.

Acts 2:37-39King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?(they believe)

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent(they repent), and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins(they are baptised for the remission of sins), and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost(they receive the HS as promised).

[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Vs 39 says vs 38 is the promise to all...that is how it is done...how can you say the order is reversed?

 

[posthuman]

If the word of God does not convince you, how can I? If you choose a doctrine of man over God's word...then it is you who must convince yourself...

the scripture seems pretty clear and straightforward to me, too.

only i'm hearing that Nicodemus didn't just have to be born again,
but had to be born again and again! three times! born of flesh, born of water, and then born of spirit!
the book records some being baptized of water, and not having the spirit, and some having the spirit not being baptized - it seems to me that is for our edification, to know that water baptism and the pouring out of the Spirit are not the same thing!

there is only one faith and one baptism, right? is that baptism by water or by spirit?
is spirit born of water? Christ did not baptize anyone with water, but washed by His Word! and His voice is like many rushing waters

(not by works that [are] in righteousness that we did but according to His kindness,) He did save us, through a bathing of regeneration, and a renewing of the Holy Spirit, which He poured upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour
(Titus 3:5-6, YLT)

it is not by my hand, but by the Lord's, that i am regenerated and renewed, that through His Spirit.
if this "bathing of regeneration" is by physical water, by the hand of a pastor or evangelist, or a righteous, ritual act i have done out of a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3:21), then didn't i save myself? wasn't i saved by a preacher?
i was already saved when i became baptized! it was the spirit in me that moved me to do it, to demonstrate the seal He put on my heart, and confess His name before men!
Jesus alone saves! there is no other name under heaven with power to regenerate and redeem!
i can't in good conscience say that anything but His work effects my justification, salvation, regeneration, renewal and redemption.

 

[posthuman]

Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades. Here a great number of disabled people used to lie—the blind, the lame, the paralyzed. One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, “Do you want to get well?”
“Sir,” the invalid replied, “I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
(John 5:2-8)

this fellow was made whole, and never washed in the pool.
-- regenerated by the Word spoken to him!

 

[ELECT]

One becomes spirit at the resurrection.

Was Jesus a spirit when He was resurrected ?
Is Jesus a spirit in heaven ?

 

[newbirth]

Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades. Here a great number of disabled people used to lie—the blind, the lame, the paralyzed. One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, “Do you want to get well?”
“Sir,” the invalid replied, “I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
(John 5:2-8)

this fellow was made whole, and never washed in the pool.
-- regenerated by the Word spoken to him!

he obeyed Christ's instructions...you make your own instructions...here is the promise again ...do this for thus and you shall receive that...show me where what you are saying has a promise to receive the gift of the HS...go ahead and make Peter a liar....
Acts 2:37-39King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[ELECT]

he obeyed Christ's instructions...you make your own instructions...here is the promise again ...do this for thus and you shall receive that...show me where what you are saying has a promise to receive the gift of the HS...go ahead and make Peter a liar....
Acts 2:37-39King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Did the thief on the cross receive the Holy Spirit ?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Did the thief on the cross receive the Holy Spirit ?

The thief on the cross was before Jesus died.
Jesus said He had to go away before the helper the Holy Spirit comes to us.

 

[newbirth]

the scripture seems pretty clear and straightforward to me, too.

only i'm hearing that Nicodemus didn't just have to be born again,
but had to be born again and again! three times! born of flesh, born of water, and then born of spirit!
the book records some being baptized of water, and not having the spirit, and some having the spirit not being baptized - it seems to me that is for our edification, to know that water baptism and the pouring out of the Spirit are not the same thing!

there is only one faith and one baptism, right? is that baptism by water or by spirit?
is spirit born of water? Christ did not baptize anyone with water, but washed by His Word! and His voice is like many rushing waters

(not by works that [are] in righteousness that we did but according to His kindness,) He did save us, through a bathing of regeneration, and a renewing of the Holy Spirit, which He poured upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour
(Titus 3:5-6, YLT)

it is not by my hand, but by the Lord's, that i am regenerated and renewed, that through His Spirit.
if this "bathing of regeneration" is by physical water, by the hand of a pastor or evangelist, or a righteous, ritual act i have done out of a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3:21), then didn't i save myself? wasn't i saved by a preacher?
i was already saved when i became baptized! it was the spirit in me that moved me to do it, to demonstrate the seal He put on my heart, and confess His name before men!
Jesus alone saves! there is no other name under heaven with power to regenerate and redeem!
i can't in good conscience say that anything but His work effects my justification, salvation, regeneration, renewal and redemption.

Acts 9:16-18King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.


Maybe you can run a parallel of 1 John 5:5-10 with the (TLB) and your favourite version of the scripture and see what you make of it...
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But who could possibly fight and win this battle except by believing that Jesus is truly the Son of God? [SUP]6-8 [/SUP]And we know he is, because God said so with a voice from heaven when Jesus was baptized, and again as he was facing death[SUP][a][/SUP]—yes, not only at his baptism but also as he faced death.* And the Holy Spirit, forever truthful, says it too. So we have these three witnesses: the voice of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, the voice from heaven at Christ’s baptism, and the voice before he died.* And they all say the same thing: that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.* [SUP]9 [/SUP]We believe men who witness in our courts, and so surely we can believe whatever God declares. And God declares that Jesus is his Son. [SUP]10 [/SUP]All who believe this know in their hearts that it is true. If anyone doesn’t believe this, he is actually calling God a liar because he doesn’t believe what God has said about his Son.

God declared Jesus his son at baptism...does he not declare you also being baptised into Christ? It is a shame how you take baptism so lightly when God sees it important enough to make a declaration at that point about his son...

 

[newbirth]

Did the thief on the cross receive the Holy Spirit ?

what does the scripture say? ....is your question in ignorance?.....or ...folly...The HS came at pentecost....while he was on earth the Son of God had power to forgive sins....John 5 Jesus met the same man who received his sight and told him his sins were forgiven...
Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. .....one cannot limit God.....

 

[mailmandan]

Now you are telling God how to do his thing...you speak as Naaman ...How did Christ begin his ministry? we are born into his kingdom in like manner..

God is telling us how He does His thing and you are not listening. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water which cleanses believers and brings them eternal life. "The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." (John 4:14). Can you say that about plain ordinary H20? What cleanses us on the inside/flows out of our hearts? (John 7:37-39). Plain ordinary H20 or living water? Christ did not need to become born again as we do.

In regards to Naaman, in the first place, if being healed from leprosy is an illustration of salvation, we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. Read it in (Luke 5:12-15). No water is found here. Secondly, Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptized unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins. The NT uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, not of salvation through H20. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with salvation through baptism, but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out (2 Kings 5:15).

Go back and read what I wrote and you will see I did not say that or anything close to it....

You said, "How can he refer to water as spirit and then say spirit again...does not make sense." You are saying that living water is Spirit and that born of water is water baptism which equates to born of water baptism. Now go back and answer my questions.

Acts 2:37-39King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (they believe)

Their belief at that point was only "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah and that they were guilty of crucifying Him. That is not saving belief yet. They still need to repent "change their minds" and believe/trust in Jesus as the all sufficient means of their salvation. In verse 40, they heard more from Peter and in verse 41, when they gladly received his word, they had repented and believed in Jesus for salvation. Notice they said, "what shall we do?" Notice in Acts 16:30, the question is asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." *What happened to baptism?

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent(they repent), and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins(they are baptised for the remission of sins), and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost(they receive the HS as promised).

[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Vs 39 says vs 38 is the promise to all...that is how it is done...how can you say the order is reversed?

As I already explained to you numerous times. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 10:43-47 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43? Why do you reverse the order here? They believed and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism.

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism? Again, they believed and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism.

Acts 15:8,9 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[EmethAlethia]

I went through this topic with a fine tooth comb for someone from the Church of Christ. 30 pages or so, with graphs, and every passage that might apply considered. Quite in depth.
If you want the complete study, let me know. Maybe I can e-mail it, or even post it somewhere. (Open for suggestions) That said, one of the biggest issues was what I bring up with everyone holding to this belief:

Question: "You believe that water baptism is a requirement for salvation, right?"

Answer: "Yes, absolutely."

Question: Would you ever consider sharing a gospel message with someone and leaving out the part about water baptism being essential?"

Answer: "Never."

Question: "How about one time in a hundred? Might you leave out water baptism one time in a hundred?"

Answer: "No. It is an essential part of salvation. I do not give partial salvation messages. All of what is required I ALWAYS share."

Me: "I am quite sure that all of the writers of scripture, and the Apostles, agree with you. All of the essentials for each person, in each of the circumstances they were found, were ALL shared with everyone they were witnessing to."

Question: "This brings up an issue though. If water baptism is a requirement for salvation, why is it that in over 70% of the places where the gospel message is given, water baptism is not mentioned at all? Here are all of the places in scripture where the message is given. The ones highlighted are the ones where water baptism is "mentioned" at all."

The problem with all false beliefs, including the ones you and I still have, is that we have gathered the passages and facts that we can use to prove our beliefs true and all opposing beliefs false, and we interpret everything in the light of our, now infallible, beliefs.

How many people still believe in good Friday and Easter Sunday, in spite of the fact that to do so makes Jesus a false prophet worthy of being stoned to death, discrediting all of the New Testament as well? Yes, that one belief is that important. You can't get three days and three nights out of Friday night, Saturday Day, and a partial Saturday night. (The women showed up while it was still dark and He was already gone.) The facts to get to the truth are available to those willing to work to get them, but for most people their beliefs are enough. Truth doesn't matter.


We tolerate tons of inconsistencies between our beliefs and what scripture says God says and does. For example, David had 5 wives, and kids with 4 of them, BEFORE HE EVER COMMITTED ADULTERY. How many wives and kids by them do you need to have before you commit adultery?

Solomon never committed adultery at all according to scripture. God reproved him regarding sin with his wives, but it wasn't over lust, having sex with a thousand women, or adultery. Have you picked beliefs that make God / Jesus inconsistent? Why isn't Solomon the poster child for rampant ungodly lust? Are our modern definitions what the word of God said and meant, or do we merely pick and choose what we need to believe what we want, just like those from the church of Christ?

Do we close our eyes and stick our fingers in our ears and say "La, La, La..." over to ourselves loudly when the inconsistencies between our beliefs and the scriptures are pointed out? Do we love the truth more than our beliefs, or do we draw near to it only with our lips?