John 5:3 and Baptismal Regeneration Refuted

Alligator · Sep 8, 2014

I went through this topic with a fine tooth comb for someone from the Church of Christ. 30 pages or so, with graphs, and every passage that might apply considered. Quite in depth.
If you want the complete study, let me know. Maybe I can e-mail it, or even post it somewhere. (Open for suggestions) That said, one of the biggest issues was what I bring up with everyone holding to this belief:

Question: "You believe that water baptism is a requirement for salvation, right?"

Answer: "Yes, absolutely."

Question: Would you ever consider sharing a gospel message with someone and leaving out the part about water baptism being essential?"

Answer: "Never."

Question: "How about one time in a hundred? Might you leave out water baptism one time in a hundred?"

Answer: "No. It is an essential part of salvation. I do not give partial salvation messages. All of what is required I ALWAYS share."

Me: "I am quite sure that all of the writers of scripture, and the Apostles, agree with you. All of the essentials for each person, in each of the circumstances they were found, were ALL shared with everyone they were witnessing to."

Question: "This brings up an issue though. If water baptism is a requirement for salvation, why is it that in over 70% of the places where the gospel message is given, water baptism is not mentioned at all? Here are all of the places in scripture where the message is given. The ones highlighted are the ones where water baptism is "mentioned" at all."

The problem with all false beliefs, including the ones you and I still have, is that we have gathered the passages and facts that we can use to prove our beliefs true and all opposing beliefs false, and we interpret everything in the light of our, now infallible, beliefs.

How many people still believe in good Friday and Easter Sunday, in spite of the fact that to do so makes Jesus a false prophet worthy of being stoned to death, discrediting all of the New Testament as well? Yes, that one belief is that important. You can't get three days and three nights out of Friday night, Saturday Day, and a partial Saturday night. (The women showed up while it was still dark and He was already gone.) The facts to get to the truth are available to those willing to work to get them, but for most people their beliefs are enough. Truth doesn't matter.

We tolerate tons of inconsistencies between our beliefs and what scripture says God says and does. For example, David had 5 wives, and kids with 4 of them, BEFORE HE EVER COMMITTED ADULTERY. How many wives and kids by them do you need to have before you commit adultery?

Solomon never committed adultery at all according to scripture. God reproved him regarding sin with his wives, but it wasn't over lust, having sex with a thousand women, or adultery. Have you picked beliefs that make God / Jesus inconsistent? Why isn't Solomon the poster child for rampant ungodly lust? Are our modern definitions what the word of God said and meant, or do we merely pick and choose what we need to believe what we want, just like those from the church of Christ?

Do we close our eyes and stick our fingers in our ears and say "La, La, La..." over to ourselves loudly when the inconsistencies between our beliefs and the scriptures are pointed out? Do we love the truth more than our beliefs, or do we draw near to it only with our lips?

How many times must baptism be specifically mentioned in conversion cases for it to "count"? Most everyone will acknowledge that repentance is required for salvation, but it is mentioned very few times. Just because it is nit specifically mentioned, doesn't mean it didn't happen. In those scriptures where it is mentioned, it is quite clear. Faith is mentioned a number of times because it is the foundation of Christianity. Without faith, baptism and repentance would be useless.

posthuman · Sep 8, 2014

newbirth said:

He was called the Son of God at His birth, and even before this, in the Psalms and Prophets that testify of Him.
before the earth was, He is.
He didn't "become" the Son of God when He was baptized - even John didn't think Him in need of baptism or that John himself was in any way worthy to baptize him. John called Him "the Lamb of God" as soon as he saw Him approaching, not only after He had been baptized. the purpose of Christ's baptism wasn't to regenerate Christ, and the purpose of the sign that John saw was to be a sign, a confirmation and declaration, not to signify that Christ at this point became the Son.

posthuman · Sep 8, 2014

newbirth said:

we don't make our own instructions.

do you think the scriptures teach that physical wetting of ones body is a profound, powerful and mystical act that has a direct spiritual result? they don't, and our friend Peter tries to make that clear:

this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
(1 Peter 3:21-22)

water symbolizes what saves us. physical acts do not produce spiritual regeneration. spiritual regeneration effects corporeal change and corporeal action. Paul argues the same, writing to the Galatians - if we receive the gospel in spirit, fleshly actions do not perfect it. it's the other way around; His spirit works in us to engender obedience; corporeal obedience does not of itself engender spiritual change.

we are saved by the resurrection of Christ, not by an evangelist pushing our head under the water and reciting magical words. the washing that works salvation is by His blood, not tap water.

Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever
(Revelation 1:5-6)

as Paul puts it, we are baptized into His death (Romans 6:3) -- if baptism isn't a symbol, perhaps we are doing it wrong, and the evangelist should hold us down until we actually drown?

the thing that i think many of us don't take time to consider is what water baptism actually is. when we read what a lot of people call 'the great commission' it is more than an instruction to the apostles to baptize, but to make disciples. as i understand it, stepping into a mikveh and being ritually washed by a teacher is a public declaration of intent to become a disciple of that teacher. it's like a hazing ceremony for fraternities, or a pledge of allegiance to a flag. one actually becomes a member of an association when one pays the membership fee, or a citizen of a country by birth or completion of the requirements of the law. water baptism is neither the payment of a fee - Christ has paid our debt - nor is it birth - the Spirit regenerates us. flesh begets flesh; spirit begets spirit, and water begets water.

i have been baptized in water. anyone who believes and follows Jesus should be baptized in water. no one should be deceived into thinking that H[SUB]2[/SUB]O is what works salvation; there is only one name under heaven by which we must be saved - Jesus. He says "come, follow me" -- if we are given grace to be faithful to do so, we will be faithful to do as He did, and to confess the discipleship in our hearts openly with the obedience of our flesh.

i only contend over this so that Jesus Christ may be glorified, not a bathtub. Christ is the author and finisher of my faith, not charity, not communion, not congregational worship, not study, not prayer, not any righteous or obedient work -- Christ.

posthuman · Sep 8, 2014

newbirth said:

if i took baptism lightly, i would think and talk of it as though it were by water.

posthuman · Sep 8, 2014

who baptized John the baptizer?

newbirth · Sep 8, 2014

mailmandan said:

Not understanding the scripture is different from rejecting the truth. When one goes around grasping at 101 scripture verses trying to disprove easily understood straight forward scripture, how can they see the truth?.....
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?(what baptism is this?)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.(after what baptism should we walk in newness of life?)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: ( what baptism is being referred to as planted together in the likeness of his death?)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.( is this not saying the old man is crucified with Christ at baptism? and henceforth we should not serve sin)

newbirth · Sep 8, 2014

posthuman said:

Where did I say become?...Where did I say regenerate? did I not say declare? Are you implying I said those things?....

and I am not talking about what was seen but what was heard....That is the testimony of God
Matthew 3:16-17King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

mailmandan · Sep 8, 2014

newbirth said:

Why do you try to disprove easily understood straight forward scripture?

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. What happened to baptism?

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because (he has not been water baptized? NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.. *What happened to baptism?

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Through faith and baptism or through faith? After reading these easily understood straight forward scriptures, how do you still cling to baptismal regeneration?

We are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ. How does this happen? *Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise... In what sense are we "water" baptized "into Christ?" In the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" indicating their oneness, or union, with him as their leader (1 Corinthians 10:2) just as through water baptism we indicate our oneness, or union with Christ as our Lord and Savior. Now does 1 Corinthians 10:2 teach that the Israelites were literally water baptized into the body of Moses? Absolutely not.

You are still confusing the picture with the reality. Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before water baptism. "Into His death," into union with His death, which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance.

Water baptism pictures a person being buried with Christ (submersion under water) and being raised to new life with Christ (emergence from water). This symbolizes the person's union with, and incorporation into Christ by the action of the Holy Spirit which previously took place when we believed the gospel (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13). Water baptism is an outward, physical symbol of the inward, spiritual conversion of Christians. In regards to verses 3-5, the allusion is to the SYMBOLISM of baptism which was the OUTWARD SIGN of the separation. Baptized into water is not the same as being baptized into the body of Christ. Christ is not the water. Water baptism as a picture of death and resurrection symbolizes our likeness to Christ in his death and resurrection. One is the picture or likeness of the other. Water baptism is not the reality but is a picture of the reality.

newbirth · Sep 8, 2014

posthuman said:

Peter tries to make it clear? Peter made it very clear...
1 Peter 3:20-22New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[SUP][a][/SUP] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [SUP]22 [/SUP]who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

eight people were saved through water..... and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also...(clear as day baptism saves you) but you say how can baptism save me?...It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

1 Peter 3:20-22Living Bible (TLB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]spirits of those who, long before in the days of Noah, had refused to listen to God, though he waited patiently for them while Noah was building the ark. Yet only eight persons were saved from drowning in that terrible flood. [SUP]21 [/SUP](That, by the way, is what baptism pictures for us: In baptism we show that we have been saved from death and doom by the resurrection of Christ;[SUP][a][/SUP] not because our bodies are washed clean by the water but because in being baptized we are turning to God and asking him to cleanse our hearts from sin.) [SUP]22 [/SUP]And now Christ is in heaven, sitting in the place of honor next to God the Father, with all the angels and powers of heaven bowing before him and obeying him.

1 Peter 3:20-22American Standard Version (ASV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]who is one the right hand of God, having gone into heaven; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

1 Peter 3:20-22Names of God Bible (NOG)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]They are like those who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while Noah built the ship. In this ship a few people—eight in all—were saved by water. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you. Baptism doesn’t save by removing dirt from the body. Rather, baptism is a request to God for a clear conscience. It saves you through Yeshua Christ, who came back from death to life. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Christ has gone to heaven where he has the highest position that God gives. Angels, rulers, and powers have been placed under his authority.

kennethcadwell · Sep 8, 2014

Alligator said:

I see how every one gives their opinion, and gives scriptures to help or try to help their opinion, but I just simply go by what our Lord Jesus Christ said;

Mark 16:16[SUP] [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

newbirth · Sep 8, 2014

posthuman said:

2 Timothy 2:23
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

posthuman · Sep 8, 2014

newbirth said:

you wrote as though He wasn't declared before John baptized Him; there is a popular deception that Jesus was merely a man who somehow attained deity at the time of His baptism, and the title of the thread is "baptismal regeneration"
God declared salvation & grace to me long before i was baptized. He knew me before i was formed, and the plans He has for me. how could anyone have been baptized into His discipleship unless they had first heard the Word? no one comes to Him except that He first draw them.
it's just as ridiculous to me to say that Jesus was not, or was not known as, or had not been declared as the Son of God, the Christ and Messiah until such point as John baptized Him -- it's just as ridiculous to say that someone could be baptized into the faith without having any knowledge of the faith. what are we talking about here, infant dedication? baptism of the dead?

newbirth said:

i'm talking about what was heard, too.

And the angel said to them, “Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord."
(Luke 2:10-11)

it should be understood by those looking for the Christ to come that He would be the Son of God. there are a number of OT references to this effect.
before even this, Gabriel appeared to Mary and told her that she would conceive and bear the Son of God (Luke 1:30-35).
when Jesus was a boy, long before He was baptized, He called God His father (Luke 2:49).

He was Lord long before the disciples saw Him transfigured. before time, HE IS. just because they saw Him glorified at that point does not mean He wasn't glorified beforehand, and doesn't mean that we have no salvation until we see Him transfigured too.

maybe i'm missing your point, or maybe there really wasn't one?
do you mean that since there was a sign given at His baptism that baptism with water is necessary for salvation?
there was also a sign given at Cana. that doesn't mean we have to drink wine at a wedding in order to be commended to God.

posthuman · Sep 8, 2014

newbirth said:

eight people were saved by an ark, saved from water. that water saved them by washing away the wicked people they had lived among, so that they were saved from sin by water which destroyed wickedness. the filth of the flesh was put away by a flood. even so, sin remained in the world.

this symbolizes the washing that now saves us. it is not the washing of the flesh that saves us - it is the washing of our souls. it's not dirt and sweat that must be removed - it is sin. water does not remove sin. there is only one thing that removes sin, and that is what we are truly baptized with - the blood of Jesus.

Peter says that we are saved by the resurrection of Christ - he is not talking about how Jesus isn't still holding His breath underwater somewhere along the Jordan river, but in fact rose out of the water. He's talking about how Jesus rose from the tomb. if Christ had ended His ministry with water baptism, and never gone on to shed His blood for our atonement, and to be raised again for our redemption, we would not be saved by imitating His baptism.

we are saved by the resurrection of Christ - no argument, yes? His resurrection did not take place at His baptism. the baptism that connects us to His death, burial and resurrection is baptism by His blood.
flesh begets flesh, spirit begets spirit.

Peter tried to make it clear. he specifically said that the baptism that saves us is not washing with water.
but humans love rituals and idols. we want some tangible, physical thing to point at and adore. so people misunderstand him and worship a baptismal font, and ascribe the glory of God to taking a bath.

but it's not the washing of the flesh. it's the answer of faith.

Peter & John agree, don't they? they preach the same gospel?
if John says that Christ's blood washes away our sin (1 John 1:7), how is it that Peter could say water washes away sin? didn't Peter make a point to say that it wasn't the washing of dirt from the body that saves us?

newbirth · Sep 9, 2014

posthuman said:

you are very confused

How can you compare words attributed to God with those attributed to an angel?

not because of a sign but because he said so...

you make all kinds of excuse to deny the word of God, because of your doctrine ...if you believe your doctrine more than the scripture what can I say to you?

mailmandan · Sep 9, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he that believeth not shall be damned. The omission of baptized with "believeth not" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief.

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation (dipped or condemned), then Jesus surely would have mentioned it in the following verses (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). Do you just simply go by what the Lord Jesus Christ said there 9 different times? As we can clearly see, what is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of those complete statements? BELIEVES. What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

SeaBass · Sep 9, 2014

mailmandan said:

You're still using bad exegesis. Just because water is being used figurative in Jn 7:38 does NOT mean it is being used figuratively in Jn 3:5 or anywhere else. You cannot, no matter how much you want to, make water in Jn 3:5 figurative just because "water" in Jn 7:38 is figurative. If Jn 7:38 makes "water" in Jn 3:5 figurative then why doesn't Jn 7:38 make "water" in Jn 3:23 also figurative? So it is nothing but bad exegesis and your theological bias that is perverting the meaning of "water" in Jn 3:5 causing the inconsistency that spirit is literal spirit but in no way can you allow water to mean literal water in Jn 3:5. So you have not remotely shown that water of John 3:5 is figurative and not literal.

If you can make "water" in Jn 3:5 to mean something other than literal water, then anyone can take any word of the bible and make it mean anything they so choose to....all contexts are simply to be ignored.

Similarly, you have shown no proof that baptizo in Eph 4:4 is being used figuratively and not a literal immersion. More bad exegesis and theological bias.

You never resolved the contradiction you made when Paul WATER baptized some Corinthians in 1 Cor 1:14,16 and you trying to make 1 Cor 12:13 some kind of figurative "spirit baptism". You are creating TWO baptism when there is just ONE baptism in effect, Eph 4:4. More bad exegesis and flawed theological bias.

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1 Cor 1:12 "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."
1 Cor 1:13 "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

These two verses you quoted actually PROVE the necessity of water baptism that Paul baptize some of the Corinthians with, verses 14 and 16. In the context, Paul uses the necessity of water baptism to heal the division that was occurring at the church in Corinth.

Verse 12 instead of all those at the church at Corinth saying they were of Christ, some said they were of the one that baptized, some said they were of Paul or of Cephas or of Apollos.

Verse 13 Paul asks a negative rhetorical question. Stated in the positive Paul is saying "Christ is NOT divided! Christ was circified for you, you were baptized in the name of Christ!"

Paul's point in verse 13 was to show those Corinthians that if they are "OF" someone, then that someone must have (1) been crucified for you and (2) you must be baptized in that someone's name. This is why they could not be "of Paul" or "of Cephas or "of Apollos" because none of these men were crucified for the Corinthians nor were any of the Corinthians baptized in the name of any of these men. These two things are only true of Christ.

(1) was Christ crucified for those Corinthians? Yes, 1 Cor 15:1-4. Yet Christ was crucified for every man, Heb 2:9 yet every man will not be saved. Why?

(2) Because every man has not been water baptized in the name of the Lord.

Therefore for if you (or anyone else) claim to be "of Christ" then BOTH, not just one but BOTH must be true:
1) Christ must have been crucified for you.
2) you must be water baptized in the name of Christ.

This baptism in the name of Christ is the human administered water baptism of Christ's great commission, Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16 the exact same ONE WATER baptism of 1 Cor 1:14,16 and 1 Cor 12;13.

It can only take bad exegesis and a theological bias to find away around this proof Paul presented the Corinthians that they were "of Christ" because of these two truths.

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Compare 1 Cor 12:13 that says "For by one Spirit are we all baptized..." to 1 Cor 1:14 and 16 where Paul said "I baptized"

So did the spirit baptize or did Paul baptize? Paul literally water baptized them and the spirit baptized them in the sense of giving Paul the authority to water baptism. So the spirit baptized in the same way as Christ, Jn 4:1,2 Who did not water baptize anyone personally but water baptized by giving His authority to disciples to water baptize in His name.

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You posted above "Who did the water baptizing? PAUL. Who baptizes us into the body of Christ? HOLY SPIRIT. These are two distinct baptisms (Matthew 3:11...."

So you admit to creating TWO baptism contrary to Eph 4:4 that says ONE baptism. And it's nothing but your theological bias creating the contradiction.

Furthermore, in Mt 3:11 the pronoun "you" occurs twice and you cannot prove that either "you" refers to mailmandan. Bad exegesis and theological bias will cause you to eliminate the first "you" from referring to mailmandan while without proof you will conveniently make the second "you" refer to mailmandan.

Acts 1:5 the context shows Jesus was talking to and making a promise to His apostles and not anyone else. As Acts 11:16 refers back to Acts 1:5.

Sorry, but you have not been giving me biblical truth but a lot of bad exegesis and your theological bias

posthuman · Sep 9, 2014

newbirth said:

who do ya think told this angel what to say?
should i quote 100 passages from scripture where angels relate the word of God to people?
the word "angel" means literally "messenger" -- so an angel of God bears a message from.... (guess who!)

it's not as though the message is changed. the prophets declare Him to be the Christ. the angels declare Him to be the Christ. the star the wise men from the East followed declared Him to be the Christ. His works declare Him to be the Christ.John the baptist declares Him to be the Christ before he baptized Him. a voice from heaven declares Him to be the Christ. He declares Himself to be the Christ. His apostles declare Him to be the Christ. the Spirit in me declares that He is Christ.

what exactly is your theological problem with the idea that Christ is the Son of God, has always been, and always will be, declared from the beginning?
does something change in your understanding if He is already the Son of God before John baptizes Him?

He didn't "become" Christ by being baptized in water.
i don't "become" a believer when i am baptized in water.

posthuman · Sep 9, 2014

posthuman said:

newbirth said:

in other words, possibly John was never baptized, because it is not recorded in the scriptures, and if he was, it certainly didn't cause him to be filled with the Spirit, because the scripture clearly says He was full of the spirit from before his birth (Luke 1:15)
-- but that destroys the idea that water baptism alone can cause someone to receive the Spirit, so let's push that under the carpet and never, never-ever talk about it. in fact let's make doubly sure that point never comes up and say it's foolish and unlearned to mention it.

posthuman · Sep 9, 2014

boy howdy, if the water in a baptismal font literally washes away sin,
what fools we are to simply let it drain into the sewer!! this stuff is going right back into the water supply!
no wonder the world is still full of sin!

does boiling the water afterwards purge the sin from it?

i feel like some people read John 3 and think "flesh begets flesh, water begets spirit"

SeaBass · Sep 9, 2014

The blood of Christ washes away sins, Rev 1:5, but the blood of Christ washes away sins only when one is water baptized, not any time before.

John 5:3 and Baptismal Regeneration Refuted

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