John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism

[Danny1988]

What you won’t here and I highly doubt that it has been mentioned and I could be wrong. When they say place “your” faith into Christ atoning work or just put “your” trust into Christ atoning work, one has to ask the question how. How can they put “their” faith and their “trust” into Christ knowing fully well that they are spiritually dead and yet this is what they teach.

When they say place or put your faith into Christs atoning work, it was directed at the elect of God. Because the reprobate will never place their faith in Christ.

 

[Danny1988]

Regeneration does refer to being "quickened to life".

It does not matter what you say, but what does the Bible say.

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

People hear the gospel, and once they decide to believe it, then they are regenerated, quickened to life by the gift of the holy spirit.


Yes, that's the Calvinist belief. It's not true.


Have you checked yet? The word for "whole" is there in the Greek.

καὶ αὐτὸς ἱλασμός ἐστιν περὶ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν, οὐ περὶ τῶν ἡμετέρων δὲ μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου. (1Jo 2:2 BGT)

The word is "holos" and it means "all, whole, completely."


Yes. This has been an ongoing debate for centuries.


I do not agree with your choice, and I do not think it is the most biblically accurate. If Calvinism is true, then:

1) "love" is meaningless.
2) God is a respecter of persons
3) It makes God unlovable and untrustworthy.
4) It makes God the author of sin and evil
5) It forces God to have two different wills.
6) It makes it impossible to read the Bible at face value.
7) If Calvinism is true, then evil does not really exist.
8) Calvinism makes being an ambassador for Jesus Christ meaningless.

And more...

I believe you have a false view of Calvinism, you may have skimmed over it without really studying it in detail.

I also thought it sounded unbiblical when I first came across it, but as I look deeper into it and thoroughly studied it I concluded that it was the most Biblically accurate description of how a person is saved.

I don't expect you to agree and I know most people reject it, but I take comfort in the Bible fact that God's Word is written in such a way that it will only make sense to His elect and it will confuse everyone else. This is why we have so many Christian denominations, people read the Bible like a literally scientific work, it is a spiritual message and it can only be discerned spiritually by humble people who have thew Holy Spirit guiding them.

You will find that all the highly educated scientists and religious people get the Bible wrong because they approach it from a wrong perspective. God is pleased to reveal it's meaning to the meek and humble and hide it from the proud.

 

[shrume]

God is pleased to reveal it's meaning to the meek and humble and hide it from the proud.

True. And anyone can choose to humble themselves and seek God.

 

[MattforJesus]

Calvinist's GOD, a short story

"Once upon a time there was a birthday party for seven year olds at the house. Forty little kids were having a great time. It was good. The moment came to light the candles on the cake. Dad realized that the ice cream was still in the refrigerator out back (he put it there earlier). He placed the matchbox on the table and said, “Don't light the candles, you'll kill yourselves.” They were special candles that don't blow out. What a treat for seven year olds!

While Dad was delayed getting their ice cream, one of the kids suggested they light the candles and practice blowing them out to get the proper camera angle. So, as the partygoers gathered to blow out the candles one fell on the pile of presents and burst into an inferno. The Dad, realizing what had happened, rushed into the house and carefully and arbitrarily rescued four kids to show the world what a real hero he was. He could have saved the rest but he did not. He let them burn along with the entire house and presents. He wanted to show them his displeasure at their disobedience (which he planned). He locked them in so they could not save themselves.

The four kids and the Dad ate the ice cream in joyous celebration and happiness while the others were weeping, pleading and gnashing their teeth. Occasionally, the four yelled to the others to come out. However, they couldn't get out on their own, only the Dad could rescue them if he had wanted to. In reality the Dad hated those he did not choose and planned for them to burn in the fire before the party began. He even knew the one boy who would light the fire. Moreover, he did not simply foreknow it, he actually ordained it to happen according to his good pleasure. "

That is strange that you got 3 disagrees, but if God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice, then what you wrote is the scenario that fits it, for these people God did not choose were planned to be doomed before the party started, and are blamed for rejecting the truth when they have no choice but to reject the truth, for God did not choose them.

Why would you get a disagree when that would be the analogy of it.

If God chooses them to be not saved, and they have no choice about it, then why are they going to be punished.

Would somebody program their computer, or a robot, to say you suck, and you are an idiot, to the person that did the programming, and then would the person get mad and then smash the computer, or robot, for saying that when the computer, robot, did not have a choice but to say that seeing no other alternative.

If God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without our choice, then we are all robots, and the ones who accept the truth truly do not love God for they have no choice, and the ones who reject the truth should not be punished because they have no choice.

And under that condition if God did choose without our choice when all are sinners, then it would put in to question God's character that He is love, and not evil.

 

[Danny1988]

we are dead because of sin

we are quickened to life because the sin debt has been removed.

ie, we are made alive because we are justified (sins forgiven) we can not be made alive while we are still dead because of sin.

I am sorry, But in this point, the calvinist view is not biblically accurate.

We were born dead because we inherited sin, we didn't die because we sinned. We were born that way.

You were not made alive because you decided to believe and bring yourself to life, "for none seek after God". God had to wake you up from the dead so you could receive the gift of regeneration, belief, faith and obedience. This is Biblically true

 

[Danny1988]

True. And anyone can choose to humble themselves and seek God.

We don't believe that a reprobate has the ability to choose to humble himself because he is a salve to his sin and he is dead in it. So he has no ability to seek God, nor does he want to because he only loves his sin and he hates God.

 

[shrume]

We were born dead because we inherited sin, we didn't die because we sinned. We were born that way.

It is true that we are born dead in sin. But Calvinists overstate our fallen nature.

Gen 3:
22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Even though we are born dead in sin, we still know the difference between good and evil. We can choose to seek God.

You were not made alive because you decided to believe and bring yourself to life, "for none seek after God". God had to wake you up from the dead so you could receive the gift of regeneration, belief, faith and obedience. This is Biblically true

No it isn't.

We are no longer spiritually dead when we receive the gift of the holy spirit, and we receive the gift of the holy spirit AFTER we hear the gospel and choose to believe it.

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[shrume]

We don't believe that a reprobate has the ability to choose to humble himself because he is a salve to his sin and he is dead in it. So he has no ability to seek God, nor does he want to because he only loves his sin and he hates God.

Yes, I know what Calvinists believe. Again, Calvinists completely overstate our fallen nature in order to support their belief.

God's word is very clear:

1 Tim 2:
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Eze 33:
11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[Danny1988]

It is true that we are born dead in sin. But Calvinists overstate our fallen nature.

Gen 3:
22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Even though we are born dead in sin, we still know the difference between good and evil. We can choose to seek God.


No it isn't.

We are no longer spiritually dead when we receive the gift of the holy spirit, and we receive the gift of the holy spirit AFTER we hear the gospel and choose to believe it.

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Everything you said is Biblically sound, except we disagree over what moment a person is saved. You say it's after the believe, we say it's before they believe. It comes an undeserved gift and the person automatically responds by believing the Gospel.

So we just disagree on a technicality, but you still believe the Gospel message but we disagree on how a person attains salvation as in what process takes place and what the sequence of steps is.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Why would you get a disagree when that would be the analogy of it

To the Calvinist, Calvin trumps the Bible anytime and every time. Thus the *disagrees* that are cropping up. It is very similar to brainwashing by cults. Once the mind has been altered there is total resistance to anything different.

 

[shrume]

Everything you said is Biblically sound, except we disagree over what moment a person is saved. You say it's after the believe, we say it's before they believe. It comes an undeserved gift and the person automatically responds by believing the Gospel.

So we just disagree on a technicality, but you still believe the Gospel message but we disagree on how a person attains salvation as in what process takes place and what the sequence of steps is.

A technicality? What does the Bible say:

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Read that verse and please tell me how you can think it says we are saved (receive the gift of the holy spirit) before we believe.

 

[PennEd]

People become regenerated AFTER they believe, not before:

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

People hear the gospel, choose to believe it, THEN they are sealed with the holy spirit (regeneration).


While it's true that nobody deserves salvation, God gives it to "whosoever" decides to believe the gospel.


1 John 2:
2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

God wants the whole world (all men) to be saved (1 Tim 2:4).


The elect are people who choose to believe the gospel, something God wants all men to do, and anyone can freely choose to do so.

So the question I haven't seen answered satisfactorily is where does the faith come from to decide to believe the Gospel?

Do YOU muster it up with YOUR strength? Or does God GIVE you the faith necessary to believe?

Also, can you explain how this passage can mean anything other than what it says? That we are born again by the Will of God, and NOT our will?
1 John:11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Danny1988]

A technicality? What does the Bible say:

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Read that verse and please tell me how you can think it says we are saved (receive the gift of the holy spirit) before we believe.

We simply believe that the very ability to believe is a gift that God gives a person before they can do anything else to do with their salvation. Our belief is that salvation is of the Lord, lest any man boast.

 

[Deuteronomy]

The Apostle Paul gives us an apt description of a non-believer, what he refers to as a "natural" man or woman, in 1 Corinthians. He writes:

........1 Corinthians 2
........14 A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot
........understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

If these words are true, why would such a person (a "natural" man or woman) ever choose to come to saving faith Christ? For that matter, how could they do so?

~Deut

............Ezekiel 36
............26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a ............heart of flesh.
............27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

 

[Danny1988]

So the question I haven't seen answered satisfactorily is where does the faith come from to decide to believe the Gospel?

Do YOU muster it up with YOUR strength? Or does God GIVE you the faith necessary to believe?

Also, can you explain how this passage can mean anything other than what it says? That we are born again by the Will of God, and NOT our will?
1 John:11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I'm surprised by the very small number of Christians who reject the scriptures which teach that God is the author and finisher of our faith.
Most Christians believe that they can chose salvation by using their own intellect and wisdom. They don't believe that faith, belief, repentance, obedience and everything necessary for salvation is a gift from God and no person has the power to choose.

The Arminius crowd ignore so many scriptures which support predestination and election, they only focus on those scriptures which seem to support the free choice idea. This has divided the Church into two camps for centuries and the debate continues to this day.

 

[Danny1988]

The Apostle Paul gives us an apt description of a non-believer, what he refers to as a "natural" man or woman, in 1 Corinthians. He writes:

........1 Corinthians 2
........14 A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot
........understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

If these words are true, why would such a person (a "natural" man or woman) ever choose to come to saving faith Christ? For that matter, how could they do so?

~Deut

............Ezekiel 36
............26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a ............heart of flesh.
............27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Am I correct in assuming that you believe salvation is a gift of God, and it's not in the hands of any person.

 

[trofimus]

4. ALL MAY EITHER BELIEVE, OR DISBELIEVE

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But the verse does not say that all may either believe or disbelieve according to their wish like switching a light on or off.

The verse just states what is the fate of each group.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That is strange that you got 3 disagrees, but if God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice, then what you wrote is the scenario that fits it, for these people God did not choose were planned to be doomed before the party started, and are blamed for rejecting the truth when they have no choice but to reject the truth, for God did not choose them.

I didn't write it. There's a link in the title to who did.

 

[Zmouth]

Am I correct in assuming that you believe salvation is a gift of God, and it's not in the hands of any person.

"It is written for he that cometh to God must believe he is, and he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6

So what is reward of the invisible God to those who diligently seek him? I would think that it would be the Spirit of truth that says unto them, "How are you going to find Him if you can't hear me?"

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:16-18

 

[Danny1988]

"It is written for he that cometh to God must believe he is, and he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6

So what is reward of the invisible God to those who diligently seek him? I would think that it would be the Spirit of truth that says unto them, "How are you going to find Him if you can't hear me?"

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:16-18

17. Says "but ye know him, for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you", this sounds like He's addressing the elect of God.