John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism

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TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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It's perfectly fine to admit you don't know what you actually believe ab out the subject. You are in good company, 90% of people here don't know either
While it's perfectly fine to admit that, I do know what I believe about the subject... and neither "Calvinism" nor "Arminianism" is it. ;)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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It's time-consuming to present it (typing it all out and so forth), and I don't have a lot of free time.
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
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While it's perfectly fine to admit that, I do know what I believe about the subject... and neither "Calvinism" nor "Arminianism" is it. ;)
Please allow me to help you save time studying Calvin and Arminius. It all boils down to the question of does God choose to save His elect as the scriptures say He does. or are those 40 odd scriptures a mistake and they forgot to remove them from the canon of scripture.

Arminius says man saves himself by choosing to believe the Gospel, Calvin says God draws His predestined elect to Himself. The elect believe the Gospel when they hear it, so they respond by obeying the Gospel. The non elect will never believe, no matter how much scripture and evidence you show them. Every last one of them will go to the grave as unbelievers.

So do you believe fallen wicked man chooses to believe and save himself, or does God draw us to Himself.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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That's exactly what Calvin taught, so at least you agree with him on that account.
Actually, Slayer, I agree with God. That calvin agreed God on that point, I'm glad he didn't reject that truth and, hopefully, you also will do as the Bereans and continue to search the Scriptures daily to determine whether what you hear is what God says.
 

Slayer

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Jul 23, 2018
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Actually, Slayer, I agree with God. That calvin agreed God on that point, I'm glad he didn't reject that truth and, hopefully, you also will do as the Bereans and continue to search the Scriptures daily to determine whether what you hear is what God says.
I do study the scriptures every day as the Bereans did, I also have the added advantage of learning form our full time Pastor who spends all of his time studying the Bible. I have the added blessing of picking up the phone and asking him anything at any time, so that's a great advantage. It saves me a lot of time because I can take advantage of his wealth of knowledge.

Our Pastor agrees with Calvin and he tells us that Calvin is Biblically correct, so we can learn a lot from what he taught.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Our Pastor agrees with Calvin and he tells us that Calvin is Biblically correct, so we can learn a lot from what he taught.
Your Pastor should be agreeing with God. Where calvinism is not in alignment with God's Truth, let God's Word be upheld so there is no mistake but that God's Word is being followed.
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
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Your Pastor should be agreeing with God. Where calvinism is not in alignment with God's Truth, let God's Word be upheld so there is no mistake but that God's Word is being followed.
Your absolutely right, only one slight problem. Nobody knows what Gods Word is, we have 40,000 different interpretations. How do I know which of them is the right one.

There are much smarter and far more educated theologians than you and I, trying to break the encrypted code of scripture. The debate has been raging for 2000 years, with all due respect I don't believe you have found the solution. You would be world famous and very rich if you did.

So it will always remain a case of each to his own, and nobody can convince anyone else that their interpretation is the correct one. The Pope of Rome has cashed in on this mud fight, by calling everyone to join him in a spiritual orgy where everyone's religion is equally respected.

He has the support of 95% of Christian denominations and of all the other religions, he realized that nobody will ever agree with each other so he cashed in and created ecumenicalism . He is still counting the money while we argue about doctrine.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Nobody knows what Gods Word is
That is what satan wants us to believe so that Scripture remains a closed book to us.

God is faithful and He can, will, and does work in our hearts to reveal His Word to us. We are to continue to read, study, meditate on His Word every day. We are to take what we hear when someone presents God's word to us, go to Scripture, and make sure that what we are hearing is what God's Word says and means.

Don't let the lie of the adversary keep you from doing as God instructs in His Word. Stay strong, remain on guard against the wiles of the devil, know that God is at work within you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. We live in a dark and perverse nation and we are to shine as light in this world. Don't let your light grow dim. Keep it bright by remaining plugged in to its source. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path (Psalm 119:105). There are people in this world who need to see the light in you so keep holding it out so others may partake of this wondrous life we have been called to by God, so God can light the way for them through this life.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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Anaheim, Cali.
IS CALVINISM A CULT?
(Adapted from an article on Angelfire.com. http://www.angelfire.com/realm/raised-to-life/Articles/Cult.html)

Calvinism is a cult for many reasons. Cult-like behavior is always marked by an idolatrous attachment to the cult itself. You will not find every Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist to be mired down in the cult-like behavior of Calvinism. Many people attend Calvinistic churches for reasons other than Calvinism and such members place little emphasis on Calvinism itself. It is those people who have committed themselves to five-point TULIP Calvinism who are mired in this cult.
Calvinists like to claim that all other theological systems are false. Calvinists have beliefs similar to the early Gnostics, who believed “the elect” were those ‘chosen-ones’ who had the secret knowledge of God. They believe that anyone who does not accept Calvinism must be a ‘non-elect’ and ‘non-regenerate’ person. If you observe a Calvinist carefully, you will see that he has little regard for the true meaning of the Bible message. The only message he will allow or accept is the message of Calvinism. All Biblical passages are run through the Calvinist mill. Any passage which seems to run contrary to his doctrine is ‘reworked’ to fit into his system. Like all cults, the Calvinist will not change his beliefs under any circumstances. Rather than conforming his beliefs to the Bible, the Calvinist tries to conform the Bible to his beliefs. Instead of trying to understand what the Bible really says, he first asks himself how any given passage might impact Calvinism. Then, instead of honestly trying to understand the intended message of any given passage, he develops an interpretation that will suit Calvinism. Thus all interpretations are ‘custom-fit’to suit Calvinism.The Calvinist serves his belief system and to him the Bible must be interpreted to conform to his belief system. All interpretations of the Bible are subject to doctrines of Calvinism. For example, in the gospel of John, Calvinists interpret the word “world” in John 1:29 and John 3:16 to mean “the elect” or ‘chosen-ones’ (they use the word ‘predestinated’). But at John 17:9, they interpret the word “world” to mean “other than the elect.” Therefore, they give the same word ‘world’ (Greek kosmos), totally opposite meanings from one passage to the next. There are myriads of examples in Calvinism just like this one.
Ordinary Christians do not have such a rigid 5-point system. If a Bible passage comes up that impacts their present beliefs, such Christians will change their beliefs to conform to the Bible. Not so with a Calvinist. The Calvinist (like the Mormon and Jehovah’s Witness) serves his rigid belief system and no Biblical passage is going to change his mind.
The purpose of reading the Bible is to find out what it says and arrive at the intended meaning through understanding the context, the grammar and following accepted objective principles of interpretation. Most people read the Bible to discover the treasures therein, but not the Calvinist. He uses the Bible only to make it suit or ‘custom-fit’ his rigid 5-point brand of Calvinism.
Calvinists do not try to coherently piece the ideas in the Bible together to arrive at the big picture. Rather, they pick up passages that suit them best and either ignore or rework all other passages which
do not endorse Calvinism. They gather together a bunch of passages and build for themselves a rigid cult-like doctrinal belief system (called TULIP) which is to their liking. In short, they create their own god, an idol called Calvinism.
Many people would say this language is too strong to describe Calvinism. At one time I would have said so myself. But having studied and observed Calvinists for thousands upon thousands of hours, it is my solemn conclusion that Calvinism is a very dangerous cult and falls into the same bracket of cults like Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormonism. Do not let meaning through understanding the context, the grammar and following accepted objective principles of interpretation. Most people read the Bible to discover the treasures therein, but not the Calvinist. He uses the Bible only to make it suit or ‘custom-fit’ his rigid 5-point brand of Calvinism.Do not let the fact that they accept regular doctrines like the Trinity and the Deity of Christ fool you either. Observe their behavior in church circles, in theological debates and especially on social networking sites and you will see how correct are my observations that Calvinism is indeed a blinding and life-choking CULT.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Attaching the name Calvin to a doctrine you do not agree with does not change the prnciples.

Calvin didn't speak English, and the Latin word for "tulip" is spelt "tulipa" and the Dutch spelling is "tulpe", That demonstrates that the T.U.L.I.P. is a recent English invention.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
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Anaheim, Cali.
What is the difference between the words “Cult” and “Occult”?


Posted by Christian Research Institute | Mar 17, 2009 | Occult, Perspectives





CULT AND OCCULT- Introduction
The words “cult” and “occult” are popular terms that should not be confused with one another. So, what is the difference between them?

The term “cult” is typically used by the secular media to describe religious or semi-religious groups whose members are controlled in almost every single respect by a single individual. Some good examples are Hare Krishnas or Scientologists.


CULT AND OCCULT- Theological Sense of the Word
To orthodox Christians, however, the word “cult” takes on a wider meaning. Not only can groups be considered cultic in the sociological sense, groups may be deemed cultic in a theological sense as well. What I mean is that groups which claim to be in harmony with Christianity but deny foundational Christian doctrines — such as the Trinity, or the unique deity of Jesus Christ — are cults in a theological sense. Thus, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and Christian Scientists qualify as cultists.

CULT AND OCCULT- Occult
Now, while the word “cult” is always used with reference to a particular group, the word “occult” is typically associated with esoteric and mystical practices. It deals with hidden or secretive means to attain personal power, and is characterized by a reliance on the supernatural to achieve its ends. The occult includes such practices as fortunetelling, witchcraft, or trance-channelling — the sort of thing described in Deuteronomy 18. Additionally, tarot cards, crystal balls, ouija boards, and horoscopes number among the many tools which are used by occultists. Clearly, the occult deals directly with demonic forces.
(post courtesy of the Christian Research Institute, San Juan Capistrano, Calif. USA)
 
Mar 28, 2016
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1,523
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For example, in the gospel of John, Calvinists interpret the word “world” in John 1:29 and John 3:16 to mean “the elect” or ‘chosen-ones’ (they use the word ‘predestinated’). But at John 17:9, they interpret the word “world” to mean “other than the elect.” Therefore, they give the same word ‘world’ (Greek kosmos), totally opposite meanings from one passage to the next. There are myriads of examples in Calvinism just like this one.

Calvin is dead. Not sure whose examples you are offering?

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. John1:29

The gift of salvation takes away the sin of the world. Not just the Jewish world or Christian world but even those of pagan religions

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John3:16

God's labor of Love or work of faith takes away the sin of the world not the gentiles alone but also the Jew. As many as the father gave to the Son will come. Not one more or less.

1 John 5:19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Not just a part of the world . Those who perish without the written law to be included.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
IS CALVINISM A CULT?
(Adapted from an article on Angelfire.com. http://www.angelfire.com/realm/raised-to-life/Articles/Cult.html)

Calvinism is a cult for many reasons. Cult-like behavior is always marked by an idolatrous attachment to the cult itself. You will not find every Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist to be mired down in the cult-like behavior of Calvinism. Many people attend Calvinistic churches for reasons other than Calvinism and such members place little emphasis on Calvinism itself. It is those people who have committed themselves to five-point TULIP Calvinism who are mired in this cult.
Calvinists like to claim that all other theological systems are false. Calvinists have beliefs similar to the early Gnostics, who believed “the elect” were those ‘chosen-ones’ who had the secret knowledge of God. They believe that anyone who does not accept Calvinism must be a ‘non-elect’ and ‘non-regenerate’ person. If you observe a Calvinist carefully, you will see that he has little regard for the true meaning of the Bible message. The only message he will allow or accept is the message of Calvinism. All Biblical passages are run through the Calvinist mill. Any passage which seems to run contrary to his doctrine is ‘reworked’ to fit into his system. Like all cults, the Calvinist will not change his beliefs under any circumstances. Rather than conforming his beliefs to the Bible, the Calvinist tries to conform the Bible to his beliefs. Instead of trying to understand what the Bible really says, he first asks himself how any given passage might impact Calvinism. Then, instead of honestly trying to understand the intended message of any given passage, he develops an interpretation that will suit Calvinism. Thus all interpretations are ‘custom-fit’to suit Calvinism.The Calvinist serves his belief system and to him the Bible must be interpreted to conform to his belief system. All interpretations of the Bible are subject to doctrines of Calvinism. For example, in the gospel of John, Calvinists interpret the word “world” in John 1:29 and John 3:16 to mean “the elect” or ‘chosen-ones’ (they use the word ‘predestinated’). But at John 17:9, they interpret the word “world” to mean “other than the elect.” Therefore, they give the same word ‘world’ (Greek kosmos), totally opposite meanings from one passage to the next. There are myriads of examples in Calvinism just like this one.
Ordinary Christians do not have such a rigid 5-point system. If a Bible passage comes up that impacts their present beliefs, such Christians will change their beliefs to conform to the Bible. Not so with a Calvinist. The Calvinist (like the Mormon and Jehovah’s Witness) serves his rigid belief system and no Biblical passage is going to change his mind.
The purpose of reading the Bible is to find out what it says and arrive at the intended meaning through understanding the context, the grammar and following accepted objective principles of interpretation. Most people read the Bible to discover the treasures therein, but not the Calvinist. He uses the Bible only to make it suit or ‘custom-fit’ his rigid 5-point brand of Calvinism.
Calvinists do not try to coherently piece the ideas in the Bible together to arrive at the big picture. Rather, they pick up passages that suit them best and either ignore or rework all other passages which
do not endorse Calvinism. They gather together a bunch of passages and build for themselves a rigid cult-like doctrinal belief system (called TULIP) which is to their liking. In short, they create their own god, an idol called Calvinism.
Many people would say this language is too strong to describe Calvinism. At one time I would have said so myself. But having studied and observed Calvinists for thousands upon thousands of hours, it is my solemn conclusion that Calvinism is a very dangerous cult and falls into the same bracket of cults like Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormonism. Do not let meaning through understanding the context, the grammar and following accepted objective principles of interpretation. Most people read the Bible to discover the treasures therein, but not the Calvinist. He uses the Bible only to make it suit or ‘custom-fit’ his rigid 5-point brand of Calvinism.Do not let the fact that they accept regular doctrines like the Trinity and the Deity of Christ fool you either. Observe their behavior in church circles, in theological debates and especially on social networking sites and you will see how correct are my observations that Calvinism is indeed a blinding and life-choking CULT.

Many of the doctrines are a tragedy for sure, and when I read Calvin I am not even sure he was understood properly, Calvin's writing on salvific faith is far different than what were read on CC where many argue that salvific faith is also a gift from God.

Sadly, if you read through many of the posts on CC you will see Calvinism however repackaged as lordship salvation.

Having said this, I cannot bring myself to see it as a cult and there are a few like R. C. Sproul who has an excellent understanding of eschatology sadly lacking in the post modern church.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,523
113
What is the difference between the words “Cult” and “Occult”?


Posted by Christian Research Institute | Mar 17, 2009 | Occult, Perspectives





CULT AND OCCULT- Introduction
The words “cult” and “occult” are popular terms that should not be confused with one another. So, what is the difference between them?

The term “cult” is typically used by the secular media to describe religious or semi-religious groups whose members are controlled in almost every single respect by a single individual. Some good examples are Hare Krishnas or Scientologists.


CULT AND OCCULT- Theological Sense of the Word
To orthodox Christians, however, the word “cult” takes on a wider meaning. Not only can groups be considered cultic in the sociological sense, groups may be deemed cultic in a theological sense as well. What I mean is that groups which claim to be in harmony with Christianity but deny foundational Christian doctrines — such as the Trinity, or the unique deity of Jesus Christ — are cults in a theological sense. Thus, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and Christian Scientists qualify as cultists.

CULT AND OCCULT- Occult
Now, while the word “cult” is always used with reference to a particular group, the word “occult” is typically associated with esoteric and mystical practices. It deals with hidden or secretive means to attain personal power, and is characterized by a reliance on the supernatural to achieve its ends. The occult includes such practices as fortunetelling, witchcraft, or trance-channelling — the sort of thing described in Deuteronomy 18. Additionally, tarot cards, crystal balls, ouija boards, and horoscopes number among the many tools which are used by occultists. Clearly, the occult deals directly with demonic forces.
(post courtesy of the Christian Research Institute, San Juan Capistrano, Calif. USA)
It would seem like another word whose meaning was turned upside down . Like venerate, venerable to deceive the pew sitters to look for a Queen .

The term "cult" first appeared in English in 1617, derived from the French culte, meaning "worship" which in turn originated from the Latin word cultus meaning "care, cultivation, worship". The meaning "devotion to a person or thing" is from 1829.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
399
83
IS CALVINISM A CULT?
(Adapted from an article on Angelfire.com. http://www.angelfire.com/realm/raised-to-life/Articles/Cult.html)

Calvinism is a cult for many reasons. Cult-like behavior is always marked by an idolatrous attachment to the cult itself. You will not find every Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist to be mired down in the cult-like behavior of Calvinism. Many people attend Calvinistic churches for reasons other than Calvinism and such members place little emphasis on Calvinism itself. It is those people who have committed themselves to five-point TULIP Calvinism who are mired in this cult.
Calvinists like to claim that all other theological systems are false. Calvinists have beliefs similar to the early Gnostics, who believed “the elect” were those ‘chosen-ones’ who had the secret knowledge of God. They believe that anyone who does not accept Calvinism must be a ‘non-elect’ and ‘non-regenerate’ person. If you observe a Calvinist carefully, you will see that he has little regard for the true meaning of the Bible message. The only message he will allow or accept is the message of Calvinism. All Biblical passages are run through the Calvinist mill. Any passage which seems to run contrary to his doctrine is ‘reworked’ to fit into his system. Like all cults, the Calvinist will not change his beliefs under any circumstances. Rather than conforming his beliefs to the Bible, the Calvinist tries to conform the Bible to his beliefs. Instead of trying to understand what the Bible really says, he first asks himself how any given passage might impact Calvinism. Then, instead of honestly trying to understand the intended message of any given passage, he develops an interpretation that will suit Calvinism. Thus all interpretations are ‘custom-fit’to suit Calvinism.The Calvinist serves his belief system and to him the Bible must be interpreted to conform to his belief system. All interpretations of the Bible are subject to doctrines of Calvinism. For example, in the gospel of John, Calvinists interpret the word “world” in John 1:29 and John 3:16 to mean “the elect” or ‘chosen-ones’ (they use the word ‘predestinated’). But at John 17:9, they interpret the word “world” to mean “other than the elect.” Therefore, they give the same word ‘world’ (Greek kosmos), totally opposite meanings from one passage to the next. There are myriads of examples in Calvinism just like this one.
Ordinary Christians do not have such a rigid 5-point system. If a Bible passage comes up that impacts their present beliefs, such Christians will change their beliefs to conform to the Bible. Not so with a Calvinist. The Calvinist (like the Mormon and Jehovah’s Witness) serves his rigid belief system and no Biblical passage is going to change his mind.
The purpose of reading the Bible is to find out what it says and arrive at the intended meaning through understanding the context, the grammar and following accepted objective principles of interpretation. Most people read the Bible to discover the treasures therein, but not the Calvinist. He uses the Bible only to make it suit or ‘custom-fit’ his rigid 5-point brand of Calvinism.
Calvinists do not try to coherently piece the ideas in the Bible together to arrive at the big picture. Rather, they pick up passages that suit them best and either ignore or rework all other passages which
do not endorse Calvinism. They gather together a bunch of passages and build for themselves a rigid cult-like doctrinal belief system (called TULIP) which is to their liking. In short, they create their own god, an idol called Calvinism.
Many people would say this language is too strong to describe Calvinism. At one time I would have said so myself. But having studied and observed Calvinists for thousands upon thousands of hours, it is my solemn conclusion that Calvinism is a very dangerous cult and falls into the same bracket of cults like Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormonism. Do not let meaning through understanding the context, the grammar and following accepted objective principles of interpretation. Most people read the Bible to discover the treasures therein, but not the Calvinist. He uses the Bible only to make it suit or ‘custom-fit’ his rigid 5-point brand of Calvinism.Do not let the fact that they accept regular doctrines like the Trinity and the Deity of Christ fool you either. Observe their behavior in church circles, in theological debates and especially on social networking sites and you will see how correct are my observations that Calvinism is indeed a blinding and life-choking CULT.
I suggest you readjust your concepts to reality! It is obvious you are delusional!! Here is a dose of it!! Both Calvinism and Arminianism are Biblical. For Calvinism read the Cannons of Dort.
----------
Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Keep in mind that the Apostles Creed was created in 212 by the early elders. It states what a Christian must believe. Anything outside of it is to agree to disagree. Anything opposed to it is heresy. The agree to disagree is why there are so many gospel preaching denominations.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
9,133
5,520
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Many of the doctrines are a tragedy for sure, and when I read Calvin I am not even sure he was understood properly, Calvin's writing on salvific faith is far different than what were read on CC where many argue that salvific faith is also a gift from God.

Sadly, if you read through many of the posts on CC you will see Calvinism however repackaged as lordship salvation.

Having said this, I cannot bring myself to see it as a cult and there are a few like R. C. Sproul who has an excellent understanding of eschatology sadly lacking in the post modern church.
I have never heard a satisfactory answer to if our faith isn’t a gift from God where does it come from?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
13,473
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I have never heard a satisfactory answer to if our faith isn’t a gift from God where does it come from?
All you have to so is read and study Romans 10 in depth.

It includes the well-known but poorly understood verse: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (v 17) In this context "the Word of God" is the Gospel, just as it is in 1 Peter 1:23-25. When the Gospel is preached or read, the Holy Spirit is right there with the Gospel to convince and convict sinners and draw them to the Savior. And Scripture says "Today, if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts".
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I have never heard a satisfactory answer to if our faith isn’t a gift from God where does it come from?
God does increase faith to use the gifts, ( Corinthians) hwr salvific faith is not a gift.

Faith is the passive result of being persuaded, convinced, and convicted that something is true....are you stating people do not have this ability?