Joshua’s long day

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Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
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#21
According to the gift of faith, God does not break any laws per se, for He crated the entire system for us to use. If anything
man breaks laws.

God is not bound by anything, especially the creation He created along with the manner in qhich He set it up to work for His purposes.

To imply the Maker of all that is is bound by any governing mechanisms of the Universe He crated, again, is preposterous.
You raise an interesting question.
Can God do anything?
Is He bound by the laws he has made? It is said God cannot lie. I don’t see this as a limitation, but it illustrates that the blanket statement, God is all-mighty is a simplification. Clearly God limits himself and is constrained by the choices he makes. For example, God wants to make a creature capable of love. This forces God to allow the creature free will, since if love is forced, it isn’t love at all. So, even God cannot do anything. It wouldn’t make sense if God said 2 + 2 = 5. This would create an alternate reality. Since God has already created this reality in which 2 + 2 = 4, why would God subvert his own purposes?
As I said in my original post, the miracles of God are not arbitrary. They could be, but God is trying to teach us. The miracles are illustrative. In the case of the stairs of Ahaz, God seems to break the laws of physics. It is possible to slow time, maybe even stop it, but we cannot reverse time.
So, is God doing miracles that show he is capable of doing anything possible, or is he a God that does the impossible? The stairs of Ahaz seem to be the only example in the bible where God does the impossible - as far as I know!
 

Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
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#22
i'm not unacquainted with relativity. are you suggesting that Joshua et al were accelerated near light speed or that they were emplaced in a extreme gravitational field?

i'm sorry i didn't make it all the way through the OP when i first replied. often i don't have a lot of time when i am browsing here.
You are on the right track. If the earth accelerated to near light speed or got close to an extreme gravitational field this would slow time on the earth and then the events described in Joshua chapter ten would happen exactly as described. Obviously God didn’t accelerate the earth, or increase gravity, he achieved time dilation supernaturally. This is a miracle like slowing or stopping the spin of the earth, but it doesn’t introduce any side effects. My theory is that this is how God did it, slowing time, not the spin of the earth or any of the other theories. I like the idea very much. God picks the simplest method to achieve his purpose. Economy of effort! The fact that God took a day off after the six day creation, suggests that God was tired. So these miracles clearly take it out of him. So why waste effort?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
22,311
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#23
You are on the right track. If the earth accelerated to near light speed or got close to an extreme gravitational field this would slow time on the earth and then the events described in Joshua chapter ten would happen exactly as described. Obviously God didn’t accelerate the earth, or increase gravity, he achieved time dilation supernaturally. This is a miracle like slowing or stopping the spin of the earth, but it doesn’t introduce any side effects. My theory is that this is how God did it, slowing time, not the spin of the earth or any of the other theories. I like the idea very much. God picks the simplest method to achieve his purpose. Economy of effort! The fact that God took a day off after the six day creation, suggests that God was tired. So these miracles clearly take it out of him. So why waste effort?
actually if we exist in 11 dimensions as some string theorists say, i could envision a scenario in which He could have accelerated them in another direction apart from the x y z we're familiar with, so that they were time dilated but not spatially dilated with respect to the Euclidean coordinates of the ordinary macro-universe. it would be possible for the Israelites to be accelerated while the earth and their enemies were not, so that they appeared to them as tho fleeing in slow motion.

also He does miracles. i have no intellectual problem with purely miraculous events. :)
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
15,294
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#24
You raise an interesting question.
Can God do anything?
Is He bound by the laws he has made? It is said God cannot lie. I don’t see this as a limitation, but it illustrates that the blanket statement, God is all-mighty is a simplification. Clearly God limits himself and is constrained by the choices he makes. For example, God wants to make a creature capable of love. This forces God to allow the creature free will, since if love is forced, it isn’t love at all. So, even God cannot do anything. It wouldn’t make sense if God said 2 + 2 = 5. This would create an alternate reality. Since God has already created this reality in which 2 + 2 = 4, why would God subvert his own purposes?
As I said in my original post, the miracles of God are not arbitrary. They could be, but God is trying to teach us. The miracles are illustrative. In the case of the stairs of Ahaz, God seems to break the laws of physics. It is possible to slow time, maybe even stop it, but we cannot reverse time.
So, is God doing miracles that show he is capable of doing anything possible, or is he a God that does the impossible? The stairs of Ahaz seem to be the only example in the bible where God does the impossible - as far as I know!

If you would approach the Father as a scientist, be my guest, but Jesus makes it clear that we must turn and become as children, and I truly like that.

The lesson of what people, some people, refer to as miracles is that God can do anything that pleases Him, and anything that pleases Him is always good and pleases His children also.

Our Father is capable of creating any form of universe that pleases Him, but He has settled on this version. I believe He has done so because it is the best for our getting back to Him but this is just what I believe.

I have noticed all those who seek what is considered a scientific resoponse to what God does never attempt to go to the source of all that is. Of course many go back as far as a pulsating mass of energy that exploded with all parts of it moving out from a central origen at the same rate of speed, aside from elements perturbed by explosions and later collisions or solidification of gases forming bodies in space, but they never go beyond that central mass.

One manner of believing there is a Maker of all that is is to imagine nothing. I do not believe anyone, especially one with a scientific mind can possibly imagine nother. Sure, Anyi can come up with a lot of words that attempt to imagine nother, and in so doing they almost prove God is because scientifically, nothing can only produce nother…….and nother does not exist nor ever has.
 

Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
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#25
actually if we exist in 11 dimensions as some string theorists say, i could envision a scenario in which He could have accelerated them in another direction apart from the x y z we're familiar with, so that they were time dilated but not spatially dilated with respect to the Euclidean coordinates of the ordinary macro-universe. it would be possible for the Israelites to be accelerated while the earth and their enemies were not, so that they appeared to them as tho fleeing in slow motion.

also He does miracles. i have no intellectual problem with purely miraculous events. :)
It’s a big can of worms you are opening! These extra dimensions are said to be coiled up within the existing dimensions. They are spacially tiny. This means that their physics will be governed by quantum mechanics, not relativity. Since we don’t have an overarching theory to cover both, I cannot offer an opinion. What you are really trying to do is figure out how God did it. Maybe one day science will tell us?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
22,311
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#26
It’s a big can of worms you are opening! These extra dimensions are said to be coiled up within the existing dimensions. They are spacially tiny. This means that their physics will be governed by quantum mechanics, not relativity. Since we don’t have an overarching theory to cover both, I cannot offer an opinion. What you are really trying to do is figure out how God did it. Maybe one day science will tell us?
"it's bigger on the inside"... :)

the z dimension appears infinitely small if you're stuck in the xy plane.

it's the differentially small intersection between the ordinary 3d world and these other dimensions that would make it possible to be in motion along one of those extra axis and appear to be stationary in the 'regular' macro world.
((or so my hypothesis goes))
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#27
God did not slow down time as far as it would have some negative affect, for there is no such thing as time, but only a measuring tool to measure things concerning the beginning of this creation until the end of this creation.

Before God created anything there was no time, for all things go on the same with nothing scheduled.

Then when God started creation then time started as a measuring tool to the events that shall happen, and the events on earth among people.

But when this earth and heaven pass away, and there is a new earth and heaven, the New Jerusalem, then time will be no more for everything goes on the same with nothing scheduled.

There is no such thing as time that exists, but only a measuring tool to measure events concerning this creation.

And also there is no such thing as space, for God is an omnipresent Spirit that fills all space.

Also the sun coming up, and going down, and coming up again, constitutes a day, but before creation there is no sun, and after this earth and heaven pass away, there is no sun, but the Lamb is the light of the New Jerusalem as God shines out of the glorified body of the man Christ.

If God did stop the sun, or put it back a few degrees, it does not affect time, nor would it have a bad affect, like a person that cuts an inch off a metal rod does not affect a ruler, and God stopping the sun would be like us stopping a remote control car that was in motion.

Time is only a measuring tool like a ruler, and does not actually exist as a fundamental law of physics, or how the universe operates.

No time before creation, no time after creation, and I also do not believe in worm holes, black holes, and all that nonsense, for to me it is like a painting on canvas when God created everything, not no mystery doors to here or there, or whatever their mind conjures up, for what purpose.

Also for people that say flat earth, flat earth, that does not make sense.

If they say the sun is 3000 miles above earth at all times then there would have to be a dividing point between light and dark, for we know it is not always light in our area, and we know it is not always dark in our area.

But we do not observe it going from dark to light, or light to dark, that way.

If it was a flat earth it would be dark in our area, and then we would see the light coming, but it would still be dark in our area, and then the light would pass through our area, and we would see the dark going off in the distance while it is light in our area.

And if it is light in our area we would see the dark coming, but it is still light in our area, and then the dark would pass through our area, and we would see the light going off in the distance while it is dark in our area.

Because there would have to be a dividing point between the light and dark that would be great if the sun was always above the earth's surface on a flat earth.

It can be no other way.

But we do not observe it going from dark to light, and light to dark, that way.

On a round earth as the sun goes down enough, boom, it is dark in all directions we see without a great division between light and dark, and when the sun comes up enough, boom, it is light in all directions we see without a great division between light and dark.

For on a flat earth the light would chase the dark, and the dark would chase the light, that would be thick darkness, and thick light, chasing each other, for it would have a great dividing point that cannot be mistaken, because the sun can only shine for so far, and then dark, and the dark could only go so far then light.

It can be no other way.

If God stops the sun it does not affect time to have negative affects, for it is actually not a substance that exists, and the universe has no time, but time is the same as putting something on paper, for it is only a measuring tool, and not a universal principle that can impact the way the universe operates.

At least that is the way it seems to me, but as far as the flat earth I am iron clad that it cannot be flat with the sun always above the earth's surface, which the way we observe it going from light to dark, and dark to light testify of that.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
2,881
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#28
If time does not exist, one event cannot follow another and no sequence of events can take place unless there is a conscious mind to observe them. But we know that flowers grow unseen in remote places, corals grow in the seas and stalactites grow in isolated caves. And that is just on the earth. All kinds of events take place in the universe, so time must be independent of the observer.
If each mind independently constructs its own reality, how can we synchronise events? Are you suggesting that only you exist and everyone else is a figment of your imagination?
Either way, a conscious mind must experience passage of time and without a conscious mind the sequence of events by themselves mean nothing.

Two scenarios that show a connection between the mind and time:

1. An observer in a dark room can not experience time passage despite there being a sequence of events, for example, their own heart beat. Reason is that they are not able to observe and measure these events and compare their duration with the standard that is created in the mind. Same can be said of a blind man.

2. An observer in a rotating room will not experience passage of time if everything remains constant unless there is a relatively stationery object in the room from which they can count how many times they come across thereby creating a rate in the mind which will ultimately make them experience passage of time.

So time itself is nothing but passage of time is an experience. It is for this reason God has set a very visible sun and a Earth that is constantly moving against the sun so that we can experience passage of time by observation. And He said the sun and stars are for times and seasons.

IMO, time is just another measurement and all measurement relate to the conscious mind and without a conscious mind, they all mean nothing.
A liter of water in a beaker is only a liter because the mind can relate to that amount by way of comparison to other volumes, without the mind, there is no such thing a liter of water, it would just be water in a container.
 

Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
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#29
Either way, a conscious mind must experience passage of time and without a conscious mind the sequence of events by themselves mean nothing.

Two scenarios that show a connection between the mind and time:

1. An observer in a dark room can not experience time passage despite there being a sequence of events, for example, their own heart beat. Reason is that they are not able to observe and measure these events and compare their duration with the standard that is created in the mind. Same can be said of a blind man.

2. An observer in a rotating room will not experience passage of time if everything remains constant unless there is a relatively stationery object in the room from which they can count how many times they come across thereby creating a rate in the mind which will ultimately make them experience passage of time.

So time itself is nothing but passage of time is an experience. It is for this reason God has set a very visible sun and a Earth that is constantly moving against the sun so that we can experience passage of time by observation. And He said the sun and stars are for times and seasons.

IMO, time is just another measurement and all measurement relate to the conscious mind and without a conscious mind, they all mean nothing.
A liter of water in a beaker is only a liter because the mind can relate to that amount by way of comparison to other volumes, without the mind, there is no such thing a liter of water, it would just be water in a container.
The fact that a person can be unaware of the passage of time does not mean that time ceases to exist, or is simply a mental construct. A man in a lift cannot tell whether he is in free fall under gravity or being accelerated by the lift, does this mean that gravity doesn’t exist? Without a mind, gravity may not ‘mean’ anything, but it can still be experienced. It is not nothing.
You are taking a nineteenth century view of time. In the twentieth century Einstein showed that space and time are properties of the universe, part of the substance of reality. Even if man did not exist, planets would orbit suns because the mass of these suns distort the fabric of space-time.
This is the strength of science. It tells us surprising things that are true, even if they are counterintuitive.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
38,159
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#30
What you are referring to is a NASA urban myth. It is not true.
Regarding the days of creation, I would say that since a day is like 1000 years to God, we don’t need to be too literal about the details. God is getting his message across in a way that can be understood in ancient times as a literal truth and in modern times as a parable. At least that’s how I see it!
I guess I am trying to point out that people react to miracles in different ways. Some say miracles CANNOT happen and try to explain the biblical text in terms of natural phenomena, so they will say, for example, it must have been an eclipse, even though the account explicitely states that the sun and moon are in different places.
If we do concede a miracle, atheists like to show that the result of the miracle creates impossibilities, so, if the miracle was to stop the earth spinning, that would create havoc. It is a completely illogical position to take, since they have already accepted that the rotation of the earth can be suddenly stopped. It would merely take a second miracle to reverse all the side effects. All I am saying is that if God slowed down time on the earth, there are no side effects, so the atheists can’t play their little ‘straw man’ games. The solution is so neat, in fact, that I am surprised no one else has suggested it.
Since God made all the laws of physics in the first place, normal life is a miracle. It is just a miracle we are used to. God likes to perform miracles we are not used to for two reasons. The first is to demonstrate his power and teach us something in the process. The second, I believe, is because he knows miracles offend lots of people. God is in the business of sorting humanity into two categories. The evil people and the evil people who want God to help them. The first group lay down their own rules for what they will accept and not accept. God finds this attitude offensive. It lacks humility. It is narrow minded. Any claim to reason depends on the underlying assumptions. The motive for these assumptions is what interests God.
We are saying the same thing about time but from a different perspective....regardless of the guesses, supposition, ideas and views the end result was God did something supernatural.......
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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#31
As soon as one admits that there is a God, things like stopping the sun and moon are all in a day’s work. But if you take such a view you miss many lessons!
Of course if one believes that there is a God it is nothing to claim that God stopped the sun and the moon, since anyone who believes in God is admitting that they have no actual knowledge of whether or not there is a God.

As written, "...for he that comes to God must believe he is;" Since a person must believe he is, then that person who must believe he is obviously didn't have any knowledge of his existence before they believed or else they wouldn't have to believe he is.

Would that be considered a lesson?

If we do concede a miracle, atheists like to show that the result of the miracle creates impossibilities, so, if the miracle was to stop the earth spinning, that would create havoc. It is a completely illogical position to take, since they have already accepted that the rotation of the earth can be suddenly stopped. It would merely take a second miracle to reverse all the side effects
Wouldn't it also be illogical to consider the stopping of the the earth from spinning as a miracle without also considering the start of the earth spinning a miracle as well, if you define miracle as the work of a divine agency that is?.

Genesis 1:4 clarifies that God saw the light on the first day but it seems nobody know what he saw. Since many hold that the visible light of the sun wasn't created until the fourth day, then I would agree it would be a completely illogical position to take that the earth stopped instantly since it took 4 days to get it spinning so that there would be 12 hours in the day.

There is much to ponder when it comes to this event and the sun going back 10 degrees on the dial as proof to Hezekiah that he would live..
The sun doesn't go back nor forward, up or down but Satan does. (.Job 1:7)

You tell me how many degrees there are in a hour on a sun dial and I will tell you how many minutes there are in a degree on a compass.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
38,159
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#32
Of course if one believes that there is a God it is nothing to claim that God stopped the sun and the moon, since anyone who believes in God is admitting that they have no actual knowledge of whether or not there is a God.

As written, "...for he that comes to God must believe he is;" Since a person must believe he is, then that person who must believe he is obviously didn't have any knowledge of his existence before they believed or else they wouldn't have to believe he is.

Would that be considered a lesson?



Wouldn't it also be illogical to consider the stopping of the the earth from spinning as a miracle without also considering the start of the earth spinning a miracle as well, if you define miracle as the work of a divine agency that is?.

Genesis 1:4 clarifies that God saw the light on the first day but it seems nobody know what he saw. Since many hold that the visible light of the sun wasn't created until the fourth day, then I would agree it would be a completely illogical position to take that the earth stopped instantly since it took 4 days to get it spinning so that there would be 12 hours in the day.



The sun doesn't go back nor forward, up or down but Satan does. (.Job 1:7)

You tell me how many degrees there are in a hour on a sun dial and I will tell you how many minutes there are in a degree on a compass.
Yeah ok.....the verbiage is clear...and games involving symantics is ignorant....

24 hours × 60 minutes ÷ 360 degrees = 4 minutes × 10 degrees = 40 minutes

obviously it was the light on the dial and their perception was the sun going back on the dial....geesh!!
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
2,881
451
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#33
The fact that a person can be unaware of the passage of time does not mean that time ceases to exist, or is simply a mental construct. A man in a lift cannot tell whether he is in free fall under gravity or being accelerated by the lift, does this mean that gravity doesn’t exist? Without a mind, gravity may not ‘mean’ anything, but it can still be experienced. It is not nothing
Gravity works on objects so its existence actually depends on objects, if the there were no objects in the entire universe, would gravity still exist independently? how?
Time does not work on objects but since passage of time is an experience, its existence also depends on consciousness and without consciousness, it'd be nothing. This is how i view these things because to me, the 19th century view point makes sense.

You are taking a nineteenth century view of time. In the twentieth century Einstein showed that space and time are properties of the universe, part of the substance of reality. Even if man did not exist, planets would orbit suns because the mass of these suns distort the fabric of space-time.
This is the strength of science. It tells us surprising things that are true, even if they are counterintuitive.
There are so many things that are part of reality but not properties of the universe, for instance, Darkness and silence.

Q1. Are darkness and silence real? Did they exist only when the universe came into existence? If they did, does it mean before the existence of the universe there was light and also noise?

To me, all reality exists within a conscious mind and when i talk of mind, i'm not confining myself to man because God in His entirety is a conscious mind (spirit), but His view is different from our view. So, therefore, our minds brings to reality these nothingness that has always existed -these include time/space/darkness/silence and many other things including measurements such as liters and kilograms.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
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#34
Yeah ok.....the verbiage is clear...and games involving symantics is ignorant....
Your response is indicative of someone is who desperately lacked connection and attachment in childhood.

24 hours × 60 minutes ÷ 360 degrees = 4 minutes × 10 degrees = 40 minutes
I take it that this is somehow your response to the rhetorical question regarding the number of degrees in a hour on a sun dial, since it was a reference to a sundial compass due to the reference in 2 Kings 20 is only to a dial of Azah while as a sun dial in Isaiah 38
  • And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz. 2 Kings 20:11
  • Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down. Isaiah 38:8
But I would suggest that if one was to associate the lines on a sun dial with degrees in stead of hours;

how many degrees there are in a hour on a sun dial
then understanding as referenced in John 11:9 regarding there being 12 hours in a day then since a sun dial would represent 180◦ so each hour would represent 15 degrees. But as far as how many minutes there are in a degree on a compass,I would suggest that the answer is 60, or which is expressed as 0°60' 0'' which represents 1 degree.

obviously it was the light on the dial and their perception was the sun going back on the dial....geesh!!
That is why man doth not live by scriptures alone but every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
38,159
10,427
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#37
Your response is indicative of someone is who desperately lacked connection and attachment in childhood.



I take it that this is somehow your response to the rhetorical question regarding the number of degrees in a hour on a sun dial, since it was a reference to a sundial compass due to the reference in 2 Kings 20 is only to a dial of Azah while as a sun dial in Isaiah 38
  • And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz. 2 Kings 20:11
  • Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down. Isaiah 38:8
But I would suggest that if one was to associate the lines on a sun dial with degrees in stead of hours;

then understanding as referenced in John 11:9 regarding there being 12 hours in a day then since a sun dial would represent 180◦ so each hour would represent 15 degrees. But as far as how many minutes there are in a degree on a compass,I would suggest that the answer is 60, or which is expressed as 0°60' 0'' which represents 1 degree.



That is why man doth not live by scriptures alone but every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
It is obvious that you fail to understand there are 360 degrees in a circle....maybe you missed basic math in school....!
 

Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
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#38
We are saying the same thing about time but from a different perspective....regardless of the guesses, supposition, ideas and views the end result was God did something supernatural.......
Exactly!
 

Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
253
57
28
#39
Gravity works on objects so its existence actually depends on objects, if the there were no objects in the entire universe, would gravity still exist independently? how?
Time does not work on objects but since passage of time is an experience, its existence also depends on consciousness and without consciousness, it'd be nothing. This is how i view these things because to me, the 19th century view point makes sense.



There are so many things that are part of reality but not properties of the universe, for instance, Darkness and silence.

Q1. Are darkness and silence real? Did they exist only when the universe came into existence? If they did, does it mean before the existence of the universe there was light and also noise?

To me, all reality exists within a conscious mind and when i talk of mind, i'm not confining myself to man because God in His entirety is a conscious mind (spirit), but His view is different from our view. So, therefore, our minds brings to reality these nothingness that has always existed -these include time/space/darkness/silence and many other things including measurements such as liters and kilograms.
Silence and darkness are simply the absence of sound and light. They are not independent entities. As such they are properties of the universe, that is, default positions. You have silence unless you set up vibrations in a medium. There is no noise in space, because there is no physical medium. But the laws of sound exist in the universe. You just have to create the conditions. So existence is entirely distinct from experience.
Of course the nineteen century view of time, as the rate at which events occur, makes more sense. But we cannot abandon progress simply because things become less intuitive. Why should everything make sense? God is bigger than we are! He made everything according to his design. We have to take what he has given us. Saying that I will only accept what makes sense to me, sounds like the kind of thing I would expect from an atheist.
In Ps 19:1 it says ‘the heavens declare the glory of God’ now imagine if all the laws in the universe could be explained in terms of 19th century physics. That is, the universe ran like a big clock under simple rules. This view was popular at the beginning of the 20th century. What would men say? ‘That God is not so smart! His universe is really very simple! Man is clearly the ultimate intelligence.’ Slandering celestial beings has always been popular among the pagans. But what do we find? That the creation is fantastically complicated! That man is struggling to explain the strangeness and wonder of the universe. The more he knows, the more he realises he doesn’t know. To me this is testimony to the greatness of God.
 

Miri

The Thingy Member
Jul 22, 2012
8,937
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UK age 50
#40
Might it be that God, the light of the world, provided light in the darkness
to make it seem like it was a long day?

After all light was created before, the sun moon and stars.

In Him there is no darkness God is light. He doesn’t need the sun to give light.

I have seen the “light” of God in a dream, it’s far brighter, purer and whiter
than the sun.
But then why wouldn’t the creator of the sun, not be able to shine brighter
than the sun He made?