Just another OSAS thread
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And that's where how we view the relationship of time and eternity comes into play. I picture it as like a wheel, with God in the hub and time running along the rim. That allows us to see how God can touch any point in time, at any point in time (like randomly inserted spokes). And how any and every point in time ties to a single point in eternity. If you can picture that, then you can see how someone could be with us and then not in time, but never be with us in eternity.
So in time, we can take hold of and (to be determined) let go of salvation, while in eternity those who let go were never saved, since they did not persevere in it to the end of (their) time.
This is getting interesting
So in time, we can take hold of and (to be determined) let go of salvation, while in eternity those who let go were never saved, since they did not persevere in it to the end of (their) time.
This is getting interesting
David paid a physical price for his sins as recorded throughout his life in the scriptures....and in the Psalms....I believe David had physical ailments later in his life due to his sin......but never lost his sonship
1. Some cut loose for the destruction of the flesh so the spirit is saved in the day of Christ
2. Some backslide and forgotten that the have been purged
3. Some have works of wood, hay and stubble which burn yet are saved so as by fire
4. Some squander their inheritance by riotous living like the prodigal
5. Some are vessels of dishonor yet in the house
6. Some get chastised and whipped by God for walking contrary
7. Some God just kills in the flesh and takes home early
1. Some cut loose for the destruction of the flesh so the spirit is saved in the day of Christ
2. Some backslide and forgotten that the have been purged
3. Some have works of wood, hay and stubble which burn yet are saved so as by fire
4. Some squander their inheritance by riotous living like the prodigal
5. Some are vessels of dishonor yet in the house
6. Some get chastised and whipped by God for walking contrary
7. Some God just kills in the flesh and takes home early
Again, excellent. You are precisely right and that like your first is an awesome list. I'm keeping those in my file actually. Good job.
But...
Those are works and rewards (or punishment) for works. We have come to the idea that salvation is based on belief, which is not a work. So, just to assume one retains the freedom to chose, if they chose to stop believing that would not be a work either. But would they still be saved?
But...
Those are works and rewards (or punishment) for works. We have come to the idea that salvation is based on belief, which is not a work. So, just to assume one retains the freedom to chose, if they chose to stop believing that would not be a work either. But would they still be saved?
And that brings us to our current point. Regarding the OS part, one is not saved by works but by belief, which is not a work, but which arises out of the freedom to choose.
Helooo AS! Once saved, do we lose the freedom to choose? If we choose not to believe (which is not a work) are we still saved?
Or do we have the freedom God gave Adam and the Jews, to choose to remove ourselves from His grace independent of our works?
OSSF? Once Saved Still Free?
Helooo AS! Once saved, do we lose the freedom to choose? If we choose not to believe (which is not a work) are we still saved?
Or do we have the freedom God gave Adam and the Jews, to choose to remove ourselves from His grace independent of our works?
OSSF? Once Saved Still Free?
K
What would have happened to David if he did not repent?
All we have to do is go by Gods words for that answer and see what He did to others who turned away from Him to sins;
Those saved out of Egypt that then turned their back on Him to idol worship and did not repent when given the chance by Moses:
Exodus 32:33
And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Does it not say that after belief if find ourselves in the position that leads us to believe not that he cannot deny himself?
2nd Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Many have trusted Christ, have not grown in the faith and been weak in their faith...they have something happen in their life and they stumble and their faith fails to some extent.....YET Christ will FINISH that GOOD work that he begun in you/them and will remain FAITHFUL because he cannot deny HIMSELF....the believer has been covered in the blood and Christ will lose NOTHING that the FATHER has given him.....!
2nd Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Many have trusted Christ, have not grown in the faith and been weak in their faith...they have something happen in their life and they stumble and their faith fails to some extent.....YET Christ will FINISH that GOOD work that he begun in you/them and will remain FAITHFUL because he cannot deny HIMSELF....the believer has been covered in the blood and Christ will lose NOTHING that the FATHER has given him.....!
K
That scripture is about those who overcome, and I do not disagree with this one bit.
RickyZ asked me what would have happened to David if he did not repent, and the bible clearly shows those of the OT that did not repent of their ways were blotted out of His book. This applies to the new covenant to, as if a person does not repent of their ways will not receive eternal life.
Revelation 3:5 (KJV) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
[HR][/HR]Revelation 20:15 (KJV) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
[HR][/HR]Revelation 21:27 (KJV) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
[HR][/HR]Revelation 22:19 (KJV) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
[HR][/HR]
Seems pretty plain to me.
[HR][/HR]Revelation 20:15 (KJV) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
[HR][/HR]Revelation 21:27 (KJV) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
[HR][/HR]Revelation 22:19 (KJV) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
[HR][/HR]
Seems pretty plain to me.
Still, you are spot on, become hot and cold and stumble and fall and backslide et al. None of that threatens their faith or their Fathers hold on them. People can doubt... that doesn't threaten it. Once saved people can do any dang evil work they want and they are still safe in God's hands. Because, as we saw before the intermission, one is not saved by works, but by belief, which is not a work. Ergo, one can not loose salvation by their works. As bad as they may get.
But can they by disbelief?
Is there a difference between bad works and apostasy?
But can they by disbelief?
Is there a difference between bad works and apostasy?
Now I've often wondered about these. Both 'written in' and 'blotted out' sound like actions, like it was an empty line in the book until God took the action to write your name on it and then subsequently took the action to erase it. Something has to be written before it can be erased, right? And yes it was written since the beginning of time but if you go back to that hub and rim thing you can see how that might work. But it really comes down to what gets your name written in - believing in God's Redeemer, whether OT or New T.
And so what then what (might?) get it erased - apostasy?
Is apostasy a work?
1Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. 3Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 4No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. 5And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. 6The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits. 7Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
8Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: 9Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. 10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
*
Excellent choice, in full context. Let's look at verse 13 and 12, reversed:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
In 13, The NIV, the ESV, the NASB, and ASV (among others) use the word faithless in place of believe not. Do we have an expert of the original language on this word? I've studied but am admittedly rusty on those. But yeah, in this verse we even believe not and He keeps His Word. We are still in His hands.
But then 12 says that if we deny Him He denies us.
Could this use of belief apply more to a weak faith than an outright denial? Is it one thing to wonder momentarily if God really exists, versus actually coming out and saying He doesn't?
8Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: 9Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. 10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
*
Excellent choice, in full context. Let's look at verse 13 and 12, reversed:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
In 13, The NIV, the ESV, the NASB, and ASV (among others) use the word faithless in place of believe not. Do we have an expert of the original language on this word? I've studied but am admittedly rusty on those. But yeah, in this verse we even believe not and He keeps His Word. We are still in His hands.
But then 12 says that if we deny Him He denies us.
Could this use of belief apply more to a weak faith than an outright denial? Is it one thing to wonder momentarily if God really exists, versus actually coming out and saying He doesn't?
8
A free gift, is a free gift. If someone knocks on your door and you open it and standing in front of you is a man who is holding out a gold bar for you to take and says... "Here, Id like to give this gold bar to you as a gift. You owe me nothing for it, it is free. Please take it, I have plenty more." Then you open your hand and receive the gold bar and close the door. When your wife comes home you excitedly explain to her the nice man who showed up at your door and gave you free gold bar to do with as you wish!!" Your wife asks, "What? He gave it to you…free? You didn't have to pay him or do anything for it?" Of course you would answer "Nope, he just handed it to me as a gift!"
Of course you had to get up, walk to the door, open the door, and open up your hand to receive the gold bar. But you would spend the rest of your life telling people about the nice man who gave you a gold bar absolutely free, and you had to do NOTHING for it. Don't confuse "our receiving" with "our works".
Of course you had to get up, walk to the door, open the door, and open up your hand to receive the gold bar. But you would spend the rest of your life telling people about the nice man who gave you a gold bar absolutely free, and you had to do NOTHING for it. Don't confuse "our receiving" with "our works".
Hmmm I wonder whether this one is being twisted too - *sigh*.
The fact that the one who overcomes is not blotted out of the book of life, does not necessarily mean that the one who has not overcome is. It is not a warning. It is a strong negative giving solid assurance of what will not happen (like Moses they will not be blotted out of the book of life), , and is in specific contrast to the fact that they will rather be confessed before the Father. Not one but the other. Indeed if it is the Lamb's book of life their names could not be blotted out for their names have been written in it from the foundation of the world.
The fact that the one who overcomes is not blotted out of the book of life, does not necessarily mean that the one who has not overcome is. It is not a warning. It is a strong negative giving solid assurance of what will not happen (like Moses they will not be blotted out of the book of life), , and is in specific contrast to the fact that they will rather be confessed before the Father. Not one but the other. Indeed if it is the Lamb's book of life their names could not be blotted out for their names have been written in it from the foundation of the world.
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A negative does not necessarily mean that the opposite is true. To be told that something will NOT happen to you when used as a contrast is not to say that it will happen to others.
We should remember that ancient cities had two books. The book of those who were alive whose names were blotted out at death. And a book of heroes.
So the next question is, what is the book of life? If it is the book of the living which Moses was willing to be blotted out of it clearly does not refer to eternal destiny. If everyone's name is written in the book of life, because they are living, it simply means that rather than dying they will be confessed before the Father. Those who will die are those who refused to believe. Thus it is simply separating saved from unsaved. It says nothing about eternal security.
[HR][/HR] Here is confirmation that it is the book of the living. The names of unbelievers had been removed from it. Their names were no longer among the living.[HR][/HR] this book is distinguished by being called the Lamb's book of life in which names were entered from the foundation of the world. It is not the same as the book of life (otherwise why the new designation?) In this instance their salvation was deteermined from the foundation of the world. (It is always called 'the Lamb's Book of Life')[HR][/HR] Here we are back to the book of the living. UNBELIEVERS who reject or misuse God's word will have no lasting part in the book of life. Their names will be removed because they refused to believe.
To me too, but not in the way you mean
One of the sad things to me is the way in which OSAS (horrible phrase) is dealt with. Christians talk as if salvation was OUR work. We have to get on with it and do what we can, with God's help of course.
But that is not what Scripture teaches. Scripture teaches that God/Christ is our Savior. IT IS HE WHO SAVES. What would you say of a doctor who said he would 'save you' and then left you to heal yourself? Jesus Christ does not fail in His work of saving sinners (1 Cor 1.8-9; Phil 2.6; JOHN 4.39).
Once we have come to Jesus Christ in our weakness and frailty and have committed our salvation into His hands, our salvation is His responsibility not ours. Part of what we need to be saved from is unbelief and disobedience. Do you think He will fail? Of course not.
That is why we can say 'I have been saved once for all' (aorist tense). I am being saved (present tense). I will be saved (future tense). And I know it is all true because the Great Physician cannot fail.
For sheep there were two dangers. One was that they might wilfully wander off and be lost. The other was that they might be seized by wild beasts. Jesus allowed for BOTH. 'MY sheep hear My voice, and I know them and they follow ME. I give to them eternal life and they will NEVER PERISH (wander off and be finally lost) nor will anyone pluck them from MY hand (no fear of wild beasts or Satan). Thank God I am safe in the Shepherd's hand. Someone might say, 'we can wriggle out of His hand'. Quite apart from how ridiculous such a thought is (is the Shepherd incompetent?) it is catered for by 'he will never perish'. Christ's assurance is complete and certain.
But that is not what Scripture teaches. Scripture teaches that God/Christ is our Savior. IT IS HE WHO SAVES. What would you say of a doctor who said he would 'save you' and then left you to heal yourself? Jesus Christ does not fail in His work of saving sinners (1 Cor 1.8-9; Phil 2.6; JOHN 4.39).
Once we have come to Jesus Christ in our weakness and frailty and have committed our salvation into His hands, our salvation is His responsibility not ours. Part of what we need to be saved from is unbelief and disobedience. Do you think He will fail? Of course not.
That is why we can say 'I have been saved once for all' (aorist tense). I am being saved (present tense). I will be saved (future tense). And I know it is all true because the Great Physician cannot fail.
For sheep there were two dangers. One was that they might wilfully wander off and be lost. The other was that they might be seized by wild beasts. Jesus allowed for BOTH. 'MY sheep hear My voice, and I know them and they follow ME. I give to them eternal life and they will NEVER PERISH (wander off and be finally lost) nor will anyone pluck them from MY hand (no fear of wild beasts or Satan). Thank God I am safe in the Shepherd's hand. Someone might say, 'we can wriggle out of His hand'. Quite apart from how ridiculous such a thought is (is the Shepherd incompetent?) it is catered for by 'he will never perish'. Christ's assurance is complete and certain.