Justification

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

safswan

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
134
44
28
#61
There are many who realize their sin and receive Christ as Savior and do not receive any discipleship, no church, no Bible, and will eventually fall back into the world through circumstances of life. Their works will be burned at the judgment seat of Christ, receive no rewards, but are saved eternally.

I assume you base your statement above on your interpretation of I Corinthians 3.However,a proper examination of that passage shows it contradicts the position you hold.

I Corinthians 3,is a passage used by proponents to support the, "Once saved always saved", doctrine.They claim it supports the teaching that whereas lack of good works or the presence of sin will result in a loss of rewards these cannot affect the salvation of a saint.Below is an example of a discussion with a proponent of the doctrine and the explanation of the works of I Corinthians 3.The argument is similar to your own.


J. F. wrote: "We know that saved or unsaved, we will all give an account to the Lord - the saved at the Judgment Seat of Christ (BEMA judgment) and the unsaved at the Great White Throne judgment. At those judgments our works will be tried to see if they are of any value - not unto salvation but unto reward (Bema Judgment) or condemnation (Great White Throne) 1 Cor 3:13-15."



The passage is taken out of context.The context is Paul's and others labour for the Lord.He spoke of the different ways in which they all worked to build the "building" of God.

"For we are labourers together with God:ye are God's husbandry,ye are God's building."(I Corinthians 3:9)

It is the make up of the building which is going to be tried i.e. the gold,silver,hay etc. This represents the persons/assemblies brought to the Lord by Paul and others.(See also II Timothy 2:19-21)

If the make up of the building abides in the time of being tried by fire, then the labourer will receive a reward because of this.If however it does not, he will not receive a reward but this will not affect his salvation.(I Corinthians 3:12-15)

The work being referred to here is their work in building God's temple.(I Corinthians 3:16,17) ]

It is about Paul's and other's work in building God's building.It is about those who by their work, came to the Lord.(ICorinthians 3:5,6) He called himself a masterbuilder and others build.(I Corinthians 3:10-12)

This represents the persons/assemblies brought to the Lord by Paul and others.Or as Paul says:"Who then is Paul,and who is Apollos,but ministers by whom ye believed,even as the Lord gave to every man."(I Corinthians 3:5)

And:

"...for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."(ICorinthians 4:15)

It is not efforts which will be tried,but the make-up of the building,ie. the work produced.(I Corinthians 3:12-15).

This in fact,rather than supporting the OSAS doctrine,is showing that some of those brought to the Lord(the saved) through Paul etc. are wood,hay and stubble and hence will not survive the fire when they are tried.Paul etc. will suffer a loss where those brought to the Lord are concerned and hence their rewards, but this will not affect Paul's salvation if he endures the fire himself.


safswan.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
5,405
2,648
113
#62
I assume you base your statement above on your interpretation of I Corinthians 3.However,a proper examination of that passage shows it contradicts the position you hold.

I Corinthians 3,is a passage used by proponents to support the, "Once saved always saved", doctrine.They claim it supports the teaching that whereas lack of good works or the presence of sin will result in a loss of rewards these cannot affect the salvation of a saint.Below is an example of a discussion with a proponent of the doctrine and the explanation of the works of I Corinthians 3.The argument is similar to your own.


J. F. wrote: "We know that saved or unsaved, we will all give an account to the Lord - the saved at the Judgment Seat of Christ (BEMA judgment) and the unsaved at the Great White Throne judgment. At those judgments our works will be tried to see if they are of any value - not unto salvation but unto reward (Bema Judgment) or condemnation (Great White Throne) 1 Cor 3:13-15."



The passage is taken out of context.The context is Paul's and others labour for the Lord.He spoke of the different ways in which they all worked to build the "building" of God.

"For we are labourers together with God:ye are God's husbandry,ye are God's building."(I Corinthians 3:9)

It is the make up of the building which is going to be tried i.e. the gold,silver,hay etc. This represents the persons/assemblies brought to the Lord by Paul and others.(See also II Timothy 2:19-21)

If the make up of the building abides in the time of being tried by fire, then the labourer will receive a reward because of this.If however it does not, he will not receive a reward but this will not affect his salvation.(I Corinthians 3:12-15)

The work being referred to here is their work in building God's temple.(I Corinthians 3:16,17) ]

It is about Paul's and other's work in building God's building.It is about those who by their work, came to the Lord.(ICorinthians 3:5,6) He called himself a masterbuilder and others build.(I Corinthians 3:10-12)

This represents the persons/assemblies brought to the Lord by Paul and others.Or as Paul says:"Who then is Paul,and who is Apollos,but ministers by whom ye believed,even as the Lord gave to every man."(I Corinthians 3:5)

And:

"...for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."(ICorinthians 4:15)

It is not efforts which will be tried,but the make-up of the building,ie. the work produced.(I Corinthians 3:12-15).

This in fact,rather than supporting the OSAS doctrine,is showing that some of those brought to the Lord(the saved) through Paul etc. are wood,hay and stubble and hence will not survive the fire when they are tried.Paul etc. will suffer a loss where those brought to the Lord are concerned and hence their rewards, but this will not affect Paul's salvation if he endures the fire himself.


safswan.
According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
7,679
5,111
113
66
Anaheim, Cali.
#63
According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Like gold! Back in those days gold, lead, iron and brass to name a few metals were often mixed together. To create counterfeit silver and gold. Metallurgists didn't know yet how to test the metals using chemicals like acid, to determine the purity. They did know however how to build furnaces and crucibles. All of the base metals have different melting points and densities the 'smiths' (for lack of a better word) would put the metal in a pot and melt them down. When pure gold is melted cooled and solidifies it remains pure gold. The "bastardized" metals looked like gold, and with lead, weighed nearly the same but all had different melting points and separated.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
7,679
5,111
113
66
Anaheim, Cali.
#64
weighed nearly the same but all had different melting points and separated.[/QUOTE]
So the craftsman could determine if it was fake or real. Much like separating sheep from goats. (Matthew 25) Meanwhile if exposed in a fiery furnace the flammable organic pollutants would burn away leaving trace amounts of carbon and base metals. That's the original secular meaning of "Tried by fire."

It burns the trash away and separates the real valuable metals from the junk metals.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,331
2,741
113
#65
You must be dense after reading my first post in this thread if you think I believe in faith plus anything for salvation.....and again YOU embellished it not me.......the bible is clear.....eternal life <---the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.....I suggest you look that word up and open the peeps...

Show a verse which states they lost salvation........even the 70 that walked away due to a hard message they could not bear <---- JESUS said to rejoice that their names were written were exactly?

Salvation that can be lost is not a salvation that the bible portrays....
dc, “put some sugar” on it! Speak the Truth with LOVE.

(Love is the sweetness - it makes The Word taste like HONEY.)
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,331
2,741
113
#66
Now you accuse......keep thinking what you want pal....all you did was quote one parable that does not say anyone lost salvation....seems to me your own boot fits your own foot.....!!!
dc, “douse those words with some honey!”

Tim is our brother, not our enemy.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,331
2,741
113
#67
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds/works of the law. <----the simplicity found in Christ as opposed to your wall of text which conflates numerous issues and did not answer the question.......

But, faith “works” by LOVE.

Without LOVE, there is no faith - there is nothing.

God knows those that “love Him” because faith works in them.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,331
2,741
113
#68
Thank you for your respectful post and scriptures to support your view. The thing about osas is, there is scripture in the bible to support it, and scripture that opposes it. The bible does not contradict itself, we would agree there I am sure. So what do we make of scripture concerning this subject, for normally I would never debate it, as it does not really get anywhere.
We say that God accepts us through faith in his son and not by works. We are saved, even when we are dead in transgressions(Eph2:5)
Can I put something to you? What if a person responded to an altar call at church one night, and accepted Christ as their saviour. But they were making a shallow commitment. Would that person then be placed in a saved state? In my view they would. But God, who is all knowing knows the commitment is not a full blooded one so to speak, the cost has not been counted to use Jesus words. Such a person may well walk away from the faith. Hence, scriptures I could(I won't now) quote would support the non osas belief regarding such people.
Others make a full commitment, only God sees the heart. For them, are all of the verses you quoted. You may not agree with me, but if we only cherry pick the verses we like in the bible, we limit the knowledge available to us, and we get a slanted message. I am not saying you do that at all I assure you, it is just what happens when we do cherry pick. And in my view, the best thing to do, is to seek a belief where you do not end up having your own set of scriptures that has to ignore others
God bless
Hi Tim,

When we speak of “faith,” we must never forget the crucial role that LOVE plays.

Faith without works is dead, BUT, faith works by LOVE.

So, when receiving Christ as Lord and Savior by faith........it must be done with LOVE for Him and what He has done for us.

God bless.
:love:(y)
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,331
2,741
113
#69
t is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Heb6:4-8

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;

13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself. 2Tim2:11-13

I am not going to have a scripture quoting contest with you regarding this, it is futile. Just showed you, a person can get salvation and end up losing it
LOVE is the key. Faith works by love.

God knows those that love Him. Those that do not love Him, He says, “Depart from Me. I never knew you.”
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,331
2,741
113
#70
ROMANS 4 (GOD'S WORD TO ALL)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
The faith that Abraham had worked according to his LOVE for God which was exceedingly great! :love:(y)
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,331
2,741
113
#71
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
It appears that the very important ingredient of LOVE in regards to faith is being forgotten.

Faith works by love. Don’t forget love.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,331
2,741
113
#73
In the parable of the sower, Jesus spoke of people who made a shallow commitment but set out on the path. When trials and persecutions came they walked away. According to your theology they must have been in a saved state before they walked away
In the third example, people kept getting sidetracked by worldly things, Jesus did not say they walked away, but rather they did not mature in the faith, for you mature by practising right from wrong.

One group we can say did not have osas, the other group did.
In the parable, do you see the “secret ingredient” of love for God and His Word?

Without LOVE, faith doesn’t work.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,331
2,741
113
#74
Please read and ponder Galatians 5. Selah. :love:
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,021
9,748
113
54
#76
It appears that the very important ingredient of LOVE in regards to faith is being forgotten.

Faith works by love. Don’t forget love.
Love is not forgotten and we are still justified by faith. (Romans 5:1)

We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5)

1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. :love:
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,328
2,845
113
#77
Justification is by Faith alone in the Atonement of Jesus alone..

Anyone who adds their works and makes salvation a mix of Grace and works has rejected the sufficiency of the Atonement of Jesus.. Thus when the day of judgement comes they will have No atonement for their sins.. They will have to try and boast about their wonderful works.. But Jesus will have non of it and will tell them to depart..

Matthew 7: KJV
22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? {23} And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
 

safswan

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
134
44
28
#78
According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Nothing wrong with this emphasis.However I hope you realise the works being referred to are the souls Paul has brought to the Lord in building the house of God.As the passage says:

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."(I Corinthians 3:5-9)
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
5,405
2,648
113
#79
Nothing wrong with this emphasis.However I hope you realise the works being referred to are the souls Paul has brought to the Lord in building the house of God.As the passage says:

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."(I Corinthians 3:5-9)
Welp. To be honest I am calling my emphasis a mistake. The context is clear and you are absolutely correct IMO. I was too fast on the draw on that one I must admit.
 

safswan

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
134
44
28
#80
Justification is by Faith alone in the Atonement of Jesus alone..

Anyone who adds their works and makes salvation a mix of Grace and works has rejected the sufficiency of the Atonement of Jesus.. Thus when the day of judgement comes they will have No atonement for their sins.. They will have to try and boast about their wonderful works.. But Jesus will have non of it and will tell them to depart..

Matthew 7: KJV
22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? {23} And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Rather than speaking against persons who live righteously, this passage is actually a warning to those persons/preachers/pastors who preach mightily,heal the sick and prophesy in the Lord's name but the steal the church's money while committing adultery with members of the flock.