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For your information you misunderstand me, I am not saying or even intimating anything about the Athanisian Creed, Arianism or the purpose of the Council Nicea at 325AD. I'm telling you that the doctrine of the Trinity is easily proveable by the Bible alone and it is a matter of great importance because it has salvic ramifications especially if you deny the deity of Jesus Christ.
And for your information this discussion has nothing to do with "how I feel." It has to do with understanding the Bible and when inovators like you come along speaking of things you know nothing about despite having two doctrates by saying the trinity teaching is "divisive" then I will always speak out. Btw, my trick knee tells me you probably belong to a liberal church, am I right?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
And for your information this discussion has nothing to do with "how I feel." It has to do with understanding the Bible and when inovators like you come along speaking of things you know nothing about despite having two doctrates by saying the trinity teaching is "divisive" then I will always speak out. Btw, my trick knee tells me you probably belong to a liberal church, am I right?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
E
I wondered, since there is alot of talk about the Trinity, how many of us can support our view of the Trinity with scripture. I do believe in the Trinity myself but it was conversations with groups such as the Mormons that encouraged me to dig to see what the Bible really says about what I believe. And honestly that is why I posted this. Conversations with people who have opposing views will really help both sides grow, as long as their done in love.
I agree that all 3 have false beliefs, but over time I have seen many false belief and doctrines in many churches including baptist, pentecostal, methodist and others. I agree that we should hate false religion but many forget to still love the people in that religion. I have had people tell me not to talk to Mormons because "something might rub off on you" I have fellow "Christians" physically attack them at my door.
When the deciples asked Jesus how they would know His true deciples what was His answer?
I also would like to point out that JW and Mormons will both be more than happy to provide verses on why they believe in their view of the Godhead (the Word Trinity isn't in the Bible) If they tell you about what Jesus did for you and you believe, and they show in scripture why they believe the way they do, how does God view that? Just questions I think about.
I believe that we who are in Christ Jesus are the light of the world. We should let that light shine on all peoples. I believe things like anger and arrogance hide that light. And know that the Lord Jesus is bigger than any false god that any false religion could teach so don't shy away. Show them the love that God first showed you.
I agree that all 3 have false beliefs, but over time I have seen many false belief and doctrines in many churches including baptist, pentecostal, methodist and others. I agree that we should hate false religion but many forget to still love the people in that religion. I have had people tell me not to talk to Mormons because "something might rub off on you" I have fellow "Christians" physically attack them at my door.
When the deciples asked Jesus how they would know His true deciples what was His answer?
I also would like to point out that JW and Mormons will both be more than happy to provide verses on why they believe in their view of the Godhead (the Word Trinity isn't in the Bible) If they tell you about what Jesus did for you and you believe, and they show in scripture why they believe the way they do, how does God view that? Just questions I think about.
I believe that we who are in Christ Jesus are the light of the world. We should let that light shine on all peoples. I believe things like anger and arrogance hide that light. And know that the Lord Jesus is bigger than any false god that any false religion could teach so don't shy away. Show them the love that God first showed you.
E
For your information you misunderstand me, I am not saying or even intimating anything about the Athanisian Creed, Arianism or the purpose of the Council Nicea at 325AD. I'm telling you that the doctrine of the Trinity is easily proveable by the Bible alone and it is a matter of great importance because it has salvic ramifications especially if you deny the deity of Jesus Christ.
And for your information this discussion has nothing to do with "how I feel." It has to do with understanding the Bible and when inovators like you come along speaking of things you know nothing about despite having two doctrates by saying the trinity teaching is "divisive" then I will always speak out. Btw, my trick knee tells me you probably belong to a liberal church, am I right?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
And for your information this discussion has nothing to do with "how I feel." It has to do with understanding the Bible and when inovators like you come along speaking of things you know nothing about despite having two doctrates by saying the trinity teaching is "divisive" then I will always speak out. Btw, my trick knee tells me you probably belong to a liberal church, am I right?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Here's a little meat for you mac? The main issue in all of this is not the Trinity but rather, "Who is Jesus Christ?" This is based on what Jesus said to His disciples at Matthew 16:13-19, specfically what Peter said at vs16, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Now, the word Trinity was coined by Tertullian about 100 and some years later which obviously refers to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit who are identifed in the Bible as God. In other words, there are only three "Persons" in the Bible that are identified as God.
You should know that I do not believe the Trinity is a requirement for salvation. It is the "RESULT" of salvation, for you cannot know Jesus Christ and somehow miss the fact that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presense of the Holy Spirit of God and somehow miss that He is God. And of course we all know that God the Father is God. Please read Romans 8:9-11.
So my question for you mac, does the Bible clearly identify all three persons of the Trinity as God? I should also note that the word "trinity" is a word of convience because when it is used we know were talking about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is anothe issue to deal with and that is when you ask people, "Who is Jesus Christ" they will say 99% of the time He is the Son of God. But what does it mean that He is the Son of God? Hope this helps and if you have questions I will be happy to answer them.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Now, the word Trinity was coined by Tertullian about 100 and some years later which obviously refers to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit who are identifed in the Bible as God. In other words, there are only three "Persons" in the Bible that are identified as God.
You should know that I do not believe the Trinity is a requirement for salvation. It is the "RESULT" of salvation, for you cannot know Jesus Christ and somehow miss the fact that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presense of the Holy Spirit of God and somehow miss that He is God. And of course we all know that God the Father is God. Please read Romans 8:9-11.
So my question for you mac, does the Bible clearly identify all three persons of the Trinity as God? I should also note that the word "trinity" is a word of convience because when it is used we know were talking about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is anothe issue to deal with and that is when you ask people, "Who is Jesus Christ" they will say 99% of the time He is the Son of God. But what does it mean that He is the Son of God? Hope this helps and if you have questions I will be happy to answer them.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
You write that you don't believe that belief in the Trinity is required for salvation. Is that to say that you don't believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all essential to one's salvation?
Let me ask you evan, have you been approached by the mormon missionary's or the jw's for that matter? I know the mormons will not ask you about the trinity but the Jw's when you are discussing religion with them automatically assume one to be a trinitarian. In fact, since you said you believe in the Trinity how would you explain it to a mormon or Jw or anybody for that matter?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
D
Here's a start:
Trinity - Nave's Topical Bible Concordance Online
Trinity - Nave's Topical Bible Concordance Online
M
For your information you misunderstand me, I am not saying or even intimating anything about the Athanisian Creed, Arianism or the purpose of the Council Nicea at 325AD. I'm telling you that the doctrine of the Trinity is easily proveable by the Bible alone and it is a matter of great importance because it has salvic ramifications especially if you deny the deity of Jesus Christ.
And for your information this discussion has nothing to do with "how I feel." It has to do with understanding the Bible and when inovators like you come along speaking of things you know nothing about despite having two doctrates by saying the trinity teaching is "divisive" then I will always speak out. Btw, my trick knee tells me you probably belong to a liberal church, am I right?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
And for your information this discussion has nothing to do with "how I feel." It has to do with understanding the Bible and when inovators like you come along speaking of things you know nothing about despite having two doctrates by saying the trinity teaching is "divisive" then I will always speak out. Btw, my trick knee tells me you probably belong to a liberal church, am I right?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I do NOT deny the deity of the Messiah. I celebrate it.
What I have said, over and over, is that I deny making a belief in the individual deity( i.e. Yahshua as seperate being than YHWH yet still a God - Literally His son.) over His being a part of a three in one entity.
Also notice I did not come down on a side of that distinction.
Scripture plainly points out his Deity. Belief in that is key Belief of whether or not He is a trinity is of little to no import to a persons being saved.
And my belief on whether or not it is a trinity is unknown to you. Although you seem to think you know.
As far as my being a liberal church inovator who knows nothing about the bible. You are welcome to your opinion of me good or ill. Messiahs opinion matters a lot more to me than yours.
You have been on the attack at me and yet you still dont even know my position on the trinity other than my believing it not a salvation issue. (An opinion you once agreed with but in your last post (quoted above) were not quite sure of.)
BTW. Your trick knee is not eorking for you. I have been ordained twice Lutheran and then Baptist. I am now Natsarim. What you might call Hebrew Roots. None of my fellowships have ever been Liberal. Although the Lutheran Conference I was affiliated with many years ago appears to be making steps that way.
I am going to bed as it is pretty late here. Blessings upon you brother. May you find the mote.
Ok fair enough test. I said that I do not believe trinitarianism is a REQUIREMENT for salvation. It is the RESULT of salvation. Why? Because you cannot know Jesus Christ and somehow miss the fact that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presense of the Holy Spirit of God and somehow miss that He is God. I then gave mac Romans 8:9-11 to read.
What comes first regarding this whole issue is "Who is Jesus Christ." When you know who Jesus is then Trinitarianism is true because the Holy Spirit confirms that He is God as well as the Holy Spirit is God and of course God the Father is God. Furthermore, the Bible itself identifies the Son being God, the Holy Spirit being God and the Father is God in numerous places and in various ways.
What mac has said is the following: "There is absolutely no importance in my mind of the concept of Individual Diety over Trinitarian Diety." He also said the Trinity teaching causes division, that I can agree with to a certain extent but that does not preclude the Trinity from being a false teaching or not true. The division is caused by a lack of understanding the Bible.
Here, I'll give you a working definition of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity is not an "assumption." It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is BASED on the fact that the Bible is EXPLICIT in telling us ther there is, was and forever will be only ONE God AND the fact that the Bible IDENTIFIES three and only three persons as God. So, is this staement true or false? If it's false, please tell me why or how is it false? If it's true please tell me why or how it is true? Prove it too me from the Bible alone.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
What comes first regarding this whole issue is "Who is Jesus Christ." When you know who Jesus is then Trinitarianism is true because the Holy Spirit confirms that He is God as well as the Holy Spirit is God and of course God the Father is God. Furthermore, the Bible itself identifies the Son being God, the Holy Spirit being God and the Father is God in numerous places and in various ways.
What mac has said is the following: "There is absolutely no importance in my mind of the concept of Individual Diety over Trinitarian Diety." He also said the Trinity teaching causes division, that I can agree with to a certain extent but that does not preclude the Trinity from being a false teaching or not true. The division is caused by a lack of understanding the Bible.
Here, I'll give you a working definition of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity is not an "assumption." It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is BASED on the fact that the Bible is EXPLICIT in telling us ther there is, was and forever will be only ONE God AND the fact that the Bible IDENTIFIES three and only three persons as God. So, is this staement true or false? If it's false, please tell me why or how is it false? If it's true please tell me why or how it is true? Prove it too me from the Bible alone.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Ok mac, goodnight but here is your error in a nutshell when you said, "I deny making a belief in the individual deity( i.e. Yahshua as seperate being than YHWH yet still a God - Literally His son.) over His being a part of a three in one entity." If you read this now please think about your statement in your dreams. If tommorow do the same while your awake. Happy landings.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
E
For your information you misunderstand me, I am not saying or even intimating anything about the Athanisian Creed, Arianism or the purpose of the Council Nicea at 325AD. I'm telling you that the doctrine of the Trinity is easily proveable by the Bible alone and it is a matter of great importance because it has salvic ramifications especially if you deny the deity of Jesus Christ.
And for your information this discussion has nothing to do with "how I feel." It has to do with understanding the Bible and when inovators like you come along speaking of things you know nothing about despite having two doctrates by saying the trinity teaching is "divisive" then I will always speak out. Btw, my trick knee tells me you probably belong to a liberal church, am I right?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
And for your information this discussion has nothing to do with "how I feel." It has to do with understanding the Bible and when inovators like you come along speaking of things you know nothing about despite having two doctrates by saying the trinity teaching is "divisive" then I will always speak out. Btw, my trick knee tells me you probably belong to a liberal church, am I right?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Let me ask you evan, have you been approached by the mormon missionary's or the jw's for that matter? I know the mormons will not ask you about the trinity but the Jw's when you are discussing religion with them automatically assume one to be a trinitarian. In fact, since you said you believe in the Trinity how would you explain it to a mormon or Jw or anybody for that matter?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
E
Matthew 3:16,17 mormons say clearly shows all three separate at the baptism of Jesus. JW say that John 14:28 in which Jesus says "my Father is greater than I," shows that the Father and Jesus are separate. I even have a buddy who claims to be a baptist who quotes mark 15:34 were Jesus says "my God my God why hast thou forsaken me?" He asks if They are the same person how could He say this? In John 14:26 and 15:26 all three seem seperate. As for 1 John 5:7 which says they are one what about John 17:22 where Jesus prays that we (believers) might be one even as Him and the Father are one. In fact Paul and the other authers of the new testament usually reference the Father and Jesus seperate 1 Cor 1:1,9 1 Peter 1:2,3 James 1:1 1 John 1:2,3
Well that's a little of the "proof" they provide. If may post my evidence to prove the Trinity is actually true if someone else doesn't beat me to it. I probably won't get to it till tomorrow though as it is late and I'm tired.
Well that's a little of the "proof" they provide. If may post my evidence to prove the Trinity is actually true if someone else doesn't beat me to it. I probably won't get to it till tomorrow though as it is late and I'm tired.
It is nice, and kind to tell people the truth and warn them of danger, including false prophets and false doctrines. God Himself says "They worship Me in vain, their doctrine is merely human rules" Following false doctrines will not result in salvation, Jesus calls it "the blind leading the blind" and says both will fall into a pit (hell). Therefore an attempt to biblically show someone that they are being led by false doctrine, is an attempt to save their eternal life from hell- what could possibly be more kind than that?
It is a fact that if you have at least two different doctrines, at least one of them is wrong! And how many doctrines are there in the world? Contrary to popular belief, you cannot choose from the buffet of religions one that's to your liking, and have God be pleased about it just because you believe God exists. What you practice must match the church that Christ purchased with His blood. He did not die for all the man-made religions in the phone book. The Bible says there is one Lord, one FAITH (belief), and one baptism. One name given under heaven by which man must be saved. And Jesus says not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter, but ONLY those who do the Will of His Father. And His Will is to give all authority in heaven and on earth to Jesus Christ, and for us to obey Him.
The Bible says some will abandon THEE Faith and follow decieving spirits. These people did not abandon belief in God, they abandoned belief in the doctrine of the genuine New Testament church- Christ's church. It's not Luther's church, it's not John the Baptist's church, it's not Saint So-and-So's church, not the Catholic Church, not Mormon's church, it's Christ's church.
Faith is active, never passive. Faith causes us to respond, otherwise it's a dead faith- which the Bible says is no faith at all. We need to respond by obeying God instead of men. If I never even heard of the pope, it would have no effect on my salvation whatsoever. Where in the Bible does it say to kiss his ring? Where in the Bible does it say to pray to or through Mary? Where does it say to forbid people from certain foods (lent) or not to marry (priests)? These rules are made up by men, not by scripture. The Bible says scripture contains EVERYTHING we need, so why follow other doctrines?
It is a fact that if you have at least two different doctrines, at least one of them is wrong! And how many doctrines are there in the world? Contrary to popular belief, you cannot choose from the buffet of religions one that's to your liking, and have God be pleased about it just because you believe God exists. What you practice must match the church that Christ purchased with His blood. He did not die for all the man-made religions in the phone book. The Bible says there is one Lord, one FAITH (belief), and one baptism. One name given under heaven by which man must be saved. And Jesus says not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter, but ONLY those who do the Will of His Father. And His Will is to give all authority in heaven and on earth to Jesus Christ, and for us to obey Him.
The Bible says some will abandon THEE Faith and follow decieving spirits. These people did not abandon belief in God, they abandoned belief in the doctrine of the genuine New Testament church- Christ's church. It's not Luther's church, it's not John the Baptist's church, it's not Saint So-and-So's church, not the Catholic Church, not Mormon's church, it's Christ's church.
Faith is active, never passive. Faith causes us to respond, otherwise it's a dead faith- which the Bible says is no faith at all. We need to respond by obeying God instead of men. If I never even heard of the pope, it would have no effect on my salvation whatsoever. Where in the Bible does it say to kiss his ring? Where in the Bible does it say to pray to or through Mary? Where does it say to forbid people from certain foods (lent) or not to marry (priests)? These rules are made up by men, not by scripture. The Bible says scripture contains EVERYTHING we need, so why follow other doctrines?
Actually evan your examples fall short and miss the mark. Do not fret, please read the following which I wrote to poster test last night. I will later on expand even further on how I arrived at my conclusions.
Ok fair enough test. I said that I do not believe trinitarianism is a REQUIREMENT for salvation. It is the RESULT of salvation. Why? Because you cannot know Jesus Christ and somehow miss the fact that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presense of the Holy Spirit of God and somehow miss that He is God. I then gave mac Romans 8:9-11 to read.
What comes first regarding this whole issue is "Who is Jesus Christ." When you know who Jesus is then Trinitarianism is true because the Holy Spirit confirms that He is God as well as the Holy Spirit is God and of course God the Father is God. Furthermore, the Bible itself identifies the Son being God, the Holy Spirit being God and the Father is God in numerous places and in various ways.
What mac has said is the following: "There is absolutely no importance in my mind of the concept of Individual Diety over Trinitarian Diety." He also said the Trinity teaching causes division, that I can agree with to a certain extent but that does not preclude the Trinity from being a false teaching or not true. The division is caused by a lack of understanding the Bible.
Here, I'll give you a working definition of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity is not an "assumption." It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is BASED on the fact that the Bible is EXPLICIT in telling us ther there is, was and forever will be only ONE God AND the fact that the Bible IDENTIFIES three and only three persons as God. So, is this staement true or false? If it's false, please tell me why or how is it false? If it's true please tell me why or how it is true? Prove it too me from the Bible alone.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Ok fair enough test. I said that I do not believe trinitarianism is a REQUIREMENT for salvation. It is the RESULT of salvation. Why? Because you cannot know Jesus Christ and somehow miss the fact that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presense of the Holy Spirit of God and somehow miss that He is God. I then gave mac Romans 8:9-11 to read.
What comes first regarding this whole issue is "Who is Jesus Christ." When you know who Jesus is then Trinitarianism is true because the Holy Spirit confirms that He is God as well as the Holy Spirit is God and of course God the Father is God. Furthermore, the Bible itself identifies the Son being God, the Holy Spirit being God and the Father is God in numerous places and in various ways.
What mac has said is the following: "There is absolutely no importance in my mind of the concept of Individual Diety over Trinitarian Diety." He also said the Trinity teaching causes division, that I can agree with to a certain extent but that does not preclude the Trinity from being a false teaching or not true. The division is caused by a lack of understanding the Bible.
Here, I'll give you a working definition of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity is not an "assumption." It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is BASED on the fact that the Bible is EXPLICIT in telling us ther there is, was and forever will be only ONE God AND the fact that the Bible IDENTIFIES three and only three persons as God. So, is this staement true or false? If it's false, please tell me why or how is it false? If it's true please tell me why or how it is true? Prove it too me from the Bible alone.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
D
My Nave's Topical is in paper form. I used to have one in computer app form, but lost it. (I think upgrading computers once too often. lol) So, the link is to Nave's Topical on Internet form. It lists 50 some verses (at least it did lists that many, didn't really count the online list), in the Bible that make it clear God is not merely une (one). He's triune.
If I still had my app, I could copy/paste the verse for you. (And would.) BUT the Internet site has hyperlinks to each verse listed, and I'm far too lazy to clickety-click them all to copy/paste on here. BUT I am hoping my honesty has you go clickety-click them now, instead of simply clicking a link because someone tells you to. lol
If I still had my app, I could copy/paste the verse for you. (And would.) BUT the Internet site has hyperlinks to each verse listed, and I'm far too lazy to clickety-click them all to copy/paste on here. BUT I am hoping my honesty has you go clickety-click them now, instead of simply clicking a link because someone tells you to. lol