Kenneth Hagin and the prosperity gospel

[PeterJens]

Imagine a heavenly job

An angel is given the job of looking at all our posts and seeing what and how
we meant it. If you ever have been involved in a court case for one individual
is this actually practical? I am sure there will be some quick compromise situation.

Imagine some of the complexity. I meant to say this, I said that, it meant this to
someone else, but I did not understand that, and so I replied like this and boom.

It is obvious that some have no concerns in this regard, because they are not even
thinking of accountability or can this be justified. But they should because words do
affect others and ideas matter.

It is why the word of God gives us life. Devalue words, and you loose the whole faith,
even the whole of creation. It is why Ananias and Sapharia died, only a small lie, an
impression for others to think more highly of them than they ought. Words and truth
are life and death issues.

 

[popeye]

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the game changer.

That blows those realms of human error and rabbit trails out of your being and gets you into God's business.

He is in the power business,and using that power to change men,nations,and captives of the devil.

Get out of the attacker of the body ministry,seek the baptism of fire and power,and get into kingdom building,insted of the destroyer mess.

That thing is a beast that you ride. It will die on you in a desert place and leave you there.

 

[Johnny_B]

but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

 

[joaniemarie]

I treasure that God has taught me it's not about me, but Him.

If we focus on God, we see the world in a different light

However if we focus on self and making sure everyone knows how right we are, we hide our light under the bushel of our own self confidence and self righteousness.

On the other side of this., there is a confidence a true believer has and it can sometimes look like pride or boasting. Like when a Christian who believes we are the church and we will not be judged with the world.... there are some who will say that is boasting. When it is just stating the truth about God's care and provision for the church (each one of us makes up the church)

There is a need to receive each day from Jesus all the things we need to live. I also think we have to learn "how" to ask and how to receive from Him. We are self aware beings. We relate to everything based on being self aware. That is how we relate to things outside of us. Seeing, hearing smelling, feeling., breathing. There is a difference between being self aware and being selfish.

Knowing the truth of what we are and what we believe properly comes from learning about Jesus. An important truth is our confidence has to be in Him and not in ourselves. That we can count on His love for us at all times. That we put no confidence in our abilities (flesh) and instead put all our confidence in Him. So we can do those things in life that we need to do in order to live one day to the next. And that encompasses all parts of our being. We can't meet our own needs for our body, soul or spirit. We need Jesus in all those areas.

Many Christians think this expectation of God's blessings and provisions is selfish. If it means providing for our temporal needs they think it is selfish and worldly. I don't get that at all.

We are all 3 body soul and spirit. Each part of us plays a role. If one part is a mess it will effect the other parts. The Bible even uses the human body as a picture of the church.

So learning to receive daily from Him in all areas of our lives is wise. Many Christians are messed up in this. They are looking at the taking from His great generosity is selfish if it is not only in the "spiritual" realm. God doesn't put any limitations on us taking from Him all that He offers us in Christ. He knows we have needs in all 3 parts of who we are. Learning that our dependence for all we are and have has to be on Jesus. And after we find out this truth., it will actually opens the flood gates of blessings into our lives.

The Bible says "freely you have received freely you give"
Matt.10:8
[SUP]Rom.8:32 [/SUP]He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?
1 cor.2:12 [SUP]12 [/SUP]But we received, not the spirit of the [SUP][a][/SUP]world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.

1 Tim.6:17 [SUP]17 [/SUP]Charge them that are rich in this present [SUP][a][/SUP]world, that they be not highminded, nor have their hope set on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;



I've only posted a few verses about freely in regards to taking and giving from the Lord. The Bible also tells us to taste and see that the Lord is good. He invites us to go to Him for all the desires of our hearts. A woman for instance likes pretty things. Does God allow us to freely enjoy pretty things? I believe He does. Some who are very stern religiously believing God is stern will only wear black and white or dull colors. Thinking God is pleased with their being "like God". But is God really like that???

When I look around at life., I see the world is full of the beauty of God's creation in nature and the colors are all different and beautiful. The ocean is so beautiful it takes our breath away.

When we see other believers enjoying God's blessings do we get jealous? Do we judge them for having too much? I've seen many do. I have a theory on that.... Some Christians have freely been given blessings from the hand of God and have freely given to others. God keeps blessing them a whole lot. These are not perfect Christians. They are flawed Christians but they are dependent on Christ Christians.


Then there are other Christians that believe "oh God can't give earthly blessings because He knows I'll go off and be selfish"

Those Christians actually limit God's ability to change them so they can learn how to be a good steward of His blessings.

These Christians will stay in the same place all their lives in the area they decided is too hard for God to change in them. Not only for temporal blessings but also for the blessings of growing in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior. They never know the joy of tasting and seeing the Lord is good and gracious and plenteous in giving blessings to His children.

When our focus is on Jesus we learn not to worry about life. We know He will be our Provider for everything. This gives Him glory and honor. I think many Christians when they think they are being unselfish by not asking God for their needs and their wants, they are actually stopping God from blessing them in amazing ways above and beyond all they could have asked and thought. I was never abundantly blessed until I believed and trusted He would.





It is all about Him but He wants us to share in His blessings. If we as parents know how to give good gifts, how much more our heavenly Father?

 

[Ariel82]

Wow popeye, you just condemned everyone in this thread, do you include yourself?

"There is no way any of you have a secret place,or intimacy with Jesus."

 

[Ariel82]

Joaniemarie, I don't need to be reminded to ask God for things. That comes naturally in the give me, give me world.

What we need is to learn to thank God for the things he has ALREADY given us.

 

[Ariel82]

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the game changer.

That blows those realms of human error and rabbit trails out of your being and gets you into God's business.

He is in the power business,and using that power to change men,nations,and captives of the devil.

Get out of the attacker of the body ministry,seek the baptism of fire and power,and get into kingdom building,insted of the destroyer mess.

That thing is a beast that you ride. It will die on you in a desert place and leave you there.

You are gonna have to tell me who you think "you" is one of these days,,,

 

[Ariel82]

Anytime there is revival or a mighty move of God,the attackers come. Believers attacking other believers .

R A Torry vehemently tore into the Asuza St revival. He was wrong. He wrote a Book on the Holy Spirit.

Go figure.

Men are fickle. They follow other men. They are easily moved to turn from the path. I see it over and over. I sit only under the very best. Oswald Chambers,TL Osborne,Smith Wigglesworth,Watchman Nee,RWSchambach,Chuck Missler,etc.

But,I check EVERYTHING against the word,and never,ever follow them,but get nuggets from them all.

I read the word,and get with Jesus and the Holy Spirit every single day. When I share and teach their jaws drop open,not because of me,but what gushes from my belly.

I am guaranteed the real deal,because I petition the throne RELENTLESSLY for what is mine,and that is his mighty mantle for a word and power for all those that depend on me as a minister and man of God.

Mmm I could comment but I am gonna go teach kids how to be dectives for the Science Olympiad super slueth event instead

 

[Ariel82]

In I Peter, the false teachers aren't genuine teachers of God's word. They are adulterous, money-motivated men on their way to damnation and leading others in the same direction.

I was trying to make the point if we used the true,meaning of the word and raised it to God's standards, we would all be guilty at one point of our lives because we all believe and taught doctrines that we learned later were false.

For me false teacher is a label that can be applied to many.

However wolves in sheep a clothing,,,,that is more specific because it talks of the heart and not just what we mentally believe, it talks of evil motives.

 

[joaniemarie]

Joaniemarie, I don't need to be reminded to ask God for things. That comes naturally in the give me, give me world.

What we need is to learn to thank God for the things he has ALREADY given us.

l didn't say you needed to be reminded of anything Arial. Just sharing some thoughts about what I've been learning myself about expectations. I never used to have any major expectations of Jesus., and now I have come to learn some great expectations of Jesus. (that didn't come naturally to me)

 

[Ariel82]

Oops, that's II Peter, chapter 2.

It is mainly focused on false prophets which are different from false teachers. Like the difference between the office of prophet and teacher.

False prophets are wolves.

 

[Ariel82]

l didn't say you needed to be reminded of anything Arial. Just sharing some thoughts about what I've been learning myself about expectations of Jesus.

I know and appreciate that. You sound like you need reminders of God's love. As if someone has hurt you and tried to starve you of it with lies that to receive his blessings would be like stealing.

I understand that,but personally I am a spoiled brat and need to learn to be more thankful and less demanding,

 

[joaniemarie]

I know and appreciate that. You sound like you need reminders of God's love. As if someone has hurt you and tried to starve you of it with lies that to receive his blessings would be like stealing.

I understand that,but personally I am a spoiled brat and need to learn to be more thankful and less demanding,

Personally I think I'm more like most people "average bear" sort of speak. Most people have a hard time believing God loves them the way they are. Most people keep trying to be acceptable to God and work hard to be better. They do good for a while., then later have a train wreck in our lives. Then live to tell about it and how Jesus delivered them from themselves.

 

[Johnny_B]

Anytime there is revival or a mighty move of God,the attackers come. Believers attacking other believers .

R A Torry vehemently tore into the Asuza St revival. He was wrong. He wrote a Book on the Holy Spirit.

Go figure.

Men are fickle. They follow other men. They are easily moved to turn from the path. I see it over and over. I sit only under the very best. Oswald Chambers,TL Osborne,Smith Wigglesworth,Watchman Nee,RWSchambach,Chuck Missler,etc.

But,I check EVERYTHING against the word,and never,ever follow them,but get nuggets from them all.

I read the word,and get with Jesus and the Holy Spirit every single day. When I share and teach their jaws drop open,not because of me,but what gushes from my belly.

I am guaranteed the real deal,because I petition the throne RELENTLESSLY for what is mine,and that is his mighty mantle for a word and power for all those that depend on me as a minister and man of God.

You forgot the father of the blab it and grab it movement, the eastern mystical positive thinking and speaking guru himself E. W. Kenyon, he the one that wrote the books that inspired Osborn, Capps, Hagin, John G. Lake, F. F. Bosworth, Don Basham, Billheimer, A. A. Allen Miracle Valley was a travesty alone with all the, I got special revelation from the Lord or God spoke to me and said, give me money.

Here a faith check for all blab it and grab it believe and the sowing of seed. Why do the preacher always ask you for your seed money, if they have such great faith they should be sending money to all their views or parishioners, if what they teach is from God. They couldn't give their money away fast enough before God would return it a hundred fold. But you got to love the way E. W. Kenyon twisted the words of Jesus and Capps expanded on it. Jesus said, "The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." They took that and said that our words are spirit so whatever you speak you give it life, negative a negative spirit, positive a positive spirit. But they never quote the first part which if the people that listen to them would just read the verse, it says "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all." The flesh is of no help, yet they say their flesh tongue can create life, what a twist of the Scripture.

 

[preacher4truth]

Are you saying all prosperity gospel followers are not saved?

...and you're suggesting that perhaps all are not. But I've had a bit of time to think through your post. Thanks for using the word "if" at this point instead of going ballistic and accusatory. There is hope.

It is ironic if this is your position, because I know many believers in prosperity type churches
who know the Lord but are miss-guided.

You don't know if they know the LORD or not and that's a fact. They are listening to a false Gospel, with a false Christ who gives them any material thing they want through covetousness which is idolatry. So, the message is idolatry, and those at its altar are then idolaters. The world hates Christ, but the world would love that Christ. No wonder multitudes flock to that nonsense. Do the Scriptures teach that the covetous inherit eternal life? That is an important question.

John 15:18. Ephesians 5:5.

 

[PeterJens]

...and you're suggesting that perhaps all are not. But I've had a bit of time to think through your post. Thanks for using the word "if" at this point instead of going ballistic and accusatory. There is hope.



You don't know if they know the LORD or not and that's a fact. They are listening to a false Gospel, with a false Christ who gives them any material thing they want through covetousness which is idolatry. So, the message is idolatry, and those at its altar are then idolaters. The world hates Christ, but the world would love that Christ. No wonder multitudes flock to that nonsense. Do the Scriptures teach that the covetous inherit eternal life? That is an important question.

John 15:18. Ephesians 5:5.

Let us take your point forward. I am called to love and have fellowship with people
who believe in Christ for their salvation. Now I am not judgemental and there are
many who have come out of such fellowships, who now feel they were betrayed yet
were believers. I look at these things as what we can share and testify to.
We have fellowship with all who follow Jesus, and open the door to a deeper walk
with Jesus is love and openness.

Now if you think calling people names helps, it just ends up with upset people and
no focus on the issues that matter.

 

[Stephen63]

Anytime there is revival or a mighty move of God,the attackers come. Believers attacking other believers .

R A Torry vehemently tore into the Asuza St revival. He was wrong. He wrote a Book on the Holy Spirit.

Go figure.

Men are fickle. They follow other men. They are easily moved to turn from the path. I see it over and over. I sit only under the very best. Oswald Chambers,TL Osborne,Smith Wigglesworth,Watchman Nee,RWSchambach,Chuck Missler,etc.

"I" could take half of your "best" & shred them to pieces, but I'm gonna give you some slack.

But,I check EVERYTHING against the word,and never,ever follow them,but get nuggets from them all.

I read the word,and get with Jesus and the Holy Spirit every single day. When I share and teach their jaws drop open,not because of me,but what gushes from my belly.

I am guaranteed the real deal,because I petition the throne RELENTLESSLY for what is mine,and that is his mighty mantle for a word and power for all those that depend on me as a minister and man of God.

As for the rest of this, the I's have it..... and whatever it is, "I" don't think I want it.

 

[Johnny_B]

I just notice something all the guys that popeye says he sits up are died but one and his teaching is very questionable with his focus on the niphilim and how they are UFO aliens and will be coming back in the last time, of course they're going to have sex with our women.

The Azusa st rebebel produces more bad that good, we got the oneness groups from there, in one of their camps. With some guy waking up and running around the camp saying God gave him a revelation that Acts 2:38 was a revelation that Jesus was the Father, Son and Spirit, that the Holy Ghost showed Peter that and that salvation is by baptism for the remission of sins, in Jesus name. Some of the Four Square and AoG pastors followed that young man, they were not very skilled in the Scripture so they were cared about by a wind of doctrine. The WoF came out of their as well, when they discovered E W Kenyon and his twisting of the Scripture. Hagen wrote in his book on healing which one I don't remember that's why I wish I would kept all of those books by E W Kenyon, T L Osborn, Wigglesworth, Bosworth, Branaham, Basham, Capps, Hinn, the latter rain guys, third wave of the Spirit books too. That way I could quote their heresies chapter and verse.

Now there were some good teachers that were part of the Azusa st thing. Like Duffy, Van Cleave, Gee, Perlman, Minzie, Horton, Womack, Rodman. Duffy and Van Cleave wrote Foundations of Pentecostal Theology, Gee and Horton both wrote books on the Gifts of the Spirit, Perlman and Minzie both wrote books on doctrine, Womack book on Church growth and Rodman wrote Renewal Theology. There were some other Baptists and Reformed pastors and people, that were part of the Azusa st thing, but not as many of them got weird. There's one other thing that i could never and this day do not understand is Pentecostal fascination with the Dake's annotated Bible is, the very first comment of the New Testament is that Jesus became the Christ at His baptism. Can not remember if He had a Christ awareness or He just became the Christ at His baptism, which is straight heresy. Jesus was a man that earned Christhood or became divine.

It's funny how popeye says how people follow men, and in the same breath tells us how he sits under the very best, he really has a high view of himself. Here's what gets me is those guys are preaching the something they were preaching 35 years ago or longer. There's a pastor I know and I have an uncle and Aunt that go to this guys Church which is word of faith, I happened to see him on one of the public channels here in town. He was preaching the same message He preached to us over 35 years ago, the words were different, but the message and the verses were the same. But then again my uncle is no bible student.

I wonder if popeye has a Dake's annotated bible? It is the WoF, Pentecostal and other groups that they think they have a corner on the Holy Spirit as Ghost. It's all about self promotion, their faith is so great that they released God to do something. The one that literally gets my mad is when they are praying and say, lord I command you to do whatever. It's an oxymoron, they call him lord then command his like he's their pet toy poodle. That shows what their teaching and mind set is, they are god over the lord, because no one can be over our LORD, the Father even calls Jesus God and Lord Hebrews 1:8-9 Lord 10-12 Lord with the attributes of the Lord. Show that to the next JW, mormon, muslim that tell you that the Father is greater that Jesus.

 

[Rockrz]

Originally Posted by popeye

Well, they call him popeye cause... he keeps popping people in the eye!

 

[Rockrz]

They are listening to a false Gospel, with a false Christ who gives them any material thing they want through covetousness which is idolatry

Wise man once saith... he that painteth with a wide brush is lunatic

Wise man also once saith...crowded elevator smell different to midget