King James Bible vs. Modern Translations (Honoring The Deity of Jesus Christ)
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A
I didn't say it was God the Father. I said it was God. Since God is triune, the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit can be referred to here. The context of Deuteronomy is simply God. So I am sticking to what I said -- God is the Rock in Deuteronomy 32. Could that mean Jesus? Again, yes. But we can justify that it is just Jesus being referred to here.
My goodness, don't you know that Christ is the Rock... and you're telling me that I'm misinterpreting scripture lol. Sorry, I just think that's funny.
The "Rock" is a title of Jesus.
1Co_10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Ok, if you're not convinced, how did the Rock of Israel (Jesus), speak to the God of Israel (God the Father)?
2Sa_23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
Do you believe the Rock was Jesus? I can't go any further until you can see that Jesus is the Rock.
The "Rock" is a title of Jesus.
1Co_10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Ok, if you're not convinced, how did the Rock of Israel (Jesus), speak to the God of Israel (God the Father)?
2Sa_23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
Do you believe the Rock was Jesus? I can't go any further until you can see that Jesus is the Rock.
A
Oops. I meant "Could that mean Jesus? Again, yes. But we cannot justify that it is just Jesus being referred to here.
Deuteronomy 32 (NASB) (I'm only quoting the parts that refer to the Rock, please look it up in your own Bible so that you can see the full context)
Here is why I say that:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“For I proclaim the name of the Lord;
Ascribe greatness to our God!
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“The Rock! His work is perfect,
For all His ways are [SUP][a][/SUP]just;
A God of faithfulness and without injustice,
Righteous and upright is He.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“But [SUP][d][/SUP]Jeshurun grew fat and kicked—
You are grown fat, thick, and sleek—
Then he forsook God who made him,
And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“They made Him jealous with strange gods;
With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“They sacrificed to demons who were not God,
To gods whom they have not known,
New gods who came lately,
Whom your fathers did not dread.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“You neglected the Rock who begot you,And forgot the God who gave you birth.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]‘I will heap misfortunes on them;
I will use My arrows on them.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]‘They will be wasted by famine, and consumed by [SUP][g][/SUP]plague
And bitter destruction;
And the teeth of beasts I will send upon them,
With the venom of crawling things of the dust.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]‘Outside the sword will bereave,
And inside terror—
Both young man and virgin,
The nursling with the man of gray hair.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]‘I would have said, “I will cut them to pieces,
I will remove the memory of them from men,”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Had I not feared the provocation by the enemy,
That their adversaries would misjudge,
That they would say, “Our hand is [SUP][h][/SUP]triumphant,
And the Lord has not done all this.”’
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“For they are a nation [SUP][i][/SUP]lacking in counsel,
And there is no understanding in them.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Would that they were wise, that they understood this,
That they would discern their [SUP][j][/SUP]future!
[SUP]30 [/SUP]“How could one chase a thousand,
And two put ten thousand to flight,
Unless their Rock had sold them,
And the Lord had given them up?
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“Indeed their rock is not like our Rock,
Even our enemies [SUP][k][/SUP]themselves judge this.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]“For their vine is from the vine of Sodom,
And from the fields of Gomorrah;
Their grapes are grapes of poison,
Their clusters, bitter.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]“Their wine is the venom of [SUP][l][/SUP]serpents,
And the [SUP][m][/SUP]deadly poison of cobras.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]‘Is it not laid up in store with Me,
Sealed up in My treasuries?
[SUP]35 [/SUP]‘Vengeance is Mine, and retribution,
In due time their foot will slip;
For the day of their calamity is near,
And the impending things are hastening upon them.’
[SUP]36 [/SUP]“For the Lord will vindicate His people,
And will have compassion on His servants,
When He sees that their [SUP][n][/SUP]strength is gone,
And there is none remaining, bond or free.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]“And He will say, ‘Where are their gods,
The rock in which they sought refuge?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]‘Who ate the fat of their sacrifices,
And drank the wine of their drink offering?
Let them rise up and help you,
Let them be your hiding place!
[SUP]39 [/SUP]‘See now that I, I am He,
And there is no god besides Me;
It is I who put to death and give life.
I have wounded and it is I who heal,
And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]‘Indeed, I lift up My hand to heaven,
And say, as I live forever,
[SUP]41 [/SUP]If I sharpen My [SUP][o][/SUP]flashing sword,
And it goes on like this....
Who is speaking? The triune God (which, yes, includes the preincarnate Jesus). But we cannot say that it is only the pre-incarnate Jesus who is speaking.
Deuteronomy 32 (NASB) (I'm only quoting the parts that refer to the Rock, please look it up in your own Bible so that you can see the full context)
Here is why I say that:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“For I proclaim the name of the Lord;
Ascribe greatness to our God!
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“The Rock! His work is perfect,
For all His ways are [SUP][a][/SUP]just;
A God of faithfulness and without injustice,
Righteous and upright is He.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“But [SUP][d][/SUP]Jeshurun grew fat and kicked—
You are grown fat, thick, and sleek—
Then he forsook God who made him,
And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“They made Him jealous with strange gods;
With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“They sacrificed to demons who were not God,
To gods whom they have not known,
New gods who came lately,
Whom your fathers did not dread.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“You neglected the Rock who begot you,And forgot the God who gave you birth.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]‘I will heap misfortunes on them;
I will use My arrows on them.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]‘They will be wasted by famine, and consumed by [SUP][g][/SUP]plague
And bitter destruction;
And the teeth of beasts I will send upon them,
With the venom of crawling things of the dust.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]‘Outside the sword will bereave,
And inside terror—
Both young man and virgin,
The nursling with the man of gray hair.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]‘I would have said, “I will cut them to pieces,
I will remove the memory of them from men,”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Had I not feared the provocation by the enemy,
That their adversaries would misjudge,
That they would say, “Our hand is [SUP][h][/SUP]triumphant,
And the Lord has not done all this.”’
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“For they are a nation [SUP][i][/SUP]lacking in counsel,
And there is no understanding in them.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Would that they were wise, that they understood this,
That they would discern their [SUP][j][/SUP]future!
[SUP]30 [/SUP]“How could one chase a thousand,
And two put ten thousand to flight,
Unless their Rock had sold them,
And the Lord had given them up?
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“Indeed their rock is not like our Rock,
Even our enemies [SUP][k][/SUP]themselves judge this.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]“For their vine is from the vine of Sodom,
And from the fields of Gomorrah;
Their grapes are grapes of poison,
Their clusters, bitter.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]“Their wine is the venom of [SUP][l][/SUP]serpents,
And the [SUP][m][/SUP]deadly poison of cobras.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]‘Is it not laid up in store with Me,
Sealed up in My treasuries?
[SUP]35 [/SUP]‘Vengeance is Mine, and retribution,
In due time their foot will slip;
For the day of their calamity is near,
And the impending things are hastening upon them.’
[SUP]36 [/SUP]“For the Lord will vindicate His people,
And will have compassion on His servants,
When He sees that their [SUP][n][/SUP]strength is gone,
And there is none remaining, bond or free.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]“And He will say, ‘Where are their gods,
The rock in which they sought refuge?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]‘Who ate the fat of their sacrifices,
And drank the wine of their drink offering?
Let them rise up and help you,
Let them be your hiding place!
[SUP]39 [/SUP]‘See now that I, I am He,
And there is no god besides Me;
It is I who put to death and give life.
I have wounded and it is I who heal,
And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]‘Indeed, I lift up My hand to heaven,
And say, as I live forever,
[SUP]41 [/SUP]If I sharpen My [SUP][o][/SUP]flashing sword,
And it goes on like this....
Who is speaking? The triune God (which, yes, includes the preincarnate Jesus). But we cannot say that it is only the pre-incarnate Jesus who is speaking.
Well if you ever "got heated" over a discussion, I am sure you have lost some grace also with the brethren. I am sure you Alexandrians who don't believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of ANY Bible, get angry quite often when we Bible believers rebuke and correct the faulty logic of your "originals only" theory.
...Typical Sholarship Onlyism...
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A
If...and I say...IF...the KJV is the only accurate translation....this begs the following question. Many people die in other countries for have the Bible in their possession. For instance...let's say that a Chinese Christian or missionary has managed to hand out a copy of the scriptures...only afterwards to be caught and arrested. Now, was this a waste of his or her time and effort...because it was NOT an English KJV Bible? Are the people who received it...came to a saving faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior...and are now spreading the word in spite of the personal dangers to themselves...and others...Are these people NOT going to be included in the family of God...because we are arrogant enough to argue over a different translation? If that is the case...then only white Anglo-Saxon people will get to heaven....provided they used the KJV of the Bible...that not a single writer of either the Old or New testament have ever seen?
If it makes a difference...I don't believe that Jesus or Paul spoke using all the THEES,THOUS, etc.
If it makes a difference...I don't believe that Jesus or Paul spoke using all the THEES,THOUS, etc.
A
I didn't say that Jesus was never referred to as the Rock. What I am trying to show you here is that all of YHWH (God) is referred to as the Rock. It isn't just Jesus.
It isn't the case that whenever we see the term "Rock" it always means Jesus. It can mean Jesus, yes.
In 1 Corinthians 10:4, yes, Rock means Jesus in that verse. This doesn't prove that every time the word "Rock," appears as a name/title that it is always referring to just Jesus.
It isn't the case that whenever we see the term "Rock" it always means Jesus. It can mean Jesus, yes.
In 1 Corinthians 10:4, yes, Rock means Jesus in that verse. This doesn't prove that every time the word "Rock," appears as a name/title that it is always referring to just Jesus.
Ok, Arwen I disagree, but that's ok because you do agree it could be Jesus. And I do think your heart is right and you are truly seeking truth. So let's go further.
Their Rock is not the true Rock. If the Rock represents God or Jesus, then what does the vine represent?
Deu 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
Their Rock is not the true Rock. If the Rock represents God or Jesus, then what does the vine represent?
Deu 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
C
I love a lot versions of th Bible! I mixed them together to make one verse from the many verses. Also together they can give bettr understanding to scriptures and differ points of view 
I think th issues with translations has to do with doctrinal beliefs for many. Which is usually Trinitarian, Non-Trinitarian beliefs; so I guess in that case it would mattr a lot to some. Or lik th Homosexual Bible that came out I think last yr? Which I wouldn't even get near, because I think every (well I guess not every), but most Christian except as unbiblical doctrinal belief...
I think th issues with translations has to do with doctrinal beliefs for many. Which is usually Trinitarian, Non-Trinitarian beliefs; so I guess in that case it would mattr a lot to some. Or lik th Homosexual Bible that came out I think last yr? Which I wouldn't even get near, because I think every (well I guess not every), but most Christian except as unbiblical doctrinal belief...
You're heated I see. I'm not an Alexandrian in spite of your name calling.
I read from Scrivener's Textus Receptus and the KJV and the 1545 Luther Bibel, but a I'm real Christian in the tradition of the Apostle Paul, not a KJV-only cultist.
ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 14:18 ευχαριστω τω θεω μου παντων υμων μαλλον γλωσσαις λαλων
1 Cor 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1 Cor 14:18 Jch dancke meinem Gott das ich mehr mit Zungen rede denn jr alle.
I read from Scrivener's Textus Receptus and the KJV and the 1545 Luther Bibel, but a I'm real Christian in the tradition of the Apostle Paul, not a KJV-only cultist.
ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 14:18 ευχαριστω τω θεω μου παντων υμων μαλλον γλωσσαις λαλων
1 Cor 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1 Cor 14:18 Jch dancke meinem Gott das ich mehr mit Zungen rede denn jr alle.
My main is the KJV as well.
The Pure Cambridge Edition (PCE) a free download here -> www.bibleprotector.com
Also the 1611 is available here -> 1611 KING JAMES BIBLE (1611 BIBLE)
I use both of those daily--in fact I just keep the PCE open in a text editor while I'm here on Christian Chat, it makes life easier!
The Pure Cambridge Edition (PCE) a free download here -> www.bibleprotector.com
Also the 1611 is available here -> 1611 KING JAMES BIBLE (1611 BIBLE)
I use both of those daily--in fact I just keep the PCE open in a text editor while I'm here on Christian Chat, it makes life easier!
The children of Israel are a shadow of the New Testament church ( I hope you guys know that anyway), so what is the shadow of the fiery serpents in Numbers 21?
Num 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Num 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
S
Don't you get it? He reads the Antiochian manuscripts, not the Alexandrian ones.
Every single text Praus just said he reads comes from the work Erasmus did on his Greek New Testament - the text the KJV was translated from. He said Scrivener, not Westcott and Hort, and not Nestle-Aland.
Who do you think was actively involved the 1769 KJV? Scrivener!
What version do I use? I use a 1769 Oxford. They removed the masonic woodcuts that were in the original 1611.
In fact I have several 1769 KJV's. It's a beautiful translation, very protestant. I can buy a KJV from a publishing house that doesn't print any thing with counter biblical doctrine. I can quote it, re print it, or plaster my walls with it as wallpaper. Praise God!
But guess what bible I had when I was saved? A 1984 NIV. Horror of horrors. You will still get doctrinally correct statements from an NASB, an ESV, and even an NKJV (although I feel kind of cheated reading an NKJV when I could just read an Oxford). I would have said that about the NIV until the 2011 version too. There are a large number of saved people who read translations other than the KJV, some of which aren't even in English.
And here is the answer sister Arwen:
One Book Stands Alone - Chapter 3
Alright, Now I am going to cite an excerpt from Douglas D. Stauffer's work (One Book Stands Alone) since he answers your question:
Excerpt from Douglas Stauffer's book:
Excerpt from Douglas D. Stauffer's
One Book Stands Alone
Chapter 3 — What’s Right? vs. James White
One Book Stands Alone
Chapter 3 — What’s Right? vs. James White
James White — Further Comments. (white's comments in RED)
The introduction to a book is used to introduce the basic premise of the book to the reader. Here is one statement from the introduction of Mr. White’s book.
"This book is not against the King James Version." 8 - James White (The King James Only Controversy)
James White makes the previous statement in the introduction to his book. However, the facts seem to indicate otherwise. Here is just a sampling of comments gleaned from just two chapters of his book to prove the absurdity of his stated position on the King James Bible. Can one really trust a man that seems to have such a hatred and disdain for the King James Bible, all the while claiming that he is not against it?
"Therefore we see that, in reality, the KJV rendering is inferior to all the modern translations, which more faithfully bring out what Paul is referring to." 9
Here the KJV rendering is better than it was in the previous example, though it is still found to be inferior to the modern versions. 10
…we discover that the modern translations are much more accurate than the rather free, and misleading, translation of the KJV at this point.11
The KJV is the favorite version of a number of groups that promote works-salvation. 12
Yet, this is a case in which the modern translations are more literal, and more correct, than the KJV. 13
…cultic groups such as Jehovah’s Witnesses have made great use of the KJV’s ambiguous rendering of words that have to do with the afterlife…this is one place in which many modern translations far surpass the KJV in accuracy. 14
While the KJV’s translation of these terms is certainly unfortunate… 15 [Emphasis mine]
Any honest person must admit that the modern translations provide a much needed element of clarity and precision that is lacking in the AV. 16
Again we find the modern translations quite honestly surpassing the KJV in clarity and exactitude. 17
The modern translations recognize the context in which this word is found and translate it accordingly, bringing out the meaning that is, quite simply, obscured in the KJV. 18
The great scholars who labored upon the AV would have been the first to admit that their work was liable to correction and revision as the study of biblical languages and the textual history of the Bible advanced. (Better known as the evolution of mankind — see II Timothy 3:1-2, 7.) Surely they would have welcomed the study undertaken by Granville Sharp late in the 1790s. Sharp’s work resulted in a rule of koine Greek that bears his name, a rule that was not fully understood by the KJV translators. Because of his work, we are able to better understand how plain is the testimony to the deity of Christ that is found in such places as Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1. The KJV translators, through no fault of their own, obscured these passages through less than perfect translation. Modern translations correct their error."19 - James White (The King James Only Controversy)
He goes on to justify the changes already discussed in the body of this chapter, but the humorous statement comes on the next page. After he spends a full page justifying why the Granville Sharp rule would have changed the outcome of the wording of the King James Bible in II Peter 1:1, he makes the following statement.
"The little book of 2 Peter contains a total of five ‘Granville Sharp’ constructions. They are 1:1; 1:11; 2:20; 3:2; and 3:18. No one would argue that the other four instances are exceptions to the rule."20 - James White (The King James Only Controversy)
Let me try to rephrase Mr. White’s "insightful" comments. This rule that did not exist when the King James translators did their work is being used to justify changes that are unnecessary and unscriptural. Furthermore, his arguments for the changes in the modern versions are bolstered by a rule that he says applies five times in one book, but four of them are clearly EXCEPTIONS to the rule???!!! Here is a better rule: Any rule that contradicts the plain teaching of scripture is satanically inspired and has no basis in truth. (See Psalm 12:6-7, Matthew 24:35, Hebrews 4:12.)
The purpose of this book is to keep our discussions simple; however, answering the critic sometimes necessitates a more technical rebuttal. Please pardon the technical nature of this short answer to Mr. White’s scriptural infidelity. Mr. White fails to recognize that the statement "God and our Saviour" is a Hebraism called Hendiady (en dia dis). This means "one by means of two." Other such constructions can be found in many scriptures such as I Timothy 1:1, II Timothy 1:2,and Titus 1:4.
Other examples of the Hebraism are found throughout the Old Testament. Here are three.
Zechariah 9:9 …riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass
Isaiah 49:7 …the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One
Isaiah 45:21 …a just God and a Saviour
Each of these examples reveals a clear Hendiady. They are all one by means of two. In addition to the fact that the construction of II Peter 1:1 is correct, the style is plainly the Apostle Peter’s style of writing.
The Apostle Peter’s inspired style of writing is "our Lord Jesus Christ," Jesus our Lord," and "our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (See II Peter 1:1, 1:2, 1:8,1:11, 1:14, 1:16, etc.).
Now consider the passage in Second Peter under attack by Mr. White. Once again, OUR Bible (like OUR Saviour) differentiates between God and our Saviour. Over and over again, the true word places an emphasis upon a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
(KJB) II Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
The importance of a personal relationship with our Saviour Jesus Christ cannot be overemphasized. The KJB correctly makes this distinction; the modern versions fail to do so. In the NIV, the personal relationship is confused because the "our" is moved out of place. Instead of salvation being emphasized, it seems as though more than one God could be recognized — our God and their God.
(NIV) II Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
Anyone can create a rule that supposedly corrects an error, but first you must prove that the error exists and then prove the veracity of the rule in its application to the particular passage. In this case, once again, the critic fails on both counts. He cannot prove the error and fails to establish that this rule applies or even exists. Furthermore, he cannot even justify that the rule is valid.
Men like Mr. White and his cohorts should read the next passages very carefully. Pay particular attention to the fact that there is a distinction concerning our God (versus their God), and that OUR God is THE God of salvation. The verse thus distinguishes between OUR God and the God of the heathen. Their God does not save and He will not save anyone that does not know Him personally.
Psalm 68:20 He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from death.