King James Bible

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John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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KJV In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

NKJV In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

My goodness, the corruption is unbelievable! Call the elders! Summon the media! Kick the dog!

smh...

John146, you really should think before posting. It will save you from looking like a fool.
Truth is truth no matter how small one thinks. I want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. If the very first verse I the Bible is in question, how can I trust verse two? Three? Four? Etc..
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,594
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I want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Good for you. You had better start learning some Greek.

If the very first verse I the Bible is in question, how can I trust verse two? Three? Four? Etc..
It isn't. As I made clear. You have lost the thread and are confusing your conversation with Dirtman regarding the reliability of the NKJV with your conversation on the plurality of "heavens" that you're having with me.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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You may find this information helpful:

There are a few early extant copies of the Bible containing the Gospel of Mark which do NOT include the Long Ending of Mark 16:9-20:
Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus—-300’s.
Syriac Sinaitucus—late 300’s
Codex Bobiensis—c. 300-400’s
Armenian Version Manuscript—411-450
Miniscule 304—1100’s

There are, however, very early evidences for the inclusion of Mark 16:9-20 which precede in time the above Bibles from the 300’s to 1100’s by several hundred years.

Irenaeus (c. 130-202), a very early writer, was a Christian theologian and minister who spent his adult life defending orthodoxy and fighting heresies, writes in Against Heresies 3.10.6:“Also, towards the conclusion of his Gospel Mark says: ‘So then, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sits on the right hand of God’ (Mark 16:19) confirming what had been spoken by the prophet: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on My right hand, until I make Your foes Your footstool.’ (Psalm 110:1) Thus God and the Father are truly one and the same; He who was announced by the prophets, and handed down by the true Gospel; whom we Christians worship and love with the whole heart, as the Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things therein.”

Clearly Irenaeus, living about 200 years before Sinaiticus or Vaticanus were copied, KNEW the Long Ending of Mark and quotes a verse from it.

Justin Martyr (c. 100-165), one of the first and best apologists for the faith, in his First Apology uses words in Mark 16:20 as a fulfillment of Messianic prophecy in his examination of Psalm 110. His pupil Tatian the Syrian (c.120-180), writer and theologian, in his Diatessaron (Harmony of the Gospels) incorporates material from all the four Gospels and includes Mark 16:9-20.

Hippolytus (170-235 A.D.) was a contemporary of Irenaeus. He was bishop of Portus near Rome from 190-227 A.D. In his writings in one of the fragments he quotes Mark 16:17,18 and when speaking of Christ has reference to Verse 19.

Irenaeus, Justin, Tatian and Hippolytus were very early Christian men (100’s) who were born and raised when some who had heard/seen Jesus as youngsters or teens and some of the Seventy Disciples were still alive. It is very persuasive that all four of them, born in the 100’s AD, KNEW AND CITED the Long Ending of Mark, the ending that has been traditionally in the New Testament. The book by Irenaeus quoting Mark 16:19 is OLDER than the earliest manuscripts we have of the Gospel of Mark. These four attestations of the Long Ending being included in Mark pre-date any edition of any other early Bibles.

Writers in the 200’s long before the Codex Vaticanus, also, used the Longer Ending of Mark: Porphyry (234-305 AD) did and in the De Rebaptismate (On Re-baptism) by an unknown author included The Longer Ending. The other manuscripts and fragments of Mark 16:9-20 being extant and used over the early centuries are too numerous to mention. In the c. 300’s or earlier in the Calendar of Greek Church lessons they used Mark 16:9-20 as the verses to be read on Ascension Day and on St. Mary Magdalene’s Day.

Vincentius (died c. 304 AD), Bishop of Thibori, at the 7th Council of Carthage held under Cyprian in 256 in the presence of the 87 assembled African bishops, quoted Mark 16:17,18 which was recorded in the minutes.

Ambrose (374-397 A.D.), Archbishop of Milan, quoted from the Long Ending of Mark’s Gospel. In the late 300’s Ambrose cites Mark’s Gospel verse 15 some 4 times: Verses 16, 17, 18 each 3 times: Verse 20 once.

Jerome (331–420 A.D.). At the request of Pope Damasus I for a Latin revision of the Bible, Jerome produced the official Catholic version of the Bible called the Latin Vulgate. Jerome consulted several manuscripts, all of which contained the The Long Ending. His confirmation of Mark 16:9-20 is seen in the Vulgate….

As can be seen, The Long Ending in Mark included in Mark’s Gospel the verses 16: 9-20 for hundreds of years in the Early Church. This is a strong refutation of “scholarly speculations” 1,600 years AFTER Mark wrote his Gospel.—Sandra Sweeny Silver https://earlychurchhistory.org/beliefs-2/long-or-short-ending-in-mark/
Yeah, you have good information there. And I would definitely tend to think that the long ending of Mark was in the original. But we don't have the original, nor is anyone alive who read the original. So there is no positive proof.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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Yeah, you have good information there. And I would definitely tend to think that the long ending of Mark was in the original. But we don't have the original, nor is anyone alive who read the original. So there is no positive proof.
True, but if we apply the same standards the textual critics apply—or at least claim to apply; namely: Which is more likely? then it seems it would have to be the earlier references.
 

Dirtman

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2022
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Truth is truth no matter how small one thinks. I want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. If the very first verse I the Bible is in question, how can I trust verse two? Three? Four? Etc..
Yep I agree totally.

שָּׁמַ֖יִם šā·mǎʹ·yim heaven, sky
noun, common, masculine, plural, absolute

So the old KJV is right out.

KJV In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

NKJV In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

My goodness, the corruption is unbelievable! Call the elders! Summon the media! Kick the dog!

smh...

John146, you really should think before posting. It will save you from looking like a fool.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
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I would love to have a conversation with you.
I have very different opinions of the Russo Ukrainian war.
I am very novice at Greek. But I love the History of the Church (bible translation is a part of that subject) but a small part. The storys behind the translators are more compelling, and quite telling.
When Ukraine beats back the Russians, I'd be happy to talk! 2 of my grandparents, 4 great grandparents were born in Ukraine. I have many family members fighting in Ukraine, some have been killed.

Putin is a disturbed dictator who admires Stalin. Stalin killed up to 10 million Ukrainian in 1932-33, the Holomodor and again in 1937-38, which is when 1 of my great grandfathers was killed! Genocide is Putin's agenda. I have loads on the Russification of Ukraine, going back to the 16th century. Russia has always been the aggressors, and they are going to lose this time!
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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well Lucys avatar seems like shes cosying up to a lion so, shouldn't she be reading lolcat bible?

Its Ceiling Cat!
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
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London
christianchat.com
I'm not much of a historian and use Wikipedia>>The Puritan party hoped to capitalize James's previous station as the King of Scotland, where he had administered the mostly Presbyterian Scots of the Church of Scotland. Among the most significant grievances leveled by the Puritans were their opposition to ritualism. From article on Millenary Petition. Sounds like Puritans and James were anti Catholic. Another investigation for Lucy Worsley here? Maybe her history is more accurate. Can't prove it by me.
The Presbyterians ruled James in Scotland with a rod of iron, he had a true loathing for them. The Stuarts leaned towards the Catholics but dared not do so publicly. Mary Queen of Scots was Catholic.

It was Charles 1 attempt to unify the Scottish church with the English church, with it's bishops, that began the civil war.
 
P

persistent

Guest
The Presbyterians ruled James in Scotland with a rod of iron, he had a true loathing for them. The Stuarts leaned towards the Catholics but dared not do so publicly. Mary Queen of Scots was Catholic.

It was Charles 1 attempt to unify the Scottish church with the English church, with it's bishops, that began the civil war.
 
P

persistent

Guest
I get most of my history info from Wikipedia and it seems there was a LOT of intrigue going on at that time of English/Scottish history. I like Lucy Worsley's history shows and if she put her spotlight on this history it could be very illuminating. Just as any time in history it takes 100's of years to get to what is really going on if ever.
 

ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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From the Preface to the 2018 edition of the NKJV:

The Greek text used for the New Testament is the one that was followed by the King James translators: the traditional text of the Greek-speaking churches called the Received Text or Textus Receptus, first published in 1516. Footnotes indicate significant variants as found in two other editions of the Greek New Testament:

(1) NU-Text: These variations generally represent the Alexandrian or Egyptian text type as found in the critical text published in the twenty-sixth edition of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament (N) and in the United Bible Societies' third edition (U).​
(2) M-Text: These variations represent readings found in the text of the first edition of the Hodges & Farstad Greek New Testament According to the Majority Text, which represents the consensus found in the majority of surviving New Testament manuscripts.​
The NKJV is the only mainstream version I know of that lists readings from the majority text. There are other versions available that are based on the majority text but they haven't gained much traction.
 
P

persistent

Guest
When Ukraine beats back the Russians, I'd be happy to talk! 2 of my grandparents, 4 great grandparents were born in Ukraine. I have many family members fighting in Ukraine, some have been killed.

Putin is a disturbed dictator who admires Stalin. Stalin killed up to 10 million Ukrainian in 1932-33, the Holomodor and again in 1937-38, which is when 1 of my great grandfathers was killed! Genocide is Putin's agenda. I have loads on the Russification of Ukraine, going back to the 16th century. Russia has always been the aggressors, and they are going to lose this time!
A bout 2001-2005 I came to know a family who claimed to be Jewish (particularly maternally) from somewhere in the East of Russia originally and the paternal lineage I never knew and didn't ask, but on the male side of the family they claimed Stalin was a great man. Seems to me a set up for family quarrels to say the least? Bad situation about your relatives. I only vaguely know anything about my grandparents on both sides only that they came from Poland and Lithuania and an uncle by marriage that came from Lithuania via Germany around WW2. All my relatives are passed on mother's side and on father's side never really knew them but did meet a cousin around 1989 and she married a Muslim man, (Jimmy he called himself) from Tunisia and was asking whether she should go live there with him. Jimmy was in my car one day and almost crying because he couldn't get any work here except for being a cabbie and claimed that his family in Tunisia was fairly wealthy but Tunisian laws prohibited sending ?money? out of the country. Dilemma?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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The NKJV is the only mainstream version I know of that lists readings from the majority text
A word of caution. The NKJV has compromised with the ideas of the modern text critics. So it is not to be trusted.

1. The so-called "Majority Text" is NOT the Received Text (TR). And since the majority of manuscripts remain uncollated, that is a misleading term. Thus it is a "provisional text" and not necessarily superior to the TR.

2. The introduction of variant readings into the margins casts doubt upon the text itself.

3. There are a great many departures from the Received Text so it is simply a mishmash.

4. There are also many serious faults in translation. So there was no point in coming up with another faulty translation.

And the list goes on and on. But it is also significant that the NKJV used a New Age symbol on its cover. It is an occult symbol connected with the Aquarian Conspiracy (which is ultimately a Satanic conspiracy). If that is not enough to shun this translation, then there is nothing more to be said.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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A word of caution. The NKJV has compromised with the ideas of the modern text critics. So it is not to be trusted.

1. The so-called "Majority Text" is NOT the Received Text (TR). And since the majority of manuscripts remain uncollated, that is a misleading term. Thus it is a "provisional text" and not necessarily superior to the TR.

2. The introduction of variant readings into the margins casts doubt upon the text itself.

3. There are a great many departures from the Received Text so it is simply a mishmash.

4. There are also many serious faults in translation. So there was no point in coming up with another faulty translation.

And the list goes on and on. But it is also significant that the NKJV used a New Age symbol on its cover. It is an occult symbol connected with the Aquarian Conspiracy (which is ultimately a Satanic conspiracy). If that is not enough to shun this translation, then there is nothing more to be said.
I've investigated the NKJV and in my opinion the only reason it gets bashed is because it's not the KJV. The Majority Text is okay.
 

Dirtman

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Jul 19, 2022
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When Ukraine beats back the Russians, I'd be happy to talk! 2 of my grandparents, 4 great grandparents were born in Ukraine. I have many family members fighting in Ukraine, some have been killed.

Putin is a disturbed dictator who admires Stalin. Stalin killed up to 10 million Ukrainian in 1932-33, the Holomodor and again in 1937-38, which is when 1 of my great grandfathers was killed! Genocide is Putin's agenda. I have loads on the Russification of Ukraine, going back to the 16th century. Russia has always been the aggressors, and they are going to lose this time!
I do not support the Russian invasion. I put a lot of the blame on " the west". After the dissolution of the Soviet Union there was little to no attempt to reestablish; suddenly in 2014 Russia began reclaiming areas of the old Soviet Union, and supporting a civil war in Ukraine.
 

ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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2. The introduction of variant readings into the margins casts doubt upon the text itself.
The NKJV Preface says: "The textual notes in the New King James version attempt to make no evaluation of variant readings but seek instead to present the facts objectively."

I don't have a problems with notes. However, most modern versions say things like "the earliest and most reliable manuscripts say" x, y or z. In other words they aren't objective and in many cases are outright dishonest.
 

Beckie

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Feb 15, 2022
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I don't know one person who is a dispensationalist that believes the footnotes are the inspire words of God.
Well maybe they wont say so in so many words.

Jesus says Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Dispensationalist say
Matthew 4:17
at hand
"At hand" is never a positive affirmation that the person or thing said to be "at hand" will immediately appear, but only that no known or predicted event must intervene. When Christ appeared to the Jewish people, the next thing in the order of revelation as it then stood, should have been the setting up of the Davidic kingdom. In the knowledge of God, not yet disclosed, lay the rejection of the kingdom (and King), the long period of the mystery-form of the kingdom, the world-wide preaching of the cross, and the out-calling of the Church. But this was as yet locked up in the secret counsels of God. Mat_13:11; Mat_13:17; Eph_3:3-10.

Jesus gives us a lesson in this parable......Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

The dispensational lesson is .
Another parable
That interpretation of the parable of the Leaven (Mat_13:33) which makes (with variation as to details) the leaven to be the Gospel, introduced into the world ("three measures of meal") by the church, and working subtly until the world is converted ("till the whole was leavened") is open to fatal objection:......

Summary:
(1) Leaven, as a symbolic or typical substance, is always mentioned in the O.T. in an evil sense

Yet the Scriptures say
Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Lev 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
Lev 23:17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.


 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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The NKJV Preface says: "The textual notes in the New King James version attempt to make no evaluation of variant readings but seek instead to present the facts objectively."
And this is total BS.