Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[lamad]

Your whole argument falls apart because it is well proven that Gods wrath doesn't start until after the great tribulation at the return of Christ per the Olivet Discourse, the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial.

Well proven by you means no pretribber would believe it. I have a novel idea: why not just believe John? He tells us the DAY of His wrath starts at the 6th seal. "It is well proven" that this Start of the DAY comes a short time before the Start of the WEEK.

Please, show us any wrath of our Father God after Jesus' coming in Rev. 19. Maybe somewhere in chapter 20? 21?

I hope some day you learn John's chronology.

 

[Runningman]

Hi Runningman,

Both references to God's wrath at the 6th seal and 7th trumpet are general announcements which includes all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. To be clear, at the 6th trumpet when we read "the great day of their wrath has come and who can stand," it includes the seals that will have already taken place, as well as trumpets and bowls that follow. The announcement at the 6th seal is not a starting point for God's wrath. If that were true, then the announcement at the 7th trumpet would also be a starting point, which would give us two separate starting points.

Jesus as the Lamb, is the One opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments and which means that He is responsible for all of the resulting fatalities. And yes, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in the chronological order that they appear in Revelation. Otherwise, it would make no sense to list them as one thru seven.

Exactly. The announcement of the 6th seal of God's wrath is not the precise moment that Gods wrath starts. The opening of the 6th seal corresponds to the blowing if the 7th trumpet which corresponds to the action of the 7th vial showing the completion of Gods wrath.

By the time we get to Revelation chapter 16 where the vials of wrath are poured out the great tribulation has already finished. The wrath is for the wicked.

What I meant by it's not written in chronological sequence is exactly what you pointed out. The seals correspond to the trumpets which in turn correspond to the vials. So in order to see that seals are signaling the trumpets and the trumpets are signaling the vials theres literally some flipping back and forth of pages.

Does that make sense?

Also notice what happens at the 6th seal, the stars fall from heaven, the sun goes black, the moon dims to red. Sounds like what Jesus said would happen "immediately after the tribulation" in Matthew 24:29. 6th seal also mentions the fig tree just like Matthew 24.

 

[lamad]

I just quoted a brief part of their INTRODUCTION, per 15:1 (see here the whole CONTEXT):

Revelation 15:1-8 -

Seven Angels with Seven Plagues

1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them [PLURAL] is filled up [/is COMPLETED - G5055 - etelesthē / teleó ] the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled [/were COMPLETED - G5055 - telesthōsin / teleó ].



The next chapter (chpt.16, v.1) is a voice telling those "seven angels" to
"Go, and pour out the seven vials of the wrath of God unto the earth [the ones just having been introduced in the previous chapter, which had stated "for IN THEM [PLURAL--IN ALL OF THEM] the wrath of God IS COMPLETED [G5055]"!]

https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/16-1.htm - Revelation 16:1 [see at link]



I have no clue why you are insisting that only the final [7th] "VIAL" (which *you* equate with Seal #6 and Trumpet #7) is "the wrath of God," when these texts I'm pointing out clearly show that this is NOT THE CASE (that only the final "VIAL" [the 7th] is the wrath of God... its arrival and conclusion both. NO.)

It's obvious: he just does not know.

 

[lamad]

False. The 7th vial is God's wrath. It plainly states it below. God's wrath is also revealed in the 6th seal and 7th trumpet. Need me to quote those, too?

The 7th Vial
Revelation 16:17
17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

So you don't believe John in Revelation. We already surmised that. Evidently you know more that John. Go figure.

 

[lamad]

Your whole argument falls apart because it is well proven that Gods wrath doesn't start until after the great tribulation at the return of Christ per the Olivet Discourse, the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial.

If this is so well proven, show us a verse that proves it? Good luck with that!

 

[Runningman]

So you don't believe John in Revelation. We already surmised that. Evidently you know more that John. Go figure.

You think the 7th vial is not God's wrath? The other vials are Gods wrath, too, but that isn't my point. Compare what happens in the 7th vial to the day of wrath mentioned in the 6th seal and 7th trumpet and you'll see what I mean. The vials happen after the great tribulation is already over. They're part of the wrath of God on the wicked.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It's obvious: he just does not know.

Well, even 15:7 (which I wish I had also bolded ) says clearly:

" 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of [G1073 - gemousas /gemó - 'totally characterized by'] the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever."



ALL SEVEN OF THEM (not merely the "7th" VIAL) are "full of THE WRATH OF GOD"... That is, Vials 1 through 7!




And the 7 VIALS themselves TAKE SOME TIME to unfold upon the earth.

Here's just the SIXTH one:

"And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared." Rev16:12

 

[Ahwatukee]

Exactly. The announcement of the 6th seal of God's wrath is not the precise moment that Gods wrath starts.

The opening of the 6th seal corresponds to the blowing if the 7th trumpet which corresponds to the action of the 7th vial showing the completion of Gods wrath.

By the time we get to Revelation chapter 16 where the vials of wrath are poured out the great tribulation has already finished. The wrath is for the wicked.

That's where we differ. The great tribulation is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. The great tribulation does not complete until after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath. All of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are for the wicked. The 6th seal and 7th trumpet have nothing to do with each other, but are separate plagues of wrath.

Also notice what happens at the 6th seal, the stars fall from heaven, the sun goes black, the moon dims to red. Sounds like what Jesus said would happen "immediately after the tribulation" in Matthew 24:29. 6th seal also mentions the fig tree just like Matthew 24.

Matt.24:29-31, though they sound similar, are two different events. In Matt.24:29 the sun and moon are darkened, where at the 6th seal there the sun is darkened and the moon turns blood red. Also, in Matt.24:29 there is no mention of a great earthquake like there is at the 6th seal.

In Matt.24:29 take place in close proximity to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. That being the case, there is no mention or room for the trumpets and bowl judgments to take place.

Jesus will not return to the earth to end the age until all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have taken place, His return of which is listed in Revelation 19:11-21.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Your whole argument falls apart because it is well proven that Gods wrath doesn't start until after the great tribulation at the return of Christ per the Olivet Discourse, the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial.

The great tribulation is apart of God's wrath. I think that what is tripping you up, is Matt.24:29 and the event of the 6th seal. Though they sound similar, they are separate events having to do with the sun, moon and stars.

 

[lamad]

You think the 7th vial is not God's wrath? The other vials are Gods wrath, too, but that isn't my point. Compare what happens in the 7th vial to the day of wrath mentioned in the 6th seal and 7th trumpet and you'll see what I mean. The vials happen after the great tribulation is already over. They're part of the wrath of God on the wicked.

Sorry, but I believe what is written. I am going to stick with it.

Revelation 15:1
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Each angel had a plague, and was given a vial or bowl of wrath to go with each plague. So OF COURSE there is wrath at the 7th vial. But God's wrath is finished then. (The Son may still have wrath at Armageddon.)

No, my friend, I will never see what you mean, because I don't read those scriptures the way you do.

You still don't understand that God pours out the vials of His wrath late in the last half of the week to SHORTEN those days of GT." They are poured out when Satan's wrath is at its peak in beheading people. Just so you will know, the first vials come before the 7th and the 7th ends the 70th week. So they (the first 6) are close to the end, but not AT the end, Because some days of the last 1260 days will still be going on - they just won't be days of GT. In other words, God will not shorten the 1260 days, but will shorten the number of days of GT during the 1260 days.

 

[lamad]

Well, even 15:7 (which I wish I had also bolded ) says clearly:

" 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of [G1073 - gemousas /gemó - 'totally characterized by'] the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever."



ALL SEVEN OF THEM (not merely the "7th" VIAL) are "full of THE WRATH OF GOD"... That is, Vials 1 through 7!




And the 7 VIALS themselves TAKE SOME TIME to unfold upon the earth.

Here's just the SIXTH one:

"And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared." Rev16:12

I have wondered if all the first 6 are poured out in one hour. Your thoughts? I am convinced God will use the vials to shorten those days of GT.

God could dry up a river very quickly. But I get your point. It will certainly take time for evil spirits to convince the leaders of many countries to send their armies.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I have wondered if all the first 6 are poured out in one hour. Your thoughts? I am convinced God will use the vials to shorten those days of GT.

So, you're thinking something like the following?:

"And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast, and its kingdom became darkened FOR TEN [LITERAL] MINUTES, and they were gnawing their tongues for the distress,"...

...no, I'm thinking the text does not mean such a thing (that 6 of these take only one 60-min period). I have to disagree, here. I believe the 7 Vials take a substantial period of time to unfold upon the earth, not 6 of them in merely one 60-minute period of time.

God could dry up a river very quickly. But I get your point. It will certainly take time for evil spirits to convince the leaders of many countries to send their armies.

 

[Runningman]

That's where we differ. The great tribulation is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. The great tribulation does not complete until after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath. All of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are for the wicked. The 6th seal and 7th trumpet have nothing to do with each other, but are separate plagues of wrath.



Matt.24:29-31, though they sound similar, are two different events. In Matt.24:29 the sun and moon are darkened, where at the 6th seal there the sun is darkened and the moon turns blood red. Also, in Matt.24:29 there is no mention of a great earthquake like there is at the 6th seal.

In Matt.24:29 take place in close proximity to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. That being the case, there is no mention or room for the trumpets and bowl judgments to take place.

Jesus will not return to the earth to end the age until all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have taken place, His return of which is listed in Revelation 19:11-21.

Notice that in Matthew 24:29 Jesus is quoting Isaiah which does mention an earthquake:

Isaiah 13:10
10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

So I maintain that the mention of the earthquake in the 6th seal and 7th vial are the same the thing:

6th seal
Revelation 6:12-114
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

7th vial
Revelation 16:17-18
17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

How could ever island and mountain be destroyed in the 6th seal and 7th vial if they aren't the same thing? The mention of the "great earthquake" that causes this has to be the exact same thing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Runningman said:
Your whole argument falls apart because it is well proven that Gods wrath doesn't start until after the great tribulation at the return of Christ per the Olivet Discourse, the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial.

Well proven by you means no pretribber would believe it. I have a novel idea: why not just believe John? He tells us the DAY of His wrath starts at the 6th seal. "It is well proven" that this Start of the DAY comes a short time before the Start of the WEEK.

Instead of just making claims, how come you guys don't quote a verse or 2 that demonstrates what you claim?

I hope some day you learn John's chronology.

You are in the right spot to TEACH us what John's chronology is. Why won't you?

 

[Truth7t7]

Runningman said:
Your whole argument falls apart because it is well proven that Gods wrath doesn't start until after the great tribulation at the return of Christ per the Olivet Discourse, the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial.

Instead of just making claims, how come you guys don't quote a verse or 2 that demonstrates what you claim?

You are in the right spot to TEACH us what John's chronology is. Why won't you?

You defy being taught, you have a Pre-Determined bias, and the truth of scripture has no meaning

Namely your false belief and teaching in a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth

Perhaps you can help me find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) No Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) No Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) No Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist), A 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Is A Man Made Fairy Tale (Fact)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time (Fact)

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You defy being taught, you have a Pre-Determined bias, and the truth of scripture has no meaning

I defy those who spiritualize Scripture so they can make up any old story they want. Rev 20 is quite literal. And you STILL can't explain what "1,000 years have ended" means.

And...you have your fantasy spiritualized Millennium ending when Christ returns at the Second Advent. That is purely absurd.

Namely your false belief and teaching in a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth

You can call Rev 20 a "false belief" all you want. Who cares? It's literal and any fantasy spiritualizing is just rubbish.

Perhaps you can help me find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) No Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) No Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) No Physical Mortal Humans?

It's all there, in literal words. Except #3. Of course Jesus Christ, as King of kings, will be "ruling the nations with a rod of iron". That would be physical mortal humans.

The Above Claims (Don't Exist), A 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Is A Man Made Fairy Tale (Fact)

Reality check: your spiritualized fantasy is what is man made. Just made up stuff.

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

You keep repeating this mantra, but it doesn't even make sense. Have you bothered to proof read it? Try it out loud and see how it sounds.

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time (Fact)

Made up stuff of fantasy.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

When are you going to figure out how to explain the red words above?

Spiritualizing the red words is worse than absurd. It's totally irrational.

 

[lamad]

So, you're thinking something like the following?:

"And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast, and its kingdom became darkened FOR TEN [LITERAL] MINUTES, and they were gnawing their tongues for the distress,"...

...no, I'm thinking the text does not mean such a thing (that 6 of these take only one 60-min period). I have to disagree, here. I believe the 7 Vials take a substantial period of time to unfold upon the earth, not 6 of them in merely one 60-minute period of time.

No, the one hour would mean at least the first 5 plagues start within one hour. As soon as one angel starts his plague, and pours out his bowl of wrath, the next one comes. There is no hint of how long each plague would last. I think the darkness may well last until Jesus returns. I guess I got the idea of all the plagues coming in one hour from chapters 17 & 18. I am may be wrong here. However, I am convinced that God uses these vials to shorten those says of GT. With that in mind, why not hit the kingdom of the beast with everything at the same time. it would render people helpless to do anything. All beheadings would stop.

 

[FreeGrace2]

TheDivineWatermark said:
So, you're thinking something like the following?:

"And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast, and its kingdom became darkened FOR TEN [LITERAL] MINUTES, and they were gnawing their tongues for the distress,"...

...no, I'm thinking the text does not mean such a thing (that 6 of these take only one 60-min period). I have to disagree, here. I believe the 7 Vials take a substantial period of time to unfold upon the earth, not 6 of them in merely one 60-minute period of time.

No, the one hour would mean at least the first 5 plagues start within one hour. As soon as one angel starts his plague, and pours out his bowl of wrath, the next one comes. There is no hint of how long each plague would last. I think the darkness may well last until Jesus returns. I guess I got the idea of all the plagues coming in one hour from chapters 17 & 18. I am may be wrong here. However, I am convinced that God uses these vials to shorten those says of GT. With that in mind, why not hit the kingdom of the beast with everything at the same time. it would render people helpless to do anything. All beheadings would stop.

Where do either of you find any mention of time regarding any of the bowls? I can't find any mention of time in Rev 16 regarding the bowls of wrath.

 

[lamad]

TheDivineWatermark said:
So, you're thinking something like the following?:

"And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast, and its kingdom became darkened FOR TEN [LITERAL] MINUTES, and they were gnawing their tongues for the distress,"...

...no, I'm thinking the text does not mean such a thing (that 6 of these take only one 60-min period). I have to disagree, here. I believe the 7 Vials take a substantial period of time to unfold upon the earth, not 6 of them in merely one 60-minute period of time.

Where do either of you find any mention of time regarding any of the bowls? I can't find any mention of time in Rev 16 regarding the bowls of wrath.

Maybe I had a non sequitur!

I got the "one hour" from chapter 18.

 

[lamad]

Runningman said:
Your whole argument falls apart because it is well proven that Gods wrath doesn't start until after the great tribulation at the return of Christ per the Olivet Discourse, the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial.

Instead of just making claims, how come you guys don't quote a verse or 2 that demonstrates what you claim?


You are in the right spot to TEACH us what John's chronology is. Why won't you?

Who said I won't?

I can teach, but will other's believe? John takes us on a straight walk through time,
from Chapter 4 while Christ was on earth,
◘ to chapter 5 when Christ ascended,
◘ to the first five seals in the church age,
◘ to the rapture (But John did not get to see it) and
◘ then to the start of wrath at the 6th seal. (Rapture before wrath)
◘ Then John saw the raptured church in heaven, chapter 7. (chapter 7 is an intermission from the realtime of the seals, trumpets and vials.
◘ Chapter 8 starts the 70th week and 8 & 9 take us to just before the midpoint of the week, which will be marked by the 7th trumpet.
◘ John takes a short intermission in chapter 10, then is back to the realtime of the trumpets.
◘ Chapter 11 has two countdowns from the midpoint to the end of the week; 42 months and 1260 days showing it to be a "midpoint" chapter. Verse 1 is probably only days from the division point of the week: the abomination.

Somehow I pressed a key that posted this before I intended. Continued.