Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

TheDivineWatermark · May 10, 2021

What do you think about what I wrote at the bottom of my Post #2609 (page 131)?

[quoting excerpt] "Well, in the Matt25:31-34 passage and context (Sheep and goat judgment of the nations [/Gentiles]), [...] They are all "still-living" persons at the time-slot being referenced (same time-slot referred to as found in Matt19:28--a verse showing what is subsequent to this point in the chronology)." [end quoting from that post]

--Matt25:31-34 reads: "31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom [having been] prepared for you from ["apo"; not "pro/BEFORE" as is used of others elsewhere] the foundation of the world:"

--Matt19:28 [comp. also Lk22:30] reads: "28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel." [that's in the MK age]

[notice also that these verses correspond with Isaiah 24:23 (21-23), where v.23 says, "23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously." ]

lamad · May 10, 2021

Guojing said:

I believe the Gentile church of today would not exist if it were not for Paul.

God waited as the book of Acts started, waiting for Israel as a nation to accept Him as their Messiah. Finally He got tired of waiting and gave up on the Jews - and sent Paul to the Gentiles.

I suspect, if Israel had accepted Him, the 70th week would have been finished long ago. God allowed a parenthesis in Jewish time and inserted the Gentile church. The moment after the rapture, it is right back to Jewish time.

Jordan · May 10, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

To the scientific, I teach design that leads to the designer

To those that are sick I teach the Healing Messiah

To those that are confused, I show logic and simplicity and truth that can be known.

To the Jews who think they are better than others, I teach simple Old Testament Prophecy that Jews dont know and simple humility

Thats not four different classes of people but that all need Jesus in his many facets and truths that lead to HIS TRUTH

Jews are just people, stop worshipping the Jews. (see Never be political or nationalistic thread)

lamad · May 10, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Huh? Are you actually suggesting that "the Lord" and "the Messiah" are 2 different people???

Paul and Peter preached the exact same message to Jews and Gentiles alike. It is absurd to claim otherwise.

Read through Acts and see for yourself what Paul and Peter preached. While Peter mainly went to Jews (there was Cornelius and his entire household and friends who were all Gentiles) and Paul, after much preaching to Jews, finally focused on Gentiles, their messages were the same. Full stop.[/QUOTE]

Peter to the Jews: "you murdered our Messiah! But God raised Him up." (but nothing about salvation in His death and resurrection.)

Acts 2:
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Paul's gospel:
Gal 1:1 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Peter to the Jews: You murdered our Messiah.
Paul to the Gentiles: He gave Himself for our sins.

FreeGrace2 · May 10, 2021

Jordan · May 10, 2021

Read above... different audience background, same message all are sinners, all need Jesus

Jews and Gentiles are EQUAL

Birthright has no application ALL must choose..all as in ALL.

The Pope said NO, the Pope and popes are wrong... all, popes and POPE are sinners...all remain sinners, only Jesus was righteous.

Simple truer Christianity.

Now go tell the jewish people they are equal to the Gentiles

FreeGrace2 · May 10, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
I believe the judgment of Matt 25 refers to the GWT judgment of Rev 20:11-15, in which ALL unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire.

So that means the Millennial kingdom is BEFORE, not AFTER, Matt 25.

Problem solved.

TheDivineWatermark said:

What am I supposed to think about it? I just explained the order of the GWT judgment and the LoF. What do you think about it?

Where do you get the idea that they are "still-living"??? Aren't you familiar with Rev 20:11-15?

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, explain how "the dead" are able to "stand before the throne". This is what Matt 25 is referring to. And this is what the "second death, or second resurrection is, per Rev 20:5 - 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

So, the "first resurrection" is at the Second Coming of Christ, and the "second one" is at the GWT judgment.

Nothing here says these people hadn't already died and were at the GWT judgment.

FreeGrace2 · May 10, 2021

Jordan said:

To the scientific, I teach design that leads to the designer

To those that are sick I teach the Healing Messiah

To those that are confused, I show logic and simplicity and truth that can be known.

To the Jews who think they are better than others, I teach simple Old Testament Prophecy that Jews dont know and simple humility

Thats not four different classes of people but that all need Jesus in his many facets and truths that lead to HIS TRUTH

Jews are just people, stop worshipping the Jews. (see Never be political or nationalistic thread)

What do you mean, "stop worshiping the Jews"??? Where do you get your notions?

lamad · May 10, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said:
I believe the judgment of Matt 25 refers to the GWT judgment of Rev 20:11-15, in which ALL unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire.

So that means the Millennial kingdom is BEFORE, not AFTER, Matt 25.

Problem solved.

What am I supposed to think about it? I just explained the order of the GWT judgment and the LoF. What do you think about it?

Where do you get the idea that they are "still-living"??? Aren't you familiar with Rev 20:11-15?

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, explain how "the dead" are able to "stand before the throne". This is what Matt 25 is referring to. And this is what the "second death, or second resurrection is, per Rev 20:5 - 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

So, the "first resurrection" is at the Second Coming of Christ, and the "second one" is at the GWT judgment.

Nothing here says these people hadn't already died and were at the GWT judgment.

I have to side with TDW here. I think your timing is mixed up.

Jordan · May 10, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Almost all church systems demand that flocks honor the Jews as different and better than Christians.

Christ made all equal, when they accept HIM.

Jews think law obedience that has never ever never been fulfilled, as their claim to superiority.

Have you never realised this, so are you saying that Jews dont need Jesus, and are automatically different and favorites to the Lord because of heritage rather than choice ?

TheDivineWatermark · May 10, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

I'm familiar with it, yes, but I'm saying that you are reading Matt25:31-34 INTO Rev20:11-15.

"death" will be much more rare in the Millennial Kingdom age (reserved only for the rebellious [/unsaved, if you will]); and the only ones who will enter it at its commencing are "believers / saints / the righteous" (those [saints] who survived through the trib years will enter it in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children... and those "born" to them [and so forth] will not be "born automatically righteous"... so it will be *these* who will be the only ones susceptible to "death" [throughout the MK age]). All other "saints" will have been "resurrected" prior to / IN TIME FOR the earthly MK age to START.

So where are you getting that "Sheep / the righteous" will have died and been "resurrected" FOR the GWTj? No "righteous / saints [what *you* are calling the Sheep]" will have DIED in / during the MK age, see. "Death" will be much more rare in the MK age.
And your answer does not address how Matt25:31-34 is parallel to Matt19:28 [/Lk22:30... also Isa24:23(21-23)/1Cor15:25-28], either.

[recall how Jesus told [illustrating] of the one guy saying "I am tormented IN THIS FLAME" at a point in time when there is still remaining "time" for his brothers to not come here also...

]

TheDivineWatermark · May 10, 2021

Jordan said:

Wrong.

TheDivineWatermark · May 10, 2021

Jordan said:

One should understand Paul's argument here, by grasping his point in the spans of at least 3 chapters (rather than trying to extract this one verse out from its context and applying it willy-nilly, as you are doing

).

[quoting another old post]

[Post #19] https://christianchat.com/threads/w...heavenly-places-in-christ.195388/post-4400472

Well, in Romans 2:29, where Paul had said, "But he is a Jew WHICH IS ONE inwardly"... those words "WHICH IS ONE" are important to tell us just what Paul is speaking of... he is only speaking of Jews here in this verse (not "believing GENTILES" that are supposedly [upon believing] now "true Jews," no.) One must grasp Paul's outline [in ROMANS], in these first three chpts... He alternates between speaking of humanity in general, to Jews in particular... here's the general OUTLINE (if I don't mess this up

):

--Romans 1:1-7 Salutation

--Romans 1:17-32 Humanity in general [with v.18 covering two distinct aspects: 18a=general humanity; 18b=Jews ('[who] hold the truth [...]')]

--Romans 2:1-16 Transition

--Romans 2:17 - 3:20 Jew-specific [with 2:29's "But he is a Jew which IS ONE inwardly" (speaking of the believing Jews within the whole of Jews--but Jews only, here... NOT "Gentiles" BECOMING "Jews/true Jews"

)]

--Romans 3:21+ God's righteousness revealed in the gospel

So, no, I disagree that Paul is saying that Gentiles BECOME "true Jews" upon faithing... no. That is not the CONTEXT of Paul's words in chpt 2:17-3:20 (which section is centered around "Jews," per context).

[end quoting old post]

lamad · May 10, 2021

Jordan said:

I agree, all need the gospel, but it is a fact of scripture that it went to the Jew first and that Paul's gospel was different. At the Jerusalem Conference, the Jewish leaders made that decision final.

Acts 15
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

FreeGrace2 · May 10, 2021

lamad said:

Please show me how it is. Opinions are all right, but facts are better.

FreeGrace2 · May 10, 2021

Jordan said:

But, honoring and worshiping are two completely different things. Please choose your words more carefully.

Amen.

No, of course not. Why would you think I believe any of that? Every human being on earth needs to believe in Christ, the Messiah, in order to live with God forever. No exceptions.

FreeGrace2 · May 10, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

I'm familiar with it, yes, but I'm saying that you are reading Matt25:31-34 INTO Rev20:11-15.

"death" will be much more rare in the Millennial Kingdom age (reserved only for the rebellious [/unsaved, if you will]); and the only ones who will enter it at its commencing are "believers / saints / the righteous" (those [saints] who survived through the trib years will enter it in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children... and those "born" to them [and so forth] will not be "born automatically righteous"... so it will be *these* who will be the only ones susceptible to "death" [throughout the MK age]). All other "saints" will have been "resurrected" prior to / IN TIME FOR the earthly MK age to START.

So where are you getting that "Sheep / the righteous" will have died and been "resurrected" FOR the GWTj? No "righteous / saints [what *you* are calling the Sheep]" will have DIED in / during the MK age, see. "Death" will be much more rare in the MK age.
And your answer does not address how Matt25:31-34 is parallel to Matt19:28 [/Lk22:30... also Isa24:23(21-23)/1Cor15:25-28], either.

[recall how Jesus told [illustrating] of the one guy saying "I am tormented IN THIS FLAME" at a point in time when there is still remaining "time" for his brothers to not come here also...

]

I believe that only unbelievers will enter the Millennial Reign of Christ. When Christ returns, He resurrects/raptures all believers throughout all the ages. They will serve in His Millennial Kingdom. Christ will be ruling the nearly half of the world's population with a rod of iron. (about 3.5 Billion).

lamad · May 10, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

There really is nothing in Matthew 25 that sounds like the GWTJ. I can't even imagine how that idea came to you.

The ten virgins are about the marriage supper, Rev. 19.

At the judgment of the nations, all nations - living people; no dead people - are gathered and divided. The judgment is decided by how people treated the Jews during the days of GT. That alone should be enough to pinpoint the time to just after the 70th week has finished.

On the other hand, who is at the GWTJ? The dead from hell. They are resurrected to attend their trial.

FreeGrace2 · May 10, 2021

lamad said:

Really? Didn't you read all the way to v.31-46? It's all about the final judgment.

Check

This is all opinion. Where do you get the notiong that living people will be judged? Certainly not the tribulation. The only end time judgment occurs at the GWT.

Check.

Absolutely · May 10, 2021

lamad said:

Mat 25 ( 10 virgins)is the rapture.

The bible ends with " ...the spirit and the bride say come"

" even so come Lord Jesus".

The bible ends in the rapture

Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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