Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
- Thread starter cv5
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Here's how I'm seeing that:
Luke 1 -
30 So the angel told her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”
--"the throne of David"/ "the throne of his father David" being entirely (and only) earthly-located (i.e. He is not PRESENTLY seated on "the throne of David" UP IN Heaven [...and then later "the throne of David" supposedly "relocates"... no]).
--this particular throne is: "the throne of His glory"... "His glorious throne" (earthly-located, and commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth--though the PRONOUNCEMENT will precede that point in the chronology, by some measure of "time" [i.e. before His actual "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19])
This ^ doesn't matter, in view of what I've put in the above-section.
Luke 1 -
30 So the angel told her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”
--"the throne of David"/ "the throne of his father David" being entirely (and only) earthly-located (i.e. He is not PRESENTLY seated on "the throne of David" UP IN Heaven [...and then later "the throne of David" supposedly "relocates"... no]).
--this particular throne is: "the throne of His glory"... "His glorious throne" (earthly-located, and commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth--though the PRONOUNCEMENT will precede that point in the chronology, by some measure of "time" [i.e. before His actual "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19])
This ^ doesn't matter, in view of what I've put in the above-section.
Please don't use Archbishop Usshers chronology. He used the Masoretic text which is short. Furthermore the formula he used is clearly incorrect.
The difference between the Alexandrian LXX (probably correct but certainly the best we've got) and the Masoretic is something like 1400 years. I forget exactly how much. There is absolutely no doubt that rabbi Akiba altered the Masoretic to suit his purposes.
But the real problem is that the formula the archbishop used is unquestionably incorrect IMO.
The correct formula is to SUM the total ages of the patriarchs. Unless otherwise noted. The incidences where you do NOT sum the total age of the patriarch are very very clear and duly noted.
I don't agree with the numbers in this link (there are definitely errors that I could detail but there's no need it's not that great) but they are reasonably close for argument. But the formula being used is correct in my opinion. It pushes creation way back to about 11,000 BC. The problem of Abraham being born so close to the time of the flood disappears. And believe me it needs to. It is absolutely impossible to shoehorn all of human history, archaeology and geology into 6000 years. I mean there were three absolutely staggering stupefying meteor strike phases in the geologic record. The flood.......ice ages......the Babel judgment catastrophe.....the Peleg division. There is a LOT going on.
www.biblemysteries.com/library/adam.htm
There are plenty of good reasons to believe that there could be gaps in the genealogies and this pushes creation back even further.
The difference between the Alexandrian LXX (probably correct but certainly the best we've got) and the Masoretic is something like 1400 years. I forget exactly how much. There is absolutely no doubt that rabbi Akiba altered the Masoretic to suit his purposes.
But the real problem is that the formula the archbishop used is unquestionably incorrect IMO.
The correct formula is to SUM the total ages of the patriarchs. Unless otherwise noted. The incidences where you do NOT sum the total age of the patriarch are very very clear and duly noted.
I don't agree with the numbers in this link (there are definitely errors that I could detail but there's no need it's not that great) but they are reasonably close for argument. But the formula being used is correct in my opinion. It pushes creation way back to about 11,000 BC. The problem of Abraham being born so close to the time of the flood disappears. And believe me it needs to. It is absolutely impossible to shoehorn all of human history, archaeology and geology into 6000 years. I mean there were three absolutely staggering stupefying meteor strike phases in the geologic record. The flood.......ice ages......the Babel judgment catastrophe.....the Peleg division. There is a LOT going on.
www.biblemysteries.com/library/adam.htm
There are plenty of good reasons to believe that there could be gaps in the genealogies and this pushes creation back even further.
what are you Meaning to say ? You think it means he’s actually holding a rod to beat people with ?
Bro the Bible is about Jesus and what took place in the gospel . It’s a spiritual rod that God is using to beat people ?
the term rod of iron is meant to convey understanding about christs authority over all the world, and the power and immutability of his word
if you believe this
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19 KJV
There should be no question who this is
“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
Revelation 12:5 KJV
that’s Jesus correct ? That’s all that needs to be understood to understand the rest . Then this makes sense
“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Acts 2:30, 32-33,
Jesus is the one who was born in Israel , the son of man , ( man child) and then was taken to the throne of God. There’s no other and those who accept the truth and overcome they are the children of God
“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”
Revelation 3:21 KJV
Christ is already seated on his throne in his kingdom and all his people are with him . brother there has since the beginning been both heaven and earth. Both material and immaterial He is seated in the heavens and one day soon , this will happen
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:
and his name is called The Word of God.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:
and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LORDS.”
Revelation 19:11-16 KJV
That is the return of Christ we are promised , seen in a spiritual vision to convey important revelation about the gospel .
it’s all about the one message of God the father , Jesus Christ , and believers being filled with the Holy Ghost and being born again as the children of God waiting to enter into his heavenly kingdom when we pass from this world .
of course Christ will rule with this rod of iron
“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
Matthew 24:35
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:18-20
the word of Christ is binding accompanying the shedding of his blood that makes our covenant with God and his word is the very rod of iron that will bring this world to its knees utterly before he restores it for his people making all things new and fulfilling his promises in the gospel
Bro the Bible is about Jesus and what took place in the gospel . It’s a spiritual rod that God is using to beat people ?
the term rod of iron is meant to convey understanding about christs authority over all the world, and the power and immutability of his word
if you believe this
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19 KJV
There should be no question who this is
“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
Revelation 12:5 KJV
that’s Jesus correct ? That’s all that needs to be understood to understand the rest . Then this makes sense
“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Acts 2:30, 32-33,
Jesus is the one who was born in Israel , the son of man , ( man child) and then was taken to the throne of God. There’s no other and those who accept the truth and overcome they are the children of God
“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”
Revelation 3:21 KJV
Christ is already seated on his throne in his kingdom and all his people are with him . brother there has since the beginning been both heaven and earth. Both material and immaterial He is seated in the heavens and one day soon , this will happen
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:
and his name is called The Word of God.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:
and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LORDS.”
Revelation 19:11-16 KJV
That is the return of Christ we are promised , seen in a spiritual vision to convey important revelation about the gospel .
it’s all about the one message of God the father , Jesus Christ , and believers being filled with the Holy Ghost and being born again as the children of God waiting to enter into his heavenly kingdom when we pass from this world .
of course Christ will rule with this rod of iron
“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
Matthew 24:35
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:18-20
the word of Christ is binding accompanying the shedding of his blood that makes our covenant with God and his word is the very rod of iron that will bring this world to its knees utterly before he restores it for his people making all things new and fulfilling his promises in the gospel
wouldn’t it be simpler to ask you to gove
Me a brief summary of what you particularly believe the rapture is ? I mean if I wanted to discuss with you that is ?
but it’s okay brother , I sense an argument so I digress And apologize for Any offense , I was just asking what ot
Is to you , because I wanted to know and see if o agreed so o could then present some scripture to support your idea or offer scripture to make you consider a bit
no offense intended
Me a brief summary of what you particularly believe the rapture is ? I mean if I wanted to discuss with you that is ?
but it’s okay brother , I sense an argument so I digress And apologize for Any offense , I was just asking what ot
Is to you , because I wanted to know and see if o agreed so o could then present some scripture to support your idea or offer scripture to make you consider a bit
no offense intended
Greetings Pilgrimshope!
The word 'Rapture' is not found in scripture, but is the Latin equivalent of the Greek word 'harpazo' found in I Thessalonian 4:17 which is defined as 'to seize, catch up, snatch away, properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively.' Paul used it when he said that he was 'caught up' to the third heaven and when Philip was 'snatched away' from the eunuch. It is also used regarding the Male Child of Rev.12:5 being 'snatched up' to God and His throne. The word is also used in the scripture where regarding believers, that no one can 'snatch them' out of Jesus' hand. Below is one of the main scriptures of where the teaching of the catching away or rapture comes from:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."
This event is also found in I Corinthians 15:52, although the word harpazo is not used there, but the believer as being transformed immortal and glorified.
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (and caught up)
The catching up of the church should not be confused with the event of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as they are two separate events, with different purposes.
On of the main reasons for the church being caught up, is because immediately following that event, God's time of wrath will begin via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will bring upon the earth. And since believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we must be caught up from the earth prior to the on-set of God's wrath.
This event of the Lord's appearing in the air and catching up His church, is what every true believer is anticipating and watching for and is also what the Lord told us to do. In writing to Titus, Paul called it 'the blessed hope,' which is the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
The word 'Rapture' is not found in scripture, but is the Latin equivalent of the Greek word 'harpazo' found in I Thessalonian 4:17 which is defined as 'to seize, catch up, snatch away, properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively.' Paul used it when he said that he was 'caught up' to the third heaven and when Philip was 'snatched away' from the eunuch. It is also used regarding the Male Child of Rev.12:5 being 'snatched up' to God and His throne. The word is also used in the scripture where regarding believers, that no one can 'snatch them' out of Jesus' hand. Below is one of the main scriptures of where the teaching of the catching away or rapture comes from:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."
This event is also found in I Corinthians 15:52, although the word harpazo is not used there, but the believer as being transformed immortal and glorified.
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (and caught up)
The catching up of the church should not be confused with the event of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as they are two separate events, with different purposes.
On of the main reasons for the church being caught up, is because immediately following that event, God's time of wrath will begin via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will bring upon the earth. And since believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we must be caught up from the earth prior to the on-set of God's wrath.
This event of the Lord's appearing in the air and catching up His church, is what every true believer is anticipating and watching for and is also what the Lord told us to do. In writing to Titus, Paul called it 'the blessed hope,' which is the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
-
1
- Show all
Except it doesn't appear in the bible a single time. Only post trib is taught:
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)
The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.
It's that simple.
Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference)in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)
The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.
It's that simple.
Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference)in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.
so what exactly are you saying can you simplify I can’t seem to myself . What if I was a new believer and asked you “ what is the rapture ?”
would you go into Greek words and everything or what would you just say to
Me to explain it ? I just want to know a simple idea of what the rapture means to you , I don’t want to debate when Christ is going to return and whether the church will not be here that seems rather clear without interpretation or Greek definitions
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
brother why do you suppose the early church was going through such terror under Rome ? Why were so Many of them martyred ? They were boiled in oil , skinned alive , thrown into pots with wild beasts and torn apart. They were crucified by Nero and set on fire and used as lamp posts all because they believed and refused to deny thier faith in Christ
if they were allowed to go through that tribulation why do you think the rest of the church is going to be raptured ? Brother think about it most of the church is already dead and in heaven .
It’s been happening for two thousand years in 2016 over 70,000 Christians were martyred world wide because of thier faith they are beheaded , set on fire in cages , rated with boiling tar women are
Raped and mutliated even in these present days this happens to missionaries and churches in foreign lands.
can I ask you when this rapture is going to happen and of not Gods wrath upon sin , what is it that has folled
The world with such suffering and sorrow ? Sin and death ?
throughout the world believers die , they go through terrible times on earth famines define some times on earth , war defines others , murder happens in every corner of creation even this year thousands of believers in Christ will
Be killed.
Millions will suffer through tribulations famine and hunger , terrible wars like in Syria where innocents are slaughtered every day by government soldiers . People have suffered through war , famine , economic depressions , droughts hunger , hundreds of thousands will starve others will die in earthquakes , others lost at sea
Is only one certain generation of the church going to be spared ? Why not the original church or the two thousand years since then why did all those believers suffer through tribulation of the world ?
is this rapture something rn at occurs every generation ? Or is it only for one certain generation of people ?
it seems like at the end he will gather those who are still on earth and heavens yet passed through the world , gather them together with all those who went before but again you wouldn’t find that thinking in a dictionary Greek or otherwise it’s only found in the scripture
like the one you quoted about those who remain when Jesus returned being changed and caught up together with the church in the air I’m still unclear of what the rapture is meant to be to the person I was asking I’m not sure I understand what your saying the rapture actually is either
Are you saying the final generation of the church will Be raptured before what ? Before he utterly destroyed the earth and all the people ? I agree with that so we’re just saying e rapture is when Jesus returns and fathers his people ? At the end of the world ?
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
I agree of your saying that stuff , the people who reject Jesus are going to experience a lot of suffering for eternity were not going to go through that part ....I’m just unclear about what your saying the rapture is
would you go into Greek words and everything or what would you just say to
Me to explain it ? I just want to know a simple idea of what the rapture means to you , I don’t want to debate when Christ is going to return and whether the church will not be here that seems rather clear without interpretation or Greek definitions
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
brother why do you suppose the early church was going through such terror under Rome ? Why were so Many of them martyred ? They were boiled in oil , skinned alive , thrown into pots with wild beasts and torn apart. They were crucified by Nero and set on fire and used as lamp posts all because they believed and refused to deny thier faith in Christ
if they were allowed to go through that tribulation why do you think the rest of the church is going to be raptured ? Brother think about it most of the church is already dead and in heaven .
It’s been happening for two thousand years in 2016 over 70,000 Christians were martyred world wide because of thier faith they are beheaded , set on fire in cages , rated with boiling tar women are
Raped and mutliated even in these present days this happens to missionaries and churches in foreign lands.
can I ask you when this rapture is going to happen and of not Gods wrath upon sin , what is it that has folled
The world with such suffering and sorrow ? Sin and death ?
throughout the world believers die , they go through terrible times on earth famines define some times on earth , war defines others , murder happens in every corner of creation even this year thousands of believers in Christ will
Be killed.
Millions will suffer through tribulations famine and hunger , terrible wars like in Syria where innocents are slaughtered every day by government soldiers . People have suffered through war , famine , economic depressions , droughts hunger , hundreds of thousands will starve others will die in earthquakes , others lost at sea
Is only one certain generation of the church going to be spared ? Why not the original church or the two thousand years since then why did all those believers suffer through tribulation of the world ?
is this rapture something rn at occurs every generation ? Or is it only for one certain generation of people ?
it seems like at the end he will gather those who are still on earth and heavens yet passed through the world , gather them together with all those who went before but again you wouldn’t find that thinking in a dictionary Greek or otherwise it’s only found in the scripture
like the one you quoted about those who remain when Jesus returned being changed and caught up together with the church in the air I’m still unclear of what the rapture is meant to be to the person I was asking I’m not sure I understand what your saying the rapture actually is either
Are you saying the final generation of the church will Be raptured before what ? Before he utterly destroyed the earth and all the people ? I agree with that so we’re just saying e rapture is when Jesus returns and fathers his people ? At the end of the world ?
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
I agree of your saying that stuff , the people who reject Jesus are going to experience a lot of suffering for eternity were not going to go through that part ....I’m just unclear about what your saying the rapture is
No! The interpretation that Jesus is the Male Child, is a common knee-jerk reaction. Rev.12:1-6 is all symbolism:
* Not a real woman
* Not really pregnant
* Doesn't give literal birth
* Not a real Male Child
* Not a real dragon
* Not literal stars
Each of the above symbols represents a literal meaning
* The woman = the nation Israel
* Being pregnant and giving birth = represents the 144,000 Israelite believers who come out of (gives birth to) the unbelieving nation of Israel. The male child is a collective name representing the 144,000 who are said to be all males in Revelation 14:4.
Furthermore, Jesus does not fit the criteria as being the male child. Compare
* The Male Child = Snatched up to God's throne before the dragon/Satan can kill him
* Jesus = Crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended to God's right hand
Remember the meaning of the word 'harpazo' which means to be snatched away, force suddenly exercised. In keeping with the context, Jesus was not snatched up before He was crucified.
There are three groups who are said will rule with an iron scepter or a rod of iron, depending on the translation.
1). Those who overcome within the church - Rev.2:26-27
2). The Male Child/144,000 - Rev.12:5-6
3). Jesus - Rev.19:15
“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Acts 2:30, 32-33,
Jesus is the one who was born in Israel , the son of man , ( man child) and then was taken to the throne of God. There’s no other and those who accept the truth and overcome they are the children of God
“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”
Revelation 3:21 KJV
Christ is already seated on his throne in his kingdom and all his people are with him . brother there has since the beginning been both heaven and earth. Both material and immaterial He is seated in the heavens and one day soon , this will happen
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:
and his name is called The Word of God.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:
and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LORDS.”
Revelation 19:11-16 KJV
That is the return of Christ we are promised , seen in a spiritual vision to convey important revelation about the gospel .
it’s all about the one message of God the father , Jesus Christ , and believers being filled with the Holy Ghost and being born again as the children of God waiting to enter into his heavenly kingdom when we pass from this world .
of course Christ will rule with this rod of iron
“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
Matthew 24:35
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:18-20
the word of Christ is binding accompanying the shedding of his blood that makes our covenant with God and his word is the very rod of iron that will bring this world to its knees utterly before he restores it for his people making all things new and fulfilling his promises in the gospel[/QUOTE]
* Not a real woman
* Not really pregnant
* Doesn't give literal birth
* Not a real Male Child
* Not a real dragon
* Not literal stars
Each of the above symbols represents a literal meaning
* The woman = the nation Israel
* Being pregnant and giving birth = represents the 144,000 Israelite believers who come out of (gives birth to) the unbelieving nation of Israel. The male child is a collective name representing the 144,000 who are said to be all males in Revelation 14:4.
Furthermore, Jesus does not fit the criteria as being the male child. Compare
* The Male Child = Snatched up to God's throne before the dragon/Satan can kill him
* Jesus = Crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended to God's right hand
Remember the meaning of the word 'harpazo' which means to be snatched away, force suddenly exercised. In keeping with the context, Jesus was not snatched up before He was crucified.
There are three groups who are said will rule with an iron scepter or a rod of iron, depending on the translation.
1). Those who overcome within the church - Rev.2:26-27
2). The Male Child/144,000 - Rev.12:5-6
3). Jesus - Rev.19:15
“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Acts 2:30, 32-33,
Jesus is the one who was born in Israel , the son of man , ( man child) and then was taken to the throne of God. There’s no other and those who accept the truth and overcome they are the children of God
“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”
Revelation 3:21 KJV
Christ is already seated on his throne in his kingdom and all his people are with him . brother there has since the beginning been both heaven and earth. Both material and immaterial He is seated in the heavens and one day soon , this will happen
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:
and his name is called The Word of God.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:
and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LORDS.”
Revelation 19:11-16 KJV
That is the return of Christ we are promised , seen in a spiritual vision to convey important revelation about the gospel .
it’s all about the one message of God the father , Jesus Christ , and believers being filled with the Holy Ghost and being born again as the children of God waiting to enter into his heavenly kingdom when we pass from this world .
of course Christ will rule with this rod of iron
“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
Matthew 24:35
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:18-20
the word of Christ is binding accompanying the shedding of his blood that makes our covenant with God and his word is the very rod of iron that will bring this world to its knees utterly before he restores it for his people making all things new and fulfilling his promises in the gospel[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
wow lol I guess I’m one of those common knee jerk reaction folks who believes that God has always been telling the story about Jesus being born living teaching dying and being raised from the dead and then being taken up to Gods throne to rule his eternal
Kingdom
I gotta stick to What makes sense according to scripture , of belief is a
Knee jerk I’m betting my life
On it 😃
try these to identify the male
Child
“Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.”
Luke 22:69 KJV
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19
“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Acts 2:30, 32-33, 36
or maybe prophecy
“Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
Psalms 2:6-9, 12 KJV
“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
Revelation 12:5
Of all things in scripture we could debate this one is not one that needs to be figured out the entirety of scripture witnesses of the same thing
“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?”
Hebrews 1:3, 8, 13 KJV
sometimes we out-think scripture instead of learning from what’s so plain
wow lol I guess I’m one of those common knee jerk reaction folks who believes that God has always been telling the story about Jesus being born living teaching dying and being raised from the dead and then being taken up to Gods throne to rule his eternal
Kingdom
I gotta stick to What makes sense according to scripture , of belief is a
Knee jerk I’m betting my life
On it 😃
try these to identify the male
Child
“Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.”
Luke 22:69 KJV
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19
“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Acts 2:30, 32-33, 36
or maybe prophecy
“Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
Psalms 2:6-9, 12 KJV
“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
Revelation 12:5
Of all things in scripture we could debate this one is not one that needs to be figured out the entirety of scripture witnesses of the same thing
“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?”
Hebrews 1:3, 8, 13 KJV
sometimes we out-think scripture instead of learning from what’s so plain
No. Proper interpretation of Scripture includes apprehending the time place identity and mindset of the writer. Furthermore one will never understand the book of Revelation unless you understand the OT and the Hebrew mindset properly. It is force fitting Western/Greek thinking into what has already been written by Hebrews that is the problem not the other way around.