Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[Pilgrimshope]

Absolutely correct. Daniel chapter 12:13 seems to indicate that the OT saints will be resurrected just after the end of the tribulation period.

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭


“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭

resurrection , to be made alive from death

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Also Moses appears alive in the gospel , Lazarus and the young maiden of 12 are resurrected , the thief on the cross is promised life the same day it’s worth considering that at least “many “ ot saints have already risen. This not a guess but clearly written there in scripture

 

[Truth7t7]

You apparently don't even know your own doctrine very well since Amillennialism teaches that the Millennium is happening right now on the Earth. Amillennialism is wrong about it happening now but at least it understands a Millennium does in fact happen on the Earth.

Correction:

That seen in Rev 20:1-6 is taking place now in the Lords spiritual realm, and will cease at the future second coming, 1,000 years isn't literal, but symbolic of no literal time in the Lords spiritual realm, just as 2 Peter 3:8 teaches, one day is a thousand years, not literal earthly time

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I'll just leave this here for now...


1) 1 Corinthians 15:23 [re: resurrection] - [note: there is a question as to its exact wording], compare:

lsv-
"and EACH [G1538 - a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his proper ORDER [/RANK - G5001]: Christ, a first-fruit, afterward those who are the Christ’s in His coming"



ylt -
"and EACH [G1538 - a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his proper ORDER [/RANK - G5001], a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence [/coming]"


[ ^ no definite article ('the') with either the word "Christ" or "firstfruit" ^ ]



2) on the point: there is MORE THAN ONE 'FIRSTFRUIT' (see James 1:18 - 'a KIND [SINGULAR] of firstfruit [SINGULAR]' or 'A CERTAIN [SINGULAR] FIRSTFRUIT [SINGULAR]'... and some versions have the word "firstfruit" in 2Th2:13 also [with which I tend to agree should be there])...


... there is what is called "FIRST [singular] of the firstfruits [plural]" (recall, there is more than one firstfruit... Again, Lev23 shows two distinct ones, regarding two distinct harvests...in vv.10-12 and in v.17)... Consider the following:


Exo 23:19 -
"The first [singular] of the firstfruits [plural] of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk."


Exo 34:26 -
"The first [singular] of the firstfruits [plural] of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk."

__________

Eze 44:30 -
"And the first [singular] of all the firstfruits [plural] of all things, and every oblation of all, of every sort of your oblations, shall be the priest's: ye shall also give unto the priest the first of your dough, that he may cause the blessing to rest in thine house."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.
If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written
(Four hundred and ninety years), simple
Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Since, according to your viewpoint, Daniel had no problem using the terms "day/days" and "year/years"... tell us, what did he mean by the following expression (which I've bolded and underlined, below)??


Daniel 4:16 -

Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.


Daniel 4:23 -

And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;


Daniel 4:25 -

That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.


Daniel 4:32 -

And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.



What duration of time was that ^ , according to you (and what you are putting forth)?

...IOW, it doesn't state either "days" or "years," as you said it should, because (as you said) Daniel was perfectly capable of it... yet it doesn't say EITHER of those words, here.

 

[Absolutely]

No, scripture says there are two resurrections:

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

First resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

First resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"


What we learn from both verses is that there are two resurrections. One resurrection is to life and the other resurrection is to damnation and contempt.

And yet first resurrection has firstfruits.
.....which automatically leads to other parts of the first.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are plenty of good reasons to believe that there could be gaps in the genealogies and this pushes creation back even further.

As I said, let's not go down that path. This isn't the thread for that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
please explain how Rev 14 refutes my view. And your last statement is patently false. I don't have what you falsely claim.

But go ahead and explain yourself please.

Rev 14 has Jesus sitting on a cloud and harvesting ripe fruit from the earth during the trib.

That is simply referencing that the Tribulation is occurring. What do you think "harvesting ripe fruit" refers to?

You say the resurrection is after those living are gathered.

NO NO NO. Please pay attention. I NEVER said that. 1 Thess 4 is very clear. The dead are resurrected, and THEN the living receive their changed bodies, which are exactly like the resurrected bodies of the dead saints.

1 thes 4 refutes the postrib resurrection.

The ONLY way it would is IF IF IF the text said that Jesus takes all believers back up to heaven. But it doesn't. No verse does.

The dead rise First.

Of course. I've NEVER said otherwise.

This is about 5 times I explained it and you ignored it.

No, I've had to correct your error about 5 times. Hopefully you've gotten it this time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I already did
You can not have the living PRECEDE the dead in Christ.

I don't have that. You just continue to misread or maybe misunderstand what I have said. 1 Thess 4 is very clear that the dead in Christ will rise first. Did you get that?

Your doctrine does just that

You couldn't be more wrong.

Rev 14 forever ruins any hope you have for the church to go through the gt.

Impossible.

"hope"?? Where do you get that notion? I'm not hoping for that. I simply believe what the Bible says. Jesus will REMAIN in heaven until the times of the restoration, as Acts 3:21 says.

And please don't tell me that the beginning of the Trib is any kind of "restoration". The Trib precedes the restoration. The restoration begins when Jesus returns at the end of the Trib when He ends the battle of Armaggedon.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, that is wrong. There are TWO future resurrections.

Please describe each of these resurrections, and provide Scripture that will back up your view.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

Rev 20-21 refutes your claim. Easily and clearly.

 

[cv5]

Since, according to your viewpoint, Daniel had no problem using the terms "day/days" and "year/years"... tell us, what did he mean by the following expression (which I've bolded and underlined, below)??


Daniel 4:16 -

Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.


Daniel 4:23 -

And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;


Daniel 4:25 -

That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.


Daniel 4:32 -

And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.



What duration of time was that ^ , according to you (and what you are putting forth)?

...IOW, it doesn't state either "days" or "years," as you said it should, because (as you said) Daniel was perfectly capable of it... yet it doesn't say EITHER of those words, here.

Amen brother. The context of Daniel ch 9 is given in the first few verses. Daniel is pondering the 70 years. Not days.......years.

 

[cv5]

Does that include the majority of Jews that are adherents of the (Kabbalah) Occult and the (Talmud) traditional Rabbinical teachings, full of filth concerning Jesus Christ and Gentiles (Goyim)?

So much for your claims of a person being chosen, based upon race or ethnic heritage!

Maybe not. But it DOES include the original messianic Jews the 12 apostles and the apostle Paul, Jesus half-brother James etc. And ALL of the recipients of the day of Pentecost Holy Spirit.

You know.........the pillars of the Church. Whose names will be emblazoned for all eternity on the foundations of New Jerusalem Rev 21:1.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Does that include the majority of Jews that are adherents of the (Kabbalah) Occult and the (Talmud) traditional Rabbinical teachings, full of filth concerning Jesus Christ and Gentiles (Goyim)?

So much for your claims of a person being chosen, based upon race or ethnic heritage!

What is it about God's repeated promises to "cleanse them of their idols" that you don't like?
Is God a liar?

What is it about a Gentile church that has been given a free gift of salvation and the power of The Holy Spirit that makes you believe we have performed so much better than them? We have not. Jesus is righteous. Without him we are not.

The time of God's elect people will come as promised.
God will use Israel to prove himself Holy in the eyes of the world. Thus says The Lord. .
They are far from perfect but don't be caught churning up hatred against them.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four hundred and ninety years), simple

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weekswere fulfilled.

Have you ever heard of a decade?

 

[GaryA]

2 Peter 3:8 below is showing nothing more than there is no physical earthly time in the Lords eternal spiritual realm, Revelation 20:1-6 is 100% in this spiritual realm of no literal time

Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ, 100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Guess again...

 

[GaryA]

There is "one" future resurrection of "all" on the last day, where the end result is in two different places.

It's all yours, not gonna argue over the minor issue concerning "the last day" and resurrection of "All"

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I will agree that this is referring to the 'last' or 'final' resurrection before Judgment Day.

The first group resurrects before the thousand years begins and the second/last group resurrects after the end of the thousand years.

That passage is referring to the 'after the end' group.

 

[Truth7t7]

Have you ever heard of a decade?

Do you believe if Daniel's 70 weeks really meant 490 years, he would have written (Four Hundred Ninety Years) that's a no brainer

Daniel wrote (Seventy Weeks) and that's exactly what it will be, future events unfulfilled.

 

[Truth7t7]

What is it about God's repeated promises to "cleanse them of their idols" that you don't like?
Is God a liar?

What is it about a Gentile church that has been given a free gift of salvation and the power of The Holy Spirit that makes you believe we have performed so much better than them? We have not. Jesus is righteous. Without him we are not.

The time of God's elect people will come as promised.
God will use Israel to prove himself Holy in the eyes of the world. Thus says The Lord. .
They are far from perfect but don't be caught churning up hatred against them.

Your claim of myself churning up hatred is 100% (False) your sounding like a CNN, MSNBC anchor, using the cancel culture buzzwords, racist, misogynist, etc

Only the (Remnant) chosen Jew will be saved and (Added) to the Church, the 1/3, the rest will die (Fact)

Zechariah 13:8-9KJV
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

 

[Truth7t7]

Guess again...

No guessing whatsoever, perhaps you can help me find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist), A 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Is A Man Made Fairy Tale (Fact)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time (Fact)

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Just a few thoughts to CONSIDER:


Acts 15 [ylt] -

13 and after they are silent, James answered, saying, ‘Men, brethren, hearken to me; 14 Simeon did declare how at first God did look after to take out of the nations a people for His name, 15 and to this agree the words of the prophets, as it hath been written:

16 After these things I will turn back, and I will build again the tabernacle of David, that is fallen down, and its ruins I will build again, and will set it upright —

17 that the residue of men may seek after the Lord [<--wouldn't you say this refers to BEFORE His "RETURN" to the earth?], and all the nations, upon whom My name hath been called, saith the Lord, who is doing all these things.

18 ‘Known from the ages to God are all His works...'

[Amplified Bible - '18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO HAS BEEN MAKING THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO [/from the age]'. (i.e. via the OT prophets and prophecies--same as Acts 3:21 speaks to)]


What do you believe v.16's "AFTER THESE THINGS" is referring to?



[notes point back to its connection with-->] Amos 9:11-12 -

A Promise of Restoration
(Acts 15:5–21)

11 “In that day I will restore [*H6965]
the fallen tent of David.
I will repair its gaps, restore [*H6965] its ruins,
and rebuild it as in the days of old,
12 that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations that bear My name,”d
declares the LORD, who will do this.
13 “Behold, the days are coming,”
declares the LORD,
“when the plowman will overtake the reaper
and the treader of grapes, the sower of seed.
The mountains will drip with sweet wine,
with which all the hills will flow.
14 I will restore [H7725] My people Israel from captivity;e
they will rebuild and inhabit the ruined cities.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will firmly plant them in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land that I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.


[*H6965 - Compare with Hosea 5:14-6:3, v.2's "IN the third day He will raise us up [H6965]" and the passage goes on to say, v.3, "Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: His going forth is prepared as the morning; and He shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter [/spring] rain UNTO THE EARTH" (where this passage ALSO uses the H2421 word, in connection with this); and Isaiah 26:15-21 (notice its timing clues), where v.19 uses this H6965 word "thy dead men shall live... SHALL THEY ARISE [H6965]..." (not speaking of a bodily/physical resurrection here; and which passage ALSO uses the H2421 word in connection with this); and Daniel 12:1-4[10] (second half of trib yrs context; where this passage, also not speaking of a bodily/physical resurrection, ALSO uses the H2421 word in connection with this)... ALL pertaining to Israel's future (in the same manner that Rom11:15 speaks of it, LIKENING this to a "resurrection"[!]--as well as Rom11:25-29, and Rom9:26/Hos1:10-11 (+2:23a-only; whereas 2:23b speaks of the Gentiles, like Rom9:25 does... by contrast); and John 6:39 (distinct from v.40 re: PERSONS) re: "IN the last day" (recall that "IN THE NIGHT" ['dark'/'darkness'/'sundown'] is the FIRST ASPECT of an entire "day"--esp as it pertains to ISRAEL)... "raise up" THINGS in v.39 ("things" pertaining to His "throne / governance / judging / etc" [not to mention the people to whom these promises particularly pertained, see Acts 1:6 ["restore again"], which question only concerned its TIMING, not its NATURE])]

So, in view of the above passages, "the TIMES OF restoration..." (re: the things having been spoken by God via the OT prophets / prophecies--Acts 3:21--not things that had yet to be spoken [by that point] via the NT "apostles and prophets" )... "the TIMES of restoration" appears to commence in/during/within the short time leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 [yet FOLLOWING "our Rapture"] when thereafter [at the MK point] the full-fruition of the thing comes into play... I am one that believes Israel comes to faith BEFORE His return to the earth [AT WHICH POINT it is TOO LATE!] (and it is THEY who "lead the charge" in DOING the "INVITING" *during* the trib yrs, such as in Matt24:14 / Matt22:9-14 / Rev19:9 / etc--the RESULTS shown in Rev7:9,14, Matt25:31-48 [vv.40,45 BEING these "INVITERS" themselves], Rev19:9 and the 8-10 "BLESSED" passages relating to this, as well as Matt13:24,47-48 "net cast into the SEA, and gathered OF EVERY KIND"... etc etc). Recall that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 [i.e. SEALS onward] speaks of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period (not things which would transpire over some 2000 yrs, nor even 100 years prior... but the "ONE WEEK / 7 YEARS" which is part of what the OT PROPHECY in Daniel said is "DETERMINED UPON" Israel [people of] & Jerusalem... and ONE of those "purposes" is to bring Israel into the New Covenant, turning them to their Messiah [Jesus Christ] BEFORE His ARRIVAL [Rev19]).