Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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Jul 23, 2018
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""Every single pre-trib rapture Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurist has argued for decades that the "taken/left" verses refer to the "secret rapture" 7 years before the Second Coming, but you say they're all barking up the wrong tree? I've got some bad news for you - you need to find a new tree too :)""

Maybe re read mat 24.

No brainier it is indeed saying what you mock and call a lie.

You got it COMPLETELY backwards
 
Jul 23, 2018
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That verse is not suggesting anyone is removed from the world. This is how it should be understood:

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

People will be kept from the temptations and trials of the Great Tribulation while still being in this world.
Now factor in the rapture verses.
And the fact all die or take the mark

And that the gathering of rev 14 somehow in your bible is BEFORE the dead in Christ are risen in the rapture.

You guys need only read rev 14.
That all by itself gets you delivered from such blatant error.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Yep

There are most likely perks for turning in your neighbor and family members
I don't think people understand the FINALITY of the entire AC/ mark/ beheading dynamic.

It says " power is given the AC to overcome the saints"

It says "ALL TAKE THE MARK"

The rapture and subsequent beheading of believers is ABSOLUTE.
No believers are left.
The Jews are ushered to safety.

It is COMPLETE TAKEOVER by the devil.

The flood.

Jesus uses the flood.
Only the Jews are ushered to protection.

The church age ends at the rapture.

The time of the Gentile is over.
The time of the Jew is beginning.
Both at the rapture.

Postrib rapture is so off...so very very off...that it actually muddies up the very purpose of it.

Postrib rapture is so abstract and rediculous that it has zero purpose.
None.
A snatching up to mount horses in the sky with baloney sandwiches to go right back down to earth?

That is the groom in mat 25 ????????

No purpose
No harmony
No cigar
 
Jan 31, 2021
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You did express that the church will experience the plagues by saying ' I do believe that the church will go through the Trib.'
Well, apparently you don't discern the difference between experiencing God's wrath and being on when God pours out His wrath.

Let's not confuse the issue. I'm talking about the church who are living by faith and are ready when the Lord appears.
Yes, I agree. Let's NOT confuse the issue. Jesus Christ comes back to earth ONCE more. It's called the SECOND Advent, or SECOND Coming. And that will happen at the end of the Tribulation. It will be the end of the Trib because Jesus ends it himself.

They will be removed from the earth prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath.
This is just an opinion. What verse or verses actually say any of this?

Many attempt to use that scripture as the reason why the church cannot be gathered, but it is not restricting Christ from gathering His church. The Lord is not under house arrest so that He cannot leave heaven!
I never said the "church cannot be gathered". Of course it will. When He comes at the Second Advent, with all the dead saints from heaven. Matt 24 says exactly that.

But Acts 3:21 is clear in the Greek. In fact, a number of English translations have "remain in heaven" instead of "receive".

The Greek word is dechomai.

From https://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/word_studies/greek/dechomai.pdf
a. to receive
Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised (page 88):
  1. to receive into and retain, contain
  2. met. To receive by the hearing, learn, acquire a knowledge of
  3. to receive, admit, grant access to, receive kindly, welcome
  4. to receive in hospitality, entertain
  5. to bear with, bear patiently
  6. met. To receive, approve, assent to
  7. to admit and by implication to embrace, follow

I have this lexicon, but the original, not the "revised". And "dechomai" is found on page 88 in my book. What this website didn't include, but is in my lexicon, is that the meaning found in 2. is associated with Acts 3:21.

So I have it on scholarly authority what Acts 3:21 is saying. It is saying that Jesus STAYS/REMAINS in heaven until the time of restoration.

There is a U-turn.
Then prove it with Scripture. You need evidence from the Bible, not just a bunch of opinons from a bunch of people. I was raised believing in a pre-trib rapture, but when I actually began to study like the Bereans in Acts 17:11, I found that there is NO evidence of any U-turn in the Bible.

The event of the gathering of the church is a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.
Opinion. Give me Scripture please.

People who attempt to put the church as being on the earth during the time of God's wrath don't understand the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.[/QUOTE ]
Nonsense. Of course I do. It'll be hell on earth.

There will be no ark to get on and no small city to run to, because Jesus said, the plagues of wrath are going to come upon the whole inhabited world.
Yep. And God's 10 plagues came upon the whole of Egypt, but the Jews were spared the plagues. Goshen is part of Egypt. So your opinion still has no support.

I can see that you are repeating a known teaching, because I've debated it many times before.
That's nice. It's a "known teaching" because it is supported from Scripture. Unlike the opinion about Jesus making U-turns.

The fact is that, when we became believers, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Therefore, we are not appointed to suffer any wrath, whether the wrath that will becoming upon the earth leading up to the Lord's returns nor the final punishment which is the lake of fire.
Paul's words in 1 Thess 5 about "not appointed to suffer wrath" wasn't about "any wrath" as you have ADDED, but was specifically contasting between salvation and the lake of fire. It's clear in the verse.

Believers are not appointed to suffer any of it.
When "it" only refers to the lake of fire, you are correct.

True believer in the church are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief," which means that we will not remain on the earth during that time of God's wrath.
This is twisting Scripture.

And there isn't any verse that says that Jesus resurrects/raptures all dead and living believers and takes them back to heaven.
Right. That's the point. No U-turns.

Rev.20:4-6 is the resurrection of the great tribulation saints, not the church.
Oh, let's be clear here. John described this resurrection as the FIRST resurrection. If there was a previous resurrection, oh, say, about 7 years prior, then this one CANNOT be called the FIRST one. Very simple. You are simply forcing words to mean what they don't mean.

Notice that this resurrection only mentions a resurrection of the dead, but does not mention the living being changed and caught up. This is because the first resurrection has phases to it.
Doesn't matter. It's still the FIRST resurrection. Please don't force words to mean what they don't mean.

* Jesus the first fruits

* The church at the Lord's appearing (dead resurrecting and the living being changed and caught up)

* The 144,000/Male Child (caught up to God's throne)

* The two witnesses

* The great tribulation saints (After the Lord returns to the earth to end the age)

All of the above fall under the first resurrection, which is in opposition to the resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years.
Yes, they do. And after Christ, all of the above are resurrected/changed at the same time.

The plain wording of 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that "those who belong to Him" are all grouped together. Not separate resurrections, as you presume.

In addition to all of this, the church as the bride, is already shown to be in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb during the time of God's wrath, where she will receive her fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14, they are seen following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen that the bride received at the wedding.
Just like 1 Cor 15:32, Rev 19 is just as clear. The wording indicates what is ABOUT TO HAPPEN, not what happened 7 years prior.

In further support that the church returns with the Lord, we have the following:

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb (Armageddon), but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Sure. All the Church that have previously died. Yes, they will be in heaven and will come with Christ when He appears at the SECOND Advent.

"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” - Jude 14
Yep. Nothing about any U-turn.

In John 14:1-3, Jesus said that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us there and that He would come back to get us to take us those places, that where He is we may be also.
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Please read these words carefully, in v.3: "I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am". It says NOTHING about going back to heaven. That's speculation or presumption.

Also, the words "I will come back" were said BEFORE Jesus died and rose again. He was referring to " coming back to heaven", obviously, since that's where He was going after His ascension.

Still nothing about a U-turn.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Phoneman-777 said:
Can't God shield a church in the midst of tribulation as He shielded Israel when the 7 last plagues fell in Egypt or like He shielded the 3 Hebrews in the fiery furnace or Daniel in the lion's den or Israel in the Red Sea which swallowed up the Egyptian army?

Of course He can.
Sure He could, but it would be a full time job, because of the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
Wow. So there are some jobs that are kinda tough for God to accomplish. Do you not understand what omnipotent means?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
John wasn't addressing believers at all in Rev 1-3. The 7 churches were believers. If he thought some of the churches had unbelievers in them, he would have given them the gospel, NOT admonitions to service.
"he thought"???? The apostle John is expressing his own opinions here?
The seven Churches (and churches today) did not have unbelievers in them?

Such assertions betray tremendous ignorance.
Well, excuse me. I typo has been commited. Of course John was addressing ONLY believers in Rev 1-3. And I did make that clear in the second sentence.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Look at the postrib rapture replies.

Do they ever debate rapture verses?

No they do not.

Look at the last 2 days of replies after I Pointed out their doctrine OMITS rapture verses.
Did any include them ?

Nope.
They only adhere to tired erroneous postrib rapture workbook that tell them pretrib is wrong.

We are told we are wrong with no rapture verses to back them up.

Rapture verse omission is the heart of their defense.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Thanks Ahwatukee.......missed it for some reason. Slowing down in my old age I guess.

Rev 3:10
Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you OUT OF the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

https://biblehub.com/greek/1537.htm
God kept Israel out of the "hour of trial" of the 10 plagues in Egypt, all the while living IN Egypt.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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It is the post-trib position that is so thoroughly shot full of errors and incongruities so as to be preposterous.
It is your presumption and opinion that is preposterous.

You have zero verses about Jesus resurrecting/rapturing believers and making a U-turn back to heaven.

The pre-trib position however is tight as a drum.
More preposterous opinion.

It matches all of the relevant Scriptures perfectly.
In FACT, all of the so-called pre-trib rapture verses/passages fit ALL of the Second Coming verses perfectly.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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""Now, which of the "left behind" folks are goingto be taken by surprise by the Second Coming when they'll be surrounded by""

The ones left behind are either beheaded or take the mark.

If they KNEW THAT they would have changed their lives to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Psssst....read mat 25.

Oil is the game changer. Nothing else was different in the parable. Those with more oil went...those lacking stayed.

Hands down
Pretrib rapture.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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""Please don’t get hung up in the whole “nuclear war that kills 1/3 of mankind” silliness. Revelation is SYMBOLIC. If people want to know what trees and grass and the other symbols represent, go back to the OT and let the Bible interpret itself.""

Nope
What is symbolic is symbolic.
What is literal is literal
And your opinion is your opinion.

To claim "Revelation is symbolic" only allows the opinionator to make up whatever they want.

Remember, John observed the future from his 1st Century perspective and orientation. How would you expect someone from a pre-scientific pre-industrialized world to describe things from a scientific and industrialized world??
 
Jan 31, 2021
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They are NOT OVERCOMERS.

An OVERCOMER Is one who has overcome the world,sin, and the devil.

The believer in addiction or love of this world or a glutton or idolitry etc is saved but no crowns....and not an OVERCOMER.

Paul says they are saved but their works are burnt up.
The Bible uses the word "overcomer" in 2 ways. Discernment makes the distinction.

In Rev, to the churches, an overcomer is a mature believer who has overcome the world, sin and the devil.

But, in 1 John 5-
4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

In this context, an "overcomer" is a believer, regardless of spiritual growth.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Look at the postrib rapture replies.

Do they ever debate rapture verses?

No they do not.
What a blatant untruth. Of course I have. I point out in EVERY such verse that there is NO mention of a U-turn back to heaven.

And NONE of the pre-tribbers (of which I was one) can provide any U-turn verse.

Look at the last 2 days of replies after I Pointed out their doctrine OMITS rapture verses.
Did any include them ?
Wow. No one "omits" pre-trib rapture verses. There are NONE. You think there are, but none of them say anything about going up to heaven (U-turn), so they AREN'T pre-trib verses anyway. Your argument is specious.

Rapture verse omission is the heart of their defense.
No. The heart of the biblical doctrine is:

1. Acts 3:21 says in the Greek that Jesus REMAINS/STAYS in heaven "until the times of restoration".
2. Rev 20 speaks of the resurrection AFTER the Trib as the FIRST resurrection. There are NO 2 "first" resurrections. That is silly.
3. There are ZERO verses that say Jesus resurrects/raptures believers and takes them back to heaven.

No pre-tribber can refute any of this.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Every single pre-trib rapture Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurist has argued for decades that the "taken/left" verses refer to the "secret rapture" 7 years before the Second Coming, but you say they're all barking up the wrong tree? I've got some bad news for you - you need to find a new tree too :)

Because you claim the "knew not until" part of Jesus' Flood comparison applies to the Second Coming, but if there's a "secret rapture" accompanied by all that stuff about crashing planes and cars and empty clothes where the saints disappeared, how the flip can there be anyone at the Second Coming who "knew not" about what was coming? They've had 7 flippin years to hear about it!

Seriously, what will it take before you guys are honest enough to admit that Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism has too many plot holes and warrants taking a good long hard look at Protestant Historicism? :)
You do realize that the rapture could occur at any moment? You do understand Daniel 70th week is inaugurated by the revealing of the man of sin which only occurs (more or less immediately) after the rapture event correct?

Well think of it this way: The analogy being drawn here is the flood judgement being the same as seven years of wrath. It is the seven years of wrath that could occur at any moment preceded by of course the rapture. It is consequential that the second coming is exactly 84 months after the beginning of wrath.

There is no conflict with this analogy it fits perfectly.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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And God kept Enoch [ONE MAN] entirely out of the "hour of trial" [ / the deluge / flood judgment], too... ;)
Indeed Enoch was not post-flood or mid-food he was pre-flood.
The tradition is that he was was born on Pentecost and was raptured on his birthday.
 

cv5

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This is what we know: The faithless Antediluvians who had zero evidence to believe Noah "knew not until" they were taken away, which means they were totally taken by surprise.

Now, which of the "left behind" folks are goingto be taken by surprise by the Second Coming when they'll be surrounded by
The churches, seals, and trumpets are parallel prophecies which are given while our High Priest is yet in the Holy Place...which is BEFORE He enters the Most Holy Place to cleanse the Sanctuary...which both the symbolic prophecies of the 70 Weeks and the 2300 Days prove that Jesus will cleanse the Sanctuary 2300 years after “the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem which Artaxerxes decreed in 457 B.C.

So, prophecies which are given while Jesus is in the Holy Place CANNOT be future - however, the prophecy of the 7 Last Plagues is given while Jesus IS in the Most Holy Place, so why are you lumping them together when Scripture clearly says they are separate.

Please don’t get hung up in the whole “nuclear war that kills 1/3 of mankind” silliness. Revelation is SYMBOLIC. If people want to know what trees and grass and the other symbols represent, go back to the OT and let the Bible interpret itself.
The antediluvians were not taken by surprise. The surprise was that Noah was correct. The surprise was that they missed the boat. The entire world had a 600 foot barge staring them in their face. Every single person on the planet new of Noah's plans and his building project. And many many years of preaching to go along with it. Don't forget they had Enoch preaching also. No, they simply ignored Noah, the ark and the preaching.

The same can be said to people today. The gospel is being preached to the four corners of the world. Practically everyone in the world knows of Jesus Messiah. So why hasn't the entire world repented and converted?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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There's a whole lot more in the Bible than just the truth about Jesus' Second Advent.


Uh, no. No one "ensures their own salvation". That was taken care of completely by Jesus alone. Salvation is a free gift. All you can do is receive it on the basis of trust alone in Christ alone.

Nope. Salvation is guaranteed by Jesus Christ. There is no work involved on our part. He did all the work. Amen
Once the tribulation begins, in the age to come, You try taking the mark of the beast and tell the angel in revelation 14, that Jesus did all the work for your salvation.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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God kept Israel out of the "hour of trial" of the 10 plagues in Egypt, all the while living IN Egypt.
No not really. They were protected yes, nevertheless smack dab in the middle of the judgments. They were literally surrounded by then. They were eyewitnesses to it. They were geographically in proximity to them.

Not so with the rapture. We are taken OUT OF the proximity the observation the perception of any wrath. In fact we are in heaven singing songs of praise while all of this is going on.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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What a blatant untruth. Of course I have. I point out in EVERY such verse that there is NO mention of a U-turn back to heaven.

And NONE of the pre-tribbers (of which I was one) can provide any U-turn verse.


Wow. No one "omits" pre-trib rapture verses. There are NONE. You think there are, but none of them say anything about going up to heaven (U-turn), so they AREN'T pre-trib verses anyway. Your argument is specious.


No. The heart of the biblical doctrine is:

1. Acts 3:21 says in the Greek that Jesus REMAINS/STAYS in heaven "until the times of restoration".
2. Rev 20 speaks of the resurrection AFTER the Trib as the FIRST resurrection. There are NO 2 "first" resurrections. That is silly.
3. There are ZERO verses that say Jesus resurrects/raptures believers and takes them back to heaven.

No pre-tribber can refute any of this.
Yes we can.......and we already have. On many occasions.