Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
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FreeGrace2 said:
And ch 4 says nothing about any U-turn back to heaven.
Here's the problem. Pre-tribbers routinely use the 1 Thess passage as a rapture passage. Yet, there is NOTHING there about returning to heaven.
So, where do you learn that Jesus returns to heaven with all the believers? All I've seen thus far is conjecture and construct.
?
And ch 4 says nothing about any U-turn back to heaven.
Here's the problem. Pre-tribbers routinely use the 1 Thess passage as a rapture passage. Yet, there is NOTHING there about returning to heaven.
So, where do you learn that Jesus returns to heaven with all the believers? All I've seen thus far is conjecture and construct.
[similar to what Gen2:22 said and Eph5:27
"PRESENT to Himself" (also 2Cor11:2 "PRESENT")]
"PRESENT to Himself" (also 2Cor11:2 "PRESENT")]
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Well, 1Th4 is only speaking of the "caught up / caught away / snatch / harpazo / harpagēsometha / rapture / rapier [G726]" item (and the "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with / INDENTIFIED-with] Him" aspects)... not so much its TIMING in relation to other items.
That's where 2Th2 comes in (especially).
But, people very often mis-define words / terms / phrases... connect (as one) entirely distinct items... incorporate TWO items as being [said to be "FIRST"] rather than the ONE item that is said to be... routinely "skip back OVER and PAST" verse 2 [as if it weren't even there!] to ascertain what v.3A's 'that day' is speaking of (grammatical faux pas to put it gracefully, lol)... ignore the fact that "the day of the Lord" (v.2) and "IN THAT DAY" (also in the wider context) are speaking of the SAME [future] TIME-PERIOD just like they are used in such a way [together] in the OT prophecies... and ignore "how" Paul had already said it will "ARRIVE" (just like Jesus had described when He spoke of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS"--not at the END of all that + more!)... etc...
Then, when many of us "pre-tribbers" try to spell out what Paul is conveying here (in vv.1-3 esp), the listener/poster will spit back something that doesn't even resemble what we've said (in their supposedly "repeating-back-to-me-what-you-think-I'm-saying-of-it")... things like "the rapture can't happen till the rapture takes place". Not at all what I've / we've said... but is a result of not being able to wrench the faulty definitions out of the brain even for a minute to "try on for size" the explanation being given.
If you could see my "explanations" on that passage (as they are... and I think they are in those three linked posts), then you could see why I am saying "we will not be here present on the earth for the ARRIVAL of the DOTL earthly time-period when the man of sin WILL be present--for the whole 7 years!"
So... do you think I would follow up that ^ sentence by saying:
1) we'll hang up in the clouds for all 7 years ( ) ; OR
2) we're in the Rev5:9 wording saying "hast redeemed US" (in that scene IN HEAVEN, b/f the FIRST SEAL is opened--when Jesus will 'STAND to JUDGE' [btw, "present" = "from para and histémi "... from that last post...])" ?
That's where 2Th2 comes in (especially).
But, people very often mis-define words / terms / phrases... connect (as one) entirely distinct items... incorporate TWO items as being [said to be "FIRST"] rather than the ONE item that is said to be... routinely "skip back OVER and PAST" verse 2 [as if it weren't even there!] to ascertain what v.3A's 'that day' is speaking of (grammatical faux pas
to put it gracefully, lol)... ignore the fact that "the day of the Lord" (v.2) and "IN THAT DAY" (also in the wider context) are speaking of the SAME [future] TIME-PERIOD just like they are used in such a way [together] in the OT prophecies... and ignore "how" Paul had already said it will "ARRIVE" (just like Jesus had described when He spoke of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS"--not at the END of all that + more!)... etc...Then, when many of us "pre-tribbers" try to spell out what Paul is conveying here (in vv.1-3 esp), the listener/poster will spit back something that doesn't even resemble what we've said (in their supposedly "repeating-back-to-me-what-you-think-I'm-saying-of-it")... things like "the rapture can't happen till the rapture takes place". Not at all what I've / we've said... but is a result of not being able to wrench the faulty definitions out of the brain even for a minute to "try on for size" the explanation being given.
If you could see my "explanations" on that passage (as they are... and I think they are in those three linked posts), then you could see why I am saying "we will not be here present on the earth for the ARRIVAL of the DOTL earthly time-period when the man of sin WILL be present--for the whole 7 years!"
So... do you think I would follow up that ^ sentence by saying:
1) we'll hang up in the clouds for all 7 years (
) ; OR2) we're in the Rev5:9 wording saying "hast redeemed US" (in that scene IN HEAVEN, b/f the FIRST SEAL is opened--when Jesus will 'STAND to JUDGE' [btw, "present" = "from para and histémi "... from that last post...])" ?
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[G646 - apostasia / apostasis - 2Th2:3]
[quoting old post]
Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon (1889) -
ἀποστασία late form of ἀπόστασις
[this ^ says: "apostasia late form for apostasis" (i.e. the SAME WORD)]
Then when you go to the entry for "apostasis" (it says under that entry):
ἀπόστασις ἀφίσταμαι
a standing away from, and so,
1.a defection, revolt, ἀπό τινος or τινος Hdt., Thuc.; πρός τινα Thuc.
2.departure from, βίου Eur.
3.distance, interval, Plat.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=a)po/stasis
[end quoting]
____________
The Greeks had a different word for "to fall" - "pipto".
[then see my post again about the 8x (out of 9x) definition for the word "STASIS / STASIN" (used in Heb9:8-9a), and then note that 9th occurrence (as well as its "context" saying, "which is A PARABLE for the present time")]
[quoting old post]
Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon (1889) -
ἀποστασία late form of ἀπόστασις
[this ^ says: "apostasia late form for apostasis" (i.e. the SAME WORD)]
Then when you go to the entry for "apostasis" (it says under that entry):
ἀπόστασις ἀφίσταμαι
a standing away from, and so,
1.a defection, revolt, ἀπό τινος or τινος Hdt., Thuc.; πρός τινα Thuc.
2.departure from, βίου Eur.
3.distance, interval, Plat.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=a)po/stasis
[end quoting]
____________
The Greeks had a different word for "to fall" - "pipto".
[then see my post again about the 8x (out of 9x) definition for the word "STASIS / STASIN" (used in Heb9:8-9a), and then note that 9th occurrence (as well as its "context" saying, "which is A PARABLE for the present time")]
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Think of it this way: Jesus draws the analogy between the flood and the time of the 70th week Tribulation. There are no preceding signs for either. Only preaching and witnessing.
What you fail to comprehend is that the time of the Tribulation is coming as a thief. Once it begins Jesus is coming 84 months later precisely.
That's how you deal with the concept of coming as a thief. Many times the GT and SC are spoken about as a total package. Because they are.......
By the way.......taking that perspective eliminates enormous amounts of supposed paradoxes and conflicts. In reality they do not exist.
What you fail to comprehend is that the time of the Tribulation is coming as a thief. Once it begins Jesus is coming 84 months later precisely.
That's how you deal with the concept of coming as a thief. Many times the GT and SC are spoken about as a total package. Because they are.......
By the way.......taking that perspective eliminates enormous amounts of supposed paradoxes and conflicts. In reality they do not exist.
To answer your question, kindly ask yourself the following questions:
1. Is the Lord Jesus Christ presently in Heaven seated at the right hand of the Father? ABSOLUTELY
2. Did Christ promise in John 14:1-3 to come again and receive His people unto Himself? ABSOLUTELY
3. Did He also say that where He is they would be also there in the same passage? ABSOLUTELY
4. Does 1 Thessalonians 4 say that Jesus comes "in the air" to receive His saints at the Resurrection/Rapture? ABSOLUTELY
5. Does that passage also plainly say this "...AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD"? ABSOLUTELY
Is that not sufficient biblical evidence to prove that Christ returns to Heaven with all His saints after the Resurrection/Rapture?
1. Is the Lord Jesus Christ presently in Heaven seated at the right hand of the Father? ABSOLUTELY
2. Did Christ promise in John 14:1-3 to come again and receive His people unto Himself? ABSOLUTELY
3. Did He also say that where He is they would be also there in the same passage? ABSOLUTELY
4. Does 1 Thessalonians 4 say that Jesus comes "in the air" to receive His saints at the Resurrection/Rapture? ABSOLUTELY
5. Does that passage also plainly say this "...AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD"? ABSOLUTELY
Is that not sufficient biblical evidence to prove that Christ returns to Heaven with all His saints after the Resurrection/Rapture?
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Gotcha so you deflected and didn't actually answer his question. There aren't verses that answer his question meaning you just created a doctrine of man. It's unbiblical. This needs to be your wake up call to start paying more attention to God's will and less attention to your will.
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They think that when He "descends" (and we go "to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR") that He continues ON DOWN to the earth (i.e. His Second Coming to the earth) at that time.
We see them as being at DISTINCT points in the chronology.
[the "definitions" of certain words, in 2Th2 especially, I see as being at the root of this]
We see them as being at DISTINCT points in the chronology.
[the "definitions" of certain words, in 2Th2 especially, I see as being at the root of this]
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I agree that resurrection and rapture are the same time. Armageddon is described as a battle, but of course Jesus ends it very quickly, so there's not a battle at all.
Agreed.
Correct.
What is your view of who the "restrainer" is?
No doubt.
One thing you didn't address what whether Revelation was written sequentially or simultaneously. iow, are the 3 sets of 7 judgments sequential, or do they all occur at the same time?
Agreed.
Correct.
What is your view of who the "restrainer" is?
No doubt.
One thing you didn't address what whether Revelation was written sequentially or simultaneously. iow, are the 3 sets of 7 judgments sequential, or do they all occur at the same time?
What's your take on the timing after factoring in 2 Peter 3:10-13 about the elements being dissolved with fervent heat after Christ returns?
How could I have deflected from the issue that Christ returns to Heaven with His saints at the Resurrection/Rapture when I actually quoted relevant Scriptures?
So do you believe that Christ is presently in Heaven seated at the right hand of the Father, or do you not? And do you also believe that when Christ comes to earth at His Second Coming He will come with all His saints and angels from Heaven itself? If not, then you don't believe the Bible.
So do you believe that Christ is presently in Heaven seated at the right hand of the Father, or do you not? And do you also believe that when Christ comes to earth at His Second Coming He will come with all His saints and angels from Heaven itself? If not, then you don't believe the Bible.
I believe those things and I believe the Bible. The original question asked was:
"Could you provide the clear verse that tells us that Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting/rapturing all believers?'
I haven't seen a verse says Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting/rapturing all believers.
The reason is because there isn't a verse that says it. This belief that it happens is a pre-tribulation doctrine.
"Could you provide the clear verse that tells us that Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting/rapturing all believers?'
I haven't seen a verse says Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting/rapturing all believers.
The reason is because there isn't a verse that says it. This belief that it happens is a pre-tribulation doctrine.
FreeGrace2 said:
And ch 4 says nothing about any U-turn back to heaven.
Here's the problem. Pre-tribbers routinely use the 1 Thess passage as a rapture passage. Yet, there is NOTHING there about returning to heaven.
And there's the whole problem. It DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT RETURNING TO HEAVEN. If true, there would be at least ONE verse that actually says so. But there isn't any verse.
And refutes the idea of a pre-trib rapture. Because v.1 gives the order of things. The Second Coming is listed first, followed by "our being gathered" to Him. That's the rapture. And all of this is preceded by the revealing of the Beast aka antichrist.
If you don't preview your posts before posting, you may have missed the fact that all this is just ONE sentence. Do you really think that people are interested in reading such a long sentence? Kinda like getting lost in the weeds.
As to your top line, people very often ALSO kid-define words/terms/phrases, in order to fit their own eisegesis.
Simply because "what you've said" isn't what Paul wrote, or meant.
You still have no evidence that the church will not be present on earth for the Tribl You do have your "explanations", and I note that you even put that in quote marks.
This is merely conjecture or construct.
And ch 4 says nothing about any U-turn back to heaven.
Here's the problem. Pre-tribbers routinely use the 1 Thess passage as a rapture passage. Yet, there is NOTHING there about returning to heaven.
And there's the whole problem. It DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT RETURNING TO HEAVEN. If true, there would be at least ONE verse that actually says so. But there isn't any verse.
And refutes the idea of a pre-trib rapture. Because v.1 gives the order of things. The Second Coming is listed first, followed by "our being gathered" to Him. That's the rapture. And all of this is preceded by the revealing of the Beast aka antichrist.
But, people very often mis-define words / terms / phrases... connect (as one) entirely distinct items... incorporate TWO items as being [said to be "FIRST"] rather than the ONE item that is said to be... routinely "skip back OVER and PAST" verse 2 [as if it weren't even there!] to ascertain what v.3A's 'that day' is speaking of (grammatical faux pas to put it gracefully, lol)... ignore the fact that "the day of the Lord" (v.2) and "IN THAT DAY" (also in the wider context) are speaking of the SAME [future] TIME-PERIOD just like they are used in such a way [together] in the OT prophecies... and ignore "how" Paul had already said it will "ARRIVE" (just like Jesus had described when He spoke of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS"--not at the END of all that + more!)... etc...
to put it gracefully, lol)... ignore the fact that "the day of the Lord" (v.2) and "IN THAT DAY" (also in the wider context) are speaking of the SAME [future] TIME-PERIOD just like they are used in such a way [together] in the OT prophecies... and ignore "how" Paul had already said it will "ARRIVE" (just like Jesus had described when He spoke of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS"--not at the END of all that + more!)... etc...
As to your top line, people very often ALSO kid-define words/terms/phrases, in order to fit their own eisegesis.
Simply because "what you've said" isn't what Paul wrote, or meant.
You still have no evidence that the church will not be present on earth for the Tribl You do have your "explanations", and I note that you even put that in quote marks.
So... do you think I would follow up that ^ sentence by saying:
1) we'll hang up in the clouds for all 7 years ( ) ;
1) we'll hang up in the clouds for all 7 years (
) ;
FreeGrace2 said:
Could you provide the clear verse that tells us that Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting/rapturing all believers? That is the only way anyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture will be "on the right track".
Really? An answer to my question is for me to ask more questions???
No, of course not. #2 has NO bearing at all on end times. Jesus was telling LIVING disciples that there would be a place for them. He didn't specify when that would be. The New Earth and the NJ easily satisfy that.
So, since there are NO verses that tell us that Jesus takes all believers back to heaven, there is NO reason to believe that.
All you've got is conjecture and construct. No evidence.
Here's the real evidence for a post-trib gathering (what you call a rapture).
Acts 3:21 says Jesus will remain in heaven until the times of restoration.
2 Thess 2:1 gives us the order for the Second Coming (post-trip) and the gathering (wht you call a rapture).
Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Trib martyrs at the end of the Trib and Second Coming of the Lord as "the first resurrection".
It would be silly to call a resurrection SEVEN YEARS AFTER a resurrection to be the "first".
Could you provide the clear verse that tells us that Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting/rapturing all believers? That is the only way anyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture will be "on the right track".
Really? An answer to my question is for me to ask more questions???
No, of course not. #2 has NO bearing at all on end times. Jesus was telling LIVING disciples that there would be a place for them. He didn't specify when that would be. The New Earth and the NJ easily satisfy that.
So, since there are NO verses that tell us that Jesus takes all believers back to heaven, there is NO reason to believe that.
All you've got is conjecture and construct. No evidence.
Here's the real evidence for a post-trib gathering (what you call a rapture).
Acts 3:21 says Jesus will remain in heaven until the times of restoration.
2 Thess 2:1 gives us the order for the Second Coming (post-trip) and the gathering (wht you call a rapture).
Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Trib martyrs at the end of the Trib and Second Coming of the Lord as "the first resurrection".
It would be silly to call a resurrection SEVEN YEARS AFTER a resurrection to be the "first".
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We think so because the Bible is very clear about it.
Here's the real evidence for a post-trib gathering (what you call a rapture).
Acts 3:21 says Jesus will remain in heaven until the times of restoration.
2 Thess 2:1 gives us the order for the Second Coming (post-trip) and the gathering (wht you call a rapture).
Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Trib martyrs at the end of the Trib and Second Coming of the Lord as "the first resurrection".
It would be silly to call a resurrection SEVEN YEARS AFTER a resurrection to be the "first".
With respect, you are just 'seeing things'. That aren't there.
It requires conjecture and construct to come up with your "explanation".
Here's the real evidence for a post-trib gathering (what you call a rapture).
Acts 3:21 says Jesus will remain in heaven until the times of restoration.
2 Thess 2:1 gives us the order for the Second Coming (post-trip) and the gathering (wht you call a rapture).
Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Trib martyrs at the end of the Trib and Second Coming of the Lord as "the first resurrection".
It would be silly to call a resurrection SEVEN YEARS AFTER a resurrection to be the "first".
With respect, you are just 'seeing things'. That aren't there.
It requires conjecture and construct to come up with your "explanation".
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Verse 1 is not speaking of [what we call] "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH [Rev19]":
--[I addressed this in an earlier post in this thread-->] v.1a's "the coming [/parousia] of OUR Lord Jesus Christ" [<--phrasing always pertains to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" in association/connection "WITH Him"]
... is DISTINGUISHED in this very passage FROM v.8b's "the APPEARANCE [ / APPEARING / MANIFESTATION] of the presence [/parousia] of Him" [when EVERY EYE shall SEE Him;--1Tim6:15 "SHALL SHEW [/OPENLY MANIFEST--Rev19 "King of kings..."]"
--1Tim6:15 being one of only TWO references to "King" (re: Him) in all of the epistles;
--note even v.8a is seven years apart from v.8b;
--both phrases in v.1 speak of "our Rapture" event ONLY... one time-slot (its timing... in relation [time-wise / sequence-wise] to the OTHER ITEM Paul is addressing next in this context)
--v.2 is covering the Subject of the "earthly time-period" they incorrectly were being persuaded "IS PRESENT" (or were at risk of being persuaded of this);
--it is distinct from the item in v.1, and Paul is going to address their RELATION [SEQUENCE ISSUE] in v.3 (v.3a = v.2's Subject [earthly-located time-period];
--V.3b = ONE THING *FIRST* ... "and"/distinctly "the man of sin be revealed"--once he is "revealed," the "DOTL [earthly time-period]" will indeed "BE PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth over the course of SOME TIME...
--and that is NOT at the point that v.4 is speaking of, but what vv.8a and 9a are speaking of [=v.3b]
--that's enough for now (or, perhaps too much... we shall see = ) )
No. The ONE THING *FIRST* is not "the man of sin be revealed" (beast / antichrist)... ONE THING (distinct from him) must happen *FIRST* (one of my links to those 3 posts went into all that, so I'm sure you've seen that already)
--[I addressed this in an earlier post in this thread-->] v.1a's "the coming [/parousia] of OUR Lord Jesus Christ" [<--phrasing always pertains to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" in association/connection "WITH Him"]
... is DISTINGUISHED in this very passage FROM v.8b's "the APPEARANCE [ / APPEARING / MANIFESTATION] of the presence [/parousia] of Him" [when EVERY EYE shall SEE Him;--1Tim6:15 "SHALL SHEW [/OPENLY MANIFEST--Rev19 "King of kings..."]"
--1Tim6:15 being one of only TWO references to "King" (re: Him) in all of the epistles;
--note even v.8a is seven years apart from v.8b;
--both phrases in v.1 speak of "our Rapture" event ONLY... one time-slot (its timing... in relation [time-wise / sequence-wise] to the OTHER ITEM Paul is addressing next in this context)
--v.2 is covering the Subject of the "earthly time-period" they incorrectly were being persuaded "IS PRESENT" (or were at risk of being persuaded of this);
--it is distinct from the item in v.1, and Paul is going to address their RELATION [SEQUENCE ISSUE] in v.3 (v.3a = v.2's Subject [earthly-located time-period];
--V.3b = ONE THING *FIRST* ... "and"/distinctly "the man of sin be revealed"--once he is "revealed," the "DOTL [earthly time-period]" will indeed "BE PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth over the course of SOME TIME...
--and that is NOT at the point that v.4 is speaking of, but what vv.8a and 9a are speaking of [=v.3b]
--that's enough for now (or, perhaps too much... we shall see = ) )
No. The ONE THING *FIRST* is not "the man of sin be revealed" (beast / antichrist)... ONE THING (distinct from him) must happen *FIRST* (one of my links to those 3 posts went into all that, so I'm sure you've seen that already)
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I know postrib by heart.
Trump
Trumpet
only one " coming"
" After the tribulation"
" Pretrib has no verses"
" The dead in Christ rise after the gathering in rev 14"
Beginning means after
" In like manner"....we ignore
Ignore escape verses
Pretend the bride groom dynamic is made up
The other comings can not be other comings.
Jesus sitting on a cloud is actually Jesus on a horse.
Rev 19 does not say what it does.
Lahaye
Darby
Church fathers
Ignore the catholics burned pretribbers and their writings.
I know postrib doctrine better than most postribs.
The debate centers in omissions.
Mark twain said it best..." It's not the verses I don't understand that's a problem for me, it's the ones I do understand that bothers me"
Just turn the pages faster.
Trump
Trumpet
only one " coming"
" After the tribulation"
" Pretrib has no verses"
" The dead in Christ rise after the gathering in rev 14"
Beginning means after
" In like manner"....we ignore
Ignore escape verses
Pretend the bride groom dynamic is made up
The other comings can not be other comings.
Jesus sitting on a cloud is actually Jesus on a horse.
Rev 19 does not say what it does.
Lahaye
Darby
Church fathers
Ignore the catholics burned pretribbers and their writings.
I know postrib doctrine better than most postribs.
The debate centers in omissions.
Mark twain said it best..." It's not the verses I don't understand that's a problem for me, it's the ones I do understand that bothers me"
Just turn the pages faster.