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E
neither do we.
They have a servant team, Where if you want to do certain things like vote on church policy, and other stuff, they request you give a certain amount, But no one ever demands you even give a penny, If new people show up. We beg them not to pay, We want to pay them, by offering them a free gift.
We only talk about giving (unless it comes up in a passage we are studying) once a year, when we ask people to pledge, so we can do a budget.
God always supplies.
They have a servant team, Where if you want to do certain things like vote on church policy, and other stuff, they request you give a certain amount, But no one ever demands you even give a penny, If new people show up. We beg them not to pay, We want to pay them, by offering them a free gift.
We only talk about giving (unless it comes up in a passage we are studying) once a year, when we ask people to pledge, so we can do a budget.
God always supplies.
D
First, really? This is the thing that Yet says to get you to respond?
So, no. Not going to respond to Yet, because he doesn't hear. Just thought you'd be interested in knowing, the post you're responding to is accurate for my denomination.
That really is what our teaching elder does. What is missing is what goes on for those 35 hours of preparing for that one "little" sermon. You've already told what you do for one sermon, but, because you have those other duties, you're hard-pressed to squeeze in the time to thoroughly prepare for that sermon. It's hard work, isn't it? All that schooling that teaches you how to study the word merely gives you the ability to study the particular scriptures you'll be teaching that day. The 35 hours is spent checking context, checking word use, checking out if what you see in that particular passage fits the full of the Bible, seeing what other scholars believe and then fact-checking to see if they were right. Praying. Lots of praying, because it is so easy to see what we want to see versus see what God is truly saying, and then getting back to that passage to make sure you get in the fullness of it. 35 hours. Each and every week.
And then 5 hours putting all that information into the sermon itself.
And let's just skip the time it takes to give the sermon, because that's not really part of those "40 hours a week."
But that's what our Teaching Elders do every week. And then at night and on the weekends, when he doesn't need his family and his family doesn't need him, he can go on to write papers about the Bible, write books, do radio shows and prepare for all that. And then there is the gatherings -- presbyteries. He is the Teaching Elder, so he does represent that church and has to go for four-hour long Robert's Rules of Order driven meetings once a month. And then he has to go to the national conventions/presbyteries. And then he sits on boards to duke out exactly what is sola scriptura or what is the role of women in the church. Also not the 40 hours, but he has to.
Our Ruling Elders are the ones responsible for caring for the church -- visiting the sick, evangelism, scheduling church-building maintenance, deciding what the church-building could use (like when it's time for a new heater), and ministering to the community.
A medium-sized church in my denomination has 1 teaching elder and 2-4 ruling elders. Then there are the volunteers -- the members who get involved with one or more ministries. The large churches have one main teaching elder but use 3-5 ruling elders in rotation for doing the night time service and Bible Study. (Three services on Sunday -- early service, morning service, and then evening service. Teaching Elder also gives his sermon twice, but one of the ruling elders does what you do -- teaches one Sunday evening every month along with all the other responsibilities.)
So, although Yet was being his usual charming self, but was right in some cases, and the way you handle it is common, there are other ways it can be done. Sure, Yet was being sarcastic again, but only because he has no clue exactly how much work it is to prepare for a godly sermon.
Just thought you'd be interested in hearing about another way of doing it.
So, no. Not going to respond to Yet, because he doesn't hear. Just thought you'd be interested in knowing, the post you're responding to is accurate for my denomination.
That really is what our teaching elder does. What is missing is what goes on for those 35 hours of preparing for that one "little" sermon. You've already told what you do for one sermon, but, because you have those other duties, you're hard-pressed to squeeze in the time to thoroughly prepare for that sermon. It's hard work, isn't it? All that schooling that teaches you how to study the word merely gives you the ability to study the particular scriptures you'll be teaching that day. The 35 hours is spent checking context, checking word use, checking out if what you see in that particular passage fits the full of the Bible, seeing what other scholars believe and then fact-checking to see if they were right. Praying. Lots of praying, because it is so easy to see what we want to see versus see what God is truly saying, and then getting back to that passage to make sure you get in the fullness of it. 35 hours. Each and every week.
And then 5 hours putting all that information into the sermon itself.
And let's just skip the time it takes to give the sermon, because that's not really part of those "40 hours a week."
But that's what our Teaching Elders do every week. And then at night and on the weekends, when he doesn't need his family and his family doesn't need him, he can go on to write papers about the Bible, write books, do radio shows and prepare for all that. And then there is the gatherings -- presbyteries. He is the Teaching Elder, so he does represent that church and has to go for four-hour long Robert's Rules of Order driven meetings once a month. And then he has to go to the national conventions/presbyteries. And then he sits on boards to duke out exactly what is sola scriptura or what is the role of women in the church. Also not the 40 hours, but he has to.
Our Ruling Elders are the ones responsible for caring for the church -- visiting the sick, evangelism, scheduling church-building maintenance, deciding what the church-building could use (like when it's time for a new heater), and ministering to the community.
A medium-sized church in my denomination has 1 teaching elder and 2-4 ruling elders. Then there are the volunteers -- the members who get involved with one or more ministries. The large churches have one main teaching elder but use 3-5 ruling elders in rotation for doing the night time service and Bible Study. (Three services on Sunday -- early service, morning service, and then evening service. Teaching Elder also gives his sermon twice, but one of the ruling elders does what you do -- teaches one Sunday evening every month along with all the other responsibilities.)
So, although Yet was being his usual charming self, but was right in some cases, and the way you handle it is common, there are other ways it can be done. Sure, Yet was being sarcastic again, but only because he has no clue exactly how much work it is to prepare for a godly sermon.
Just thought you'd be interested in hearing about another way of doing it.
D
No, where you're from, a single church disagreed with you after you told the pastor God himself told you he had satanists so you had to "stand." (Your story is truly bizarre. I did read it and did listen to it. I didn't merely skim over it. I listened. It IS BIZARRE! It is NOT scriptural at all!!!) And this after a whopping 6 months of supposedly being a Christian, so you have way more answers than any mere pastor and everyone should listen to you, and no, you don't have to prove squat from scripture but expect everyone else to prove ourselves by scripture, and you probably don't even know scripture yet, but here you are the new-and-improved savior of the world/lone wolf!
(I can talk fast like a city person ought to, if I try. lol)
I am the older sister to two wonderful brothers and a sister. (I also have older brothers.) I remember when they were babies. I remember a couple of things they taught me even as babies. I was never going to trust them with big decisions back then. Why in the world do you think anyone should trust you, a babe in Christ, with anything given how much malarkey you've been letting loose with since you entered this conversation?
You keep telling what you know, and all along all we're getting is you know NOTHING! You think God talks to you with a new message.
I think you need help with a therapist. As for church, right now the only purpose for you going to church is to be cared for. You have no input on how one should run. You really, really need mental help and a church, even that church you shunned, can give you emotional support while you get mental health help. You are a lone wolf, but I fear the type that has the potential to become serial killers. Not so much a murderer, but you've gone off the deep end, and have no idea you have.
(I can talk fast like a city person ought to, if I try. lol)
I am the older sister to two wonderful brothers and a sister. (I also have older brothers.) I remember when they were babies. I remember a couple of things they taught me even as babies. I was never going to trust them with big decisions back then. Why in the world do you think anyone should trust you, a babe in Christ, with anything given how much malarkey you've been letting loose with since you entered this conversation?
You keep telling what you know, and all along all we're getting is you know NOTHING! You think God talks to you with a new message.
I think you need help with a therapist. As for church, right now the only purpose for you going to church is to be cared for. You have no input on how one should run. You really, really need mental help and a church, even that church you shunned, can give you emotional support while you get mental health help. You are a lone wolf, but I fear the type that has the potential to become serial killers. Not so much a murderer, but you've gone off the deep end, and have no idea you have.
D
I have been to many denominations. None of them have this head count/sing on the dotted line thing. GET OUT of the church you're going to. Whatever it is, it ain't Christian! GIGO counts for Christianity too, and you're really in a lot of garbage. I'm not saying you've agreed with or stand with the garbage. I'm letting you know you're being sucked in by a giant sinkhole in a landfill. Get out before it swallows you up. You don't want to hang out with that group. Something is seriously wrong.
D
No, you worded it right. And, yeah, that's a scam. Most churches -- denoms or nondenoms -- get their money from the members who choose to tithe. Tithing is one of those things most don't choose to do or they lowball it, but that's where churches get their money. "Fees" is a scam. "Membership count" is a scam.
D
As someone who can't go to church, so I'm where you are, yes, it does make us less than!
It sets us up to reinvent our own gospel, so, yeah, less effective and maybe an attachee more than an ambassador. The "be ye separate" thing is about the world, not about the body. At least I know where I'm getting my doctrine, so it's less likely I'll create my own doctrine.
But, YES, very much! We are less thans. Feel free to deal with that however you want, but it is reality!
And if you limit down to a mere 2-3 it's really not much different than lone wolfing it.
It sets us up to reinvent our own gospel, so, yeah, less effective and maybe an attachee more than an ambassador. The "be ye separate" thing is about the world, not about the body. At least I know where I'm getting my doctrine, so it's less likely I'll create my own doctrine.
But, YES, very much! We are less thans. Feel free to deal with that however you want, but it is reality!
And if you limit down to a mere 2-3 it's really not much different than lone wolfing it.
A monologue hall of oratory is not 'the assembly' the word envisions. But I might be wrong.
I started another thread that not one of you will help me with. It's possible that my bible is a misprint. If so I need you to check yours to see if you have a 1Cor12, Ephesians 4, and Romans12 in them. If not then I owe everyone here an apology.
Please check and let me know. If you don't have those chapters then I've been wrong on every thing I've been writng and I'll recant and start going to church and paying my tithes forthwith. And that's a promise. God bless all of you for caring about my eternal destiny.
I started another thread that not one of you will help me with. It's possible that my bible is a misprint. If so I need you to check yours to see if you have a 1Cor12, Ephesians 4, and Romans12 in them. If not then I owe everyone here an apology.
Please check and let me know. If you don't have those chapters then I've been wrong on every thing I've been writng and I'll recant and start going to church and paying my tithes forthwith. And that's a promise. God bless all of you for caring about my eternal destiny.
I'm sorry you had that kind of experience... yes, there are churches like that. I've been to Baptist churches like that. I attended a Christian church in California that was that way... so the Church of Christ certainly has no monopoly on that.
The one I attend is nothing like that. Whenever I travel, I try to attend a local church, and I have not seen that attitude or behavior at any of them, either.
We have been having instrumental worship services for just over a year now. Until recently, they were on Sunday evenings, but a couple of weeks ago, we started having instruments at one of the Sunday morning services, and the other service is still acapella.
To condemn a church for NOT using instruments is completely unscriptural, as there are NO scriptures that even INDICATE the first century church used them... much less a command to do so.
It has simply been the choice, and tradition of the Church of Christ to NOT use them, which goes back to the principle of "speaking where the Bible speaks, and being silent where the Bible is silent"..... where can you go wrong with THAT mindset?
Unfortunately, like many other churches, that tradition (based on scripture) became mandatory, in the minds of most Churches of Christ. However, over the last 10 years or so, that tradition is being changed.
I suggest that you do some investigating yourself, instead of stating the old criticisms, which are no longer true.
I was always told that the Baptists taught that you had to be baptized into their church in order to "join". I believed that most of my young life. Since then, I've talked to a couple of Baptist ministers, or "pastors", and have been assured that is not the case. So, be a Berean... check it out for yourself.
The one I attend is nothing like that. Whenever I travel, I try to attend a local church, and I have not seen that attitude or behavior at any of them, either.
We have been having instrumental worship services for just over a year now. Until recently, they were on Sunday evenings, but a couple of weeks ago, we started having instruments at one of the Sunday morning services, and the other service is still acapella.
To condemn a church for NOT using instruments is completely unscriptural, as there are NO scriptures that even INDICATE the first century church used them... much less a command to do so.
It has simply been the choice, and tradition of the Church of Christ to NOT use them, which goes back to the principle of "speaking where the Bible speaks, and being silent where the Bible is silent"..... where can you go wrong with THAT mindset?
Unfortunately, like many other churches, that tradition (based on scripture) became mandatory, in the minds of most Churches of Christ. However, over the last 10 years or so, that tradition is being changed.
I suggest that you do some investigating yourself, instead of stating the old criticisms, which are no longer true.
I was always told that the Baptists taught that you had to be baptized into their church in order to "join". I believed that most of my young life. Since then, I've talked to a couple of Baptist ministers, or "pastors", and have been assured that is not the case. So, be a Berean... check it out for yourself.
I'll try to help. But, to do that, I feel I have to point out to you that you might be getting a little unrealistic.
You seem to be wanting everyone to get up and contribute during the time together (the service) I just don't think that is what the Bible spoke about, or what happened... nor what should (or could reasonably happen) today.
The average congregation throughout the USA is 70 people . Now, that is a totally unreasonable number for a house church. And to divide that number up into sizes that could fit into our average homes (10 or 15 people each at several houses) leaves us with some serious problems.
First, the effectiveness of really reaching and helping the poor is drastically diminished. Few homes have the kitchen facilities many church buildings have. (Or even the bathrooms LOL)
Second, is the parking problem. Do you know that it is actually illegal in many municipalities, to not only assemble people like that on an ongoing scheduled (and it would HAVE to be regularly scheduled) basis, let alone have the streets filled with cars? Yes, it really is. We got the cops called on us for having regular Bible studies in a residential location... and the court upheld the complaint.
Then, you are also heaping a tremendous burden on probably only one couple with a larger house. The 1st Century church ate together... now, you have placed that setup and preparation on a very limited number of people who will have to keep doing this over and over and over again, forever.
Fourth, although we would all like to think that we are great orators....... there just aren't that many people who can really teach others. That is why we hire (pay) qualified people to spend huge amounts of time researching and preparing lessons. (as well as the other things they do)
Fifth, I have heard you say that everyone should get up and have their say. Well, since I have only blushed on why I feel house churches won't work today, I see us all (200 of us a lot of times) trying to talk during the same service. Giving only 5 minutes to each person, (and it is TOUGH to limit some people to only 5 minutes! LOL) that would come to 16 hours of non-stop individual talking.
And, since I honestly see a dedicated building for all to meet as the most realistic answer.... someone has to buy that land and building (or rent it), and it has to be paid for with mortgage (if there is one), taxes if need be, insurances, lawn work, A/C, water, trash pick-up, yearly city permits , if applicable, repairs and upkeep, cleaning and supplies (TP, hand towels, soap, light bulbs, etc.) office equipment, copy supplies, children's needs and supplies, phone, internet, computers, postage, sound equipment, an "on-hand" benevolent fund for emergencies in the community..... and the list can go on and on.
And, although you see no need for it, paying a secretary for handling all this household coordination is almost a necessity... unless we are going to be skin-flints, and expect one person to dedicate their lives to waiting on us with all this work.
And, as has been said, you demonstrate a total lack of understanding the enormous workload a "Pastor" carries. To refuse to compensate him is being just plain, "cheap."
You seem to be wanting everyone to get up and contribute during the time together (the service) I just don't think that is what the Bible spoke about, or what happened... nor what should (or could reasonably happen) today.
The average congregation throughout the USA is 70 people . Now, that is a totally unreasonable number for a house church. And to divide that number up into sizes that could fit into our average homes (10 or 15 people each at several houses) leaves us with some serious problems.
First, the effectiveness of really reaching and helping the poor is drastically diminished. Few homes have the kitchen facilities many church buildings have. (Or even the bathrooms LOL)
Second, is the parking problem. Do you know that it is actually illegal in many municipalities, to not only assemble people like that on an ongoing scheduled (and it would HAVE to be regularly scheduled) basis, let alone have the streets filled with cars? Yes, it really is. We got the cops called on us for having regular Bible studies in a residential location... and the court upheld the complaint.
Then, you are also heaping a tremendous burden on probably only one couple with a larger house. The 1st Century church ate together... now, you have placed that setup and preparation on a very limited number of people who will have to keep doing this over and over and over again, forever.
Fourth, although we would all like to think that we are great orators....... there just aren't that many people who can really teach others. That is why we hire (pay) qualified people to spend huge amounts of time researching and preparing lessons. (as well as the other things they do)
Fifth, I have heard you say that everyone should get up and have their say. Well, since I have only blushed on why I feel house churches won't work today, I see us all (200 of us a lot of times) trying to talk during the same service. Giving only 5 minutes to each person, (and it is TOUGH to limit some people to only 5 minutes! LOL) that would come to 16 hours of non-stop individual talking.
And, since I honestly see a dedicated building for all to meet as the most realistic answer.... someone has to buy that land and building (or rent it), and it has to be paid for with mortgage (if there is one), taxes if need be, insurances, lawn work, A/C, water, trash pick-up, yearly city permits , if applicable, repairs and upkeep, cleaning and supplies (TP, hand towels, soap, light bulbs, etc.) office equipment, copy supplies, children's needs and supplies, phone, internet, computers, postage, sound equipment, an "on-hand" benevolent fund for emergencies in the community..... and the list can go on and on.
And, although you see no need for it, paying a secretary for handling all this household coordination is almost a necessity... unless we are going to be skin-flints, and expect one person to dedicate their lives to waiting on us with all this work.
And, as has been said, you demonstrate a total lack of understanding the enormous workload a "Pastor" carries. To refuse to compensate him is being just plain, "cheap."
B
Your post is a outstanding depiction on how and what it really takes to operate a church. Brovo indeed it surely must be a huge burden to do all these things you mentioned. I wonder how many folks in church really know these insights in what goes on behind the sermons in church not just on Sunday's but everyday of the week and what it takes.
Thank you for posting for I have learned today..
Thank you for posting for I have learned today..
Imagine the average Sunday morning service. Most folks come just about every week, but some have finally talked a friend/family member/coworker to come to church that weeks.
The hymns are remembered from childhood. The announcements are somewhere between the usual stuff and oh-that-s-different. The opening reading of the scripture. The preacher gets to the second point in his three point sermon, and from the middle of the church, on the right hand side, loud and clear you hear
Not only embarrassing for those who brought someone, the someone, and the people raised in this church, but very embarrassing to hubby. We don't go out of our way to have memories like that.
The hymns are remembered from childhood. The announcements are somewhere between the usual stuff and oh-that-s-different. The opening reading of the scripture. The preacher gets to the second point in his three point sermon, and from the middle of the church, on the right hand side, loud and clear you hear
Not only embarrassing for those who brought someone, the someone, and the people raised in this church, but very embarrassing to hubby. We don't go out of our way to have memories like that.
C
How many churches have you visited? Thanks, that was weird, I thought how did your response come from what I said? I don't forsake assembling myself together with believers, I just don't go to organized religious corporations to 'fellowship' with the world or the Christians attending a particular system of the house of idolatry.
All churches adhere to a system of theology for "religious worship"(<-- do not mistake this for worshipping God!), be it baptismal regeneration, tithe, oneness, law & gospel, sacraments, etc. There are altars of various sorts in quite a few churches, used for public worship and activities like the Lord's supper, confession, absolution, etc.
All churches adhere to a system of theology for "religious worship"(<-- do not mistake this for worshipping God!), be it baptismal regeneration, tithe, oneness, law & gospel, sacraments, etc. There are altars of various sorts in quite a few churches, used for public worship and activities like the Lord's supper, confession, absolution, etc.