Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
Its you that keeps saying that's what i believe.
Ok, good. So we agree that God from all eternity past knows who will believe and who will not? Yes?

Simple yes or no please. I’m leading up to something.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Ok, good. So we agree that God from all eternity past knows who will believe and who will not? Yes?

Simple yes or no please. I’m leading up to something.
I said a long time ago now that probably God being out side of time , from his perspective sees the past , present and future at a glance.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
When does He find out who will believe and what His Calling is for them.
For us the most important perspective is ours . Its the one we make our choices . Which are real choices with real consequences.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
we don’t base our doctrine on what we think is most beneficial do we?

I just liked and replied to an old post in the “ Not of Works thread”. It is very close to what I believe (not entirely, but close.). Go check it out.
I base my entire hope on my predestination to glorification. Not on a mysterious ' election ' that supposedly took place in eternity past in the mind of God . The bible doesn't speak this way . Its a distortion of a couple of verses taken out of context because Agustine decided he needed to have 'regeneration preceding faith '.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Ok, good. So we agree that God from all eternity past knows who will believe and who will not? Yes?

Simple yes or no
we don’t base our doctrine on what we think is most beneficial do we?

I just liked and replied to an old post in the “ Not of Works thread”. It is very close to what I believe (not entirely, but close.). Go check it out.
I see Election is not to salvation but service. You would never arrive at the conclusion that people are elected TO BE converted from the bible alone .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
we don’t base our doctrine on what we think is most beneficial do we?

I just liked and replied to an old post in the “ Not of Works thread”. It is very close to what I believe (not entirely, but close.). Go check it out.
The problems with most of christianity stem from this error on ' Election ' and Predestination. . There is basically three main views.
1) Calvinism
2) Soft Calvinism ( Armianism)
3)
Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)
Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
I said a long time ago now that probably God being out side of time , from his perspective sees the past , present and future at a glance.
Ok, so then He knew what He would call you to be and what your purpose was from infinity past too, right? Yes or no? For everyone, right?
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
The problems with most of christianity stem from this error on ' Election ' and Predestination. . There is basically three main views.
1) Calvinism
2) Soft Calvinism ( Armianism)
3)
Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)
Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)
Did God know what your calling and service would be in eternity past? So then when did He predestinate our calling, service, and purpose?

In eternity past.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
I base my entire hope on my predestination to glorification. Not on a mysterious ' election ' that supposedly took place in eternity past in the mind of God . The bible doesn't speak this way . Its a distortion of a couple of verses taken out of context because Agustine decided he needed to have 'regeneration preceding faith '.
When did God predestine you to be glorified? Countless eons after He already knew you were going to be glorified? I think not

If God can see the future at a glance, He knew from eternity past that you would be saved, that you would be His child, what your purpose, calling and service would be, and that you would be glorified.

So if He knew all this from eternity past, why would He wait to choose/elect what He already knows.

Sounds like from His perspective all of it was ALREADY SETTLED.

In eternity past.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
I see Election is not to salvation but service. You would never arrive at the conclusion that people are elected TO BE converted from the bible alone .
Is electing synonomous with choosing? If so, did God know something infallibly aeons before He chose it?

So He had infallible knowledge of all these things, but He did not choose them for aeons?

So when did God choose your purpose and the service that He would call you to? He waited Countless aeons to choose things He already infallibly knew?
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
Did God know what your calling and service would be in eternity past? So then when did He predestinate our calling, service, and purpose?

In eternity past.
When did God predestinate you unto glorification? When you were saved?

So He did not have that in mind for you, when He knew in eternity past that you would be saved, and therefore also glorified?

So it was foreknown by God, but not yet predestinated?

So if God didn’t predestinate it, who did? Seeing He had infallible foreknowledge of it from eternity past?
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
When did God predestine you to be glorified? Countless eons after He already knew you were going to be glorified? I think not

If God can see the future at a glance, He knew from eternity past that you would be saved, that you would be His child, what your purpose, calling and service would be, and that you would be glorified.

So if He knew all this from eternity past, why would He wait to choose/elect what He already knows.

Sounds like from His perspective all of it was ALREADY SETTLED.

In eternity past.
This brings us to a problem. If God infallibly knows what He will choose , ( our service, purpose, and glorification, etc), but does not choose it until we choose, yet He already knows what we will choose... does that mean He chooses what has already been determined by something outside of Himself?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Did God know what your calling and service would be in eternity past? So then when did He predestinate our calling, service, and purpose?

In eternity past.
I only have verses that put God predestinating only those in Christ . I only have a verse that says ( to the Church, the one body ) that we are known of God as a son only . Prior to that it seems that we are not known, but strangers and without hope .
eph 2.11-13
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
When did God predestine you to be glorified? Countless eons after He already knew you were going to be glorified? I think not

If God can see the future at a glance, He knew from eternity past that you would be saved, that you would be His child, what your purpose, calling and service would be, and that you would be glorified.

So if He knew all this from eternity past, why would He wait to choose/elect what He already knows.

Sounds like from His perspective all of it was ALREADY SETTLED.

In eternity past.
expand...
When did God predestine you to be glorified? Only those in him .
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
expand...
When did God predestine you to be glorified? Only those in him .
Seeing that God knew all things in eternity past, including our glorification, in light of that, you don’t think it was already predestined?
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
I only have verses that put God predestinating only those in Christ . I only have a verse that says ( to the Church, the one body ) that we are known of God as a son only . Prior to that it seems that we are not known, but strangers and without hope .
eph 2.11-13
Did God know He was going to adopt you from eternity past?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Is electing synonomous with choosing? If so, did God know something infallibly aeons before He chose it?

So He had infallible knowledge of all these things, but He did not choose them for aeons?

So when did God choose your purpose and the service that He would call you to? He waited Countless aeons to choose things He already infallibly knew?
God chose that all those in Christ to do and to be . Remember its all about Jesus , not us . WHEN we get in him ,THEN things happen . Israel for example is God's first born son . We gentiles were STRANGERS AND WITHOUT HOPE .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Seeing that God knew all things in eternity past, including our glorification, in light of that, you don’t think it was already predestined?
Again ,your getting into philosophy. The scriptures say ONLY those IN HIM are predestined to be conformed to his image. No lost person is predestined to anything.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
God chose that all those in Christ to do and to be . Remember its all about Jesus , not us . WHEN we get in him ,THEN things happen . Israel for example is God's first born son . We gentiles were STRANGERS AND WITHOUT HOPE .
You didnt answer the question. When did God chose your purpose and sphere of service?

Seeing He knows all things from eternity past.

If He knew your purpose, calling, and service from eternity past, doesn’t it follow He chose them in eternity past?

Or did someone or something choose for Him?

Of course He chose and knew these things from eternity past.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
Again ,your getting into philosophy. The scriptures say ONLY those IN HIM are predestined to be conformed to his image. No lost person is predestined to anything.
So God knew from eternity past that we would be glorified, but did not predestine it? So basically, God knows things before He ordains them? Wow

Who’s in control?