Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

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throughfaith

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OIC1965 said:
Isaiah 44:7 God challenges the false gods to foretell things to come the same way HE CAN.

You have so many things where you seem to say that God cannot act or choose or predestinate or know except in response to our actions. So either God foreknows perfectly all of our actions or else He cannot know what His actions will be, seeing His knowledge is contingent upon us doing something first in so many things.

It’s really a messy system you have
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Its messy to not be predestined to Glorification. You have no verse that says that for you .
 
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Guojing

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OIC1965 said:
John outlived Paul, and certainly understood the meaning and intent of Jesus’ words, when He said “Go and make disciples OF ALL NATIONS. He said this to the eleven.
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Yes, that was under the OT prophetic timetable as I stated, Israel is to be saved first, before the gentiles can be reached.

Have you ever read the Luke version of the Great Commission before? The order is stated there.
 
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OIC1965

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Guojing said:
Yes, that was under the OT prophetic timetable as I stated, Israel is to be saved first, before the gentiles can be reached.

Have you ever read the Luke version of the Great Commission before? The order is stated there.
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When did Israel receive national salvation?
 
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Guojing

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OIC1965 said:
When did Israel receive national salvation?
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John wouldn't have known that Israel will reject Christ, even up until his death.

We know now because we were born after his life ended on Earth.
 
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OIC1965

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Guojing said:
John wouldn't have known that Israel will reject Christ, even up until his death.

We know now because we were born after his life ended on Earth.
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Jesus said make disciples of all nations. John lived almost into the second century. Jesus also said when He was lifted up from the earth He would draw all men, in context of Greeks seeking Him.
 
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OIC1965

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throughfaith said:
It says " never knew you " not " I never predestined you " .
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He didn’t know them. But that doesn’t mean He doesn’t possess knowledge of them. I never knew you doesn’t mean “I was unaware of your existence”.

Do you actually think that God doesn’t know about the people who don’t believe

What you are doing is called fallacious equivocation.
 
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OIC1965

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throughfaith said:
So which is it ? predestined to glorification or predestinated to conversion ? Do you just generalise the verses ?
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Can you be glorified without being converted? No. So if God predestined you to glorification, it follows of necessity that He has foreknowledge of your conversion.

Otherwise, He is predestinating people that He doesn’t know for sure if they’ll be saved or not.

And if you say He predestines after conversion, and therefore His foreknowledge is also after conversion, then you believe that God is imperfect in knowledge, and is learning as He goes.

Either way, it doesnt work. Sounds more like Zeus than YHWH.
 
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Guojing

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OIC1965 said:
Jesus said make disciples of all nations. John lived almost into the second century. Jesus also said when He was lifted up from the earth He would draw all men, in context of Greeks seeking Him.
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Yes, but the order was spelt out in Luke. If you disagree with that order, we can agree to disagree here.
 
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OIC1965

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throughfaith said:
So which is it ? predestined to glorification or predestinated to conversion ? Do you just generalise the verses ?
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Are you saying that God predestined us to glorification before He knows we will be converted, or that they happen at the same time, but that God didnt know you would be saved, and didn’t know how He was going to use you until after you got saved?

Which is it?
 
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OIC1965

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Guojing said:
Yes, but the order was spelt out in Luke. If you disagree with that order, we can agree to disagree here.
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Do you not realize that John outlived the other apostles and therefore would have understood that God was already calling both Jews and Gentiles in His lifetime?
 
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Guojing

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OIC1965 said:
Do you not realize that John outlived the other apostles and therefore would have understood that God was already calling both Jews and Gentiles in His lifetime?
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That is your assumption.

Whether or not John understood the same mysteries as Paul did is irrelevant. There is nothing in John's letters that contain salvation doctrine for the Body of Christ.
 
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throughfaith

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OIC1965 said:
Are you saying that God predestined us to glorification before He knows we will be converted, or that they happen at the same time, but that God didnt know you would be saved, and didn’t know how He was going to use you until after you got saved?

Which is it?
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Whether God knows that we will believe or not does not effect our choice. We are predestined to glorification being IN HIM . When do we GET IN HIM ? AFTER we believe.
 
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OIC1965

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Guojing said:
That is your assumption.

Whether or not John understood the same mysteries as Paul did is irrelevant. There is nothing in John's letters that contain salvation doctrine for the Body of Christ.
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Actually, there’s a ton of salvation doctrine in John’s letters, gospels, and apocalypse.

I write to you little children because your sins are forgiven, we know that we have passed from death unto life, who is He that overcometh, the one who believes Jesus is the Christ, we know that we have been born of God, He has given us an understanding, you have received an unction from the Holy One, by this we know that we are in Him, by the Spirit which He has given us, etc.
 
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throughfaith

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OIC1965 said:
He didn’t know them. But that doesn’t mean He doesn’t possess knowledge of them. I never knew you doesn’t mean “I was unaware of your existence”.

Do you actually think that God doesn’t know about the people who don’t believe

What you are doing is called fallacious equivocation.
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We are not known as sons until we are a son . Gal 4 9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
 
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throughfaith

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OIC1965 said:
He didn’t know them. But that doesn’t mean He doesn’t possess knowledge of them. I never knew you doesn’t mean “I was unaware of your existence”.

Do you actually think that God doesn’t know about the people who don’t believe

What you are doing is called fallacious equivocation.
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This ' possessing knowledge of them ' doesn't do anything for those that believe and those that don't.
 
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OIC1965

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throughfaith said:
Whether God knows that we will believe or not does not effect our choice. We are predestined to glorification being IN HIM . When do we GET IN HIM ? AFTER we believe.
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I’m not talking about man and what man can do. I’m talking about what God can do. You are still focusing on man. I am focusing on God.

You keep talking about man’s choice, while I am talking about the power and glory of God.

I’m not saying that God’s knowledge limits our freedom.

But neither is God’s knowledge limited by our freedom.
 
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