-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
D
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
(note we are saved by grace alone - through faith)
Which brings another Scripture to mind...
2 Timothy 2
11 This is a faithful saying:
For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
(note we are saved by grace alone - through faith)
Which brings another Scripture to mind...
2 Timothy 2
11 This is a faithful saying:
For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.
Last edited:
As I said before, this is not the forum for debate on baptism.
However, it is interesting that you should use the scripture from 2 Timothy, as it lends weight for, not against my position.
The following is from The College Press NIV Commentary, 1, 2 Timothy & Titus by C. Michael Moss
(2008), pp. 210-211.
If we died with him, we shall also live with him
The first line matches what Paul said in Romans 6:8. Although some, like Hendricksen, would see Paul referring to martrydom, it is probable that he has in mind the believer's experience at his conversion and baptism. This would agree with Paul's use of the argument in Romans 6:8-11 (cf. Col. 3:3). It would also agree with Paul's use of the past tense "died".
In other words, if martyrdom were the issue, Paul would have said "If we die with him", not died, past tense. That would make no sense.
Thanks for the support!!!
However, it is interesting that you should use the scripture from 2 Timothy, as it lends weight for, not against my position.
The following is from The College Press NIV Commentary, 1, 2 Timothy & Titus by C. Michael Moss
(2008), pp. 210-211.
If we died with him, we shall also live with him
The first line matches what Paul said in Romans 6:8. Although some, like Hendricksen, would see Paul referring to martrydom, it is probable that he has in mind the believer's experience at his conversion and baptism. This would agree with Paul's use of the argument in Romans 6:8-11 (cf. Col. 3:3). It would also agree with Paul's use of the past tense "died".
In other words, if martyrdom were the issue, Paul would have said "If we die with him", not died, past tense. That would make no sense.
Thanks for the support!!!
D
Complete misunderstanding of water baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire.
(just pointing out baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a work of men, I'm pretty sure Paul wrote most of Galations on this very subject)
Galatians 3:2
This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(just pointing out baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a work of men, I'm pretty sure Paul wrote most of Galations on this very subject)
Galatians 3:2
This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Last edited:
could you define faithless, because If the Bible teaches that Christ paid our debt, however one believes that there is more to do, would this be faithless to you, where as someone would believe that Christ did not do it all, that the author and finisher of our faith needs our assistance to finish what He has already been given Glory for, Just curious, because I believe that without faith it is impossible to please Him, or maybe it is not the definition of faith that is important but whom our faith is in?
I have always took that Christ can not deny himself , that he can not deny Himself as God . God can not lie thus Christ can not deny that He is God, He has to be faithful to himself,
I have always took that Christ can not deny himself , that he can not deny Himself as God . God can not lie thus Christ can not deny that He is God, He has to be faithful to himself,
Last edited:
To be faithful means to be full of faith. To be faithful means to keep hold to the trust and promises of Christ and all that entails. As you said, exactly, without faith it is impossible to please Him. Let's look at the verse prior to verse 2 that says Christ is the author and finisher of faith:
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, {1} let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which {a} doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
As the theologian M. Henry says
"Christians have a race to run, a race of service and a race of sufferings, a course of active and passive obedience."
Christ being the author and finisher of faith basically means he is our captain and the one in whom our faith rests and depends upon. and who we look towards.
Let's not be misled to think that it means there is nothing for us to strive for, accomplish, or do.
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, {1} let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which {a} doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
As the theologian M. Henry says
"Christians have a race to run, a race of service and a race of sufferings, a course of active and passive obedience."
Christ being the author and finisher of faith basically means he is our captain and the one in whom our faith rests and depends upon. and who we look towards.
Let's not be misled to think that it means there is nothing for us to strive for, accomplish, or do.
G
You are totally wrong Snail.
When Jesus died on the cross 2000 years ago for someone who would live in the future He foresaw when they would have faith and He foresaw when they would have doubts. Their slavation does not depend on the accidental timing of their death.
Even if we(believers get to a point where we lose sight of our salvation. He cannnot deny what he accomplished on the cross(aorist tense) that one time.
Rest assured, when the believer actually gets into heaven they will have PLENTY of faith.
When Jesus died on the cross 2000 years ago for someone who would live in the future He foresaw when they would have faith and He foresaw when they would have doubts. Their slavation does not depend on the accidental timing of their death.
Even if we(believers get to a point where we lose sight of our salvation. He cannnot deny what he accomplished on the cross(aorist tense) that one time.
Rest assured, when the believer actually gets into heaven they will have PLENTY of faith.
ok let's examine these scriptures, I guess one might ask the question when does one get saved after we die, after we have proved ourself faithful until the end, or do we get saved when we trust in the Lord, Now I just covered some scriptures in the baptism thread that I want to share here. If we get saved, and I can prove this from scriptures, when we trust in the the Lord, then the doctrine of losing or falling away or even walking away under our own power Is a false teaching for look what scriptures plainly says, this will also disprove that water baptism is what saves us,
please read these scriptures with open eyes not with old doctrine eyes.
Ac 10:47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?Ac 10:48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Now here clearly it says that the disciples along with the gentiles here HAVE RECEIVED/already received the Holy Ghost, so clearly from scriptures state we can be saved/ have the Spirit of God indwell in us, before we prove to be faithful til the end, this involves peter so we can also be saved after we have even denied( that's a pretty big sin) Christ, but now look they even received the indwelling of The Spirit before they were baptised. so all those that believe we have to stay faithful til the end, before you can get salvation, Nay, But Preacher how does this prove we can't walk away , fall away, or that we can't do enough that God will take it away. we can prove this by the Promise of God Himself.
Joh 14:10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.Joh 14:11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.Joh 14:12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.Joh 14:13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.Joh 14:14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.Joh 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments.Joh 14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;Joh 14:17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
that sure sounds like ONCED SAVED ALWAYS SAVED TO ME.
please read these scriptures with open eyes not with old doctrine eyes.
Ac 10:47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?Ac 10:48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Now here clearly it says that the disciples along with the gentiles here HAVE RECEIVED/already received the Holy Ghost, so clearly from scriptures state we can be saved/ have the Spirit of God indwell in us, before we prove to be faithful til the end, this involves peter so we can also be saved after we have even denied( that's a pretty big sin) Christ, but now look they even received the indwelling of The Spirit before they were baptised. so all those that believe we have to stay faithful til the end, before you can get salvation, Nay, But Preacher how does this prove we can't walk away , fall away, or that we can't do enough that God will take it away. we can prove this by the Promise of God Himself.
Joh 14:10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.Joh 14:11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.Joh 14:12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.Joh 14:13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.Joh 14:14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.Joh 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments.Joh 14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;Joh 14:17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
that sure sounds like ONCED SAVED ALWAYS SAVED TO ME.
You're confusing foreknowledge with predestination.
Scripture does plainly say if we deny Him He will deny us. Peter denied Christ three times if I recall.
I've consulted various theological resources on these scriptures and unfortunately you are the one who is wrong. I've learnt not to trust the fat guy with the cat. Look up everything you read, I would post the refernces I use here but unfortunately most people on this website are allergic to scholarly or theological material and prefer to keep to their own delusional popular opinions and subjective knowledge - so I'll keep those pearls to myself thankyou
.
Scripture does plainly say if we deny Him He will deny us. Peter denied Christ three times if I recall.
I've consulted various theological resources on these scriptures and unfortunately you are the one who is wrong. I've learnt not to trust the fat guy with the cat. Look up everything you read, I would post the refernces I use here but unfortunately most people on this website are allergic to scholarly or theological material and prefer to keep to their own delusional popular opinions and subjective knowledge - so I'll keep those pearls to myself thankyou
.
D
No.. It doesn't.. You may need to go to the local pre-school and ask one of the 4 year olds to explain this to you. It really doesn't take a scholarly essay to explain. It's actually quite simple.
Once you understand.....
Galations 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
2 Timothy 2
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.
Yeah you recall correctly. Peter did deny Jesus 3 times.. Peter also wasn't filled with the Holy Spirit when he did this.
Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ - Holy Spirit.. All the same. You might want to actually put some thought into these post before you get on your high horse.
Once you understand.....
Galations 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
2 Timothy 2
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.
Scripture does plainly say if we deny Him He will deny us. Peter denied Christ three times if I recall.
I've consulted various theological resources on these scriptures and unfortunately you are the one who is wrong. I've learnt not to trust the fat guy with the cat. Look up everything you read, I would post the refernces I use here but unfortunately most people on this website are allergic to scholarly or theological material and prefer to keep to their own delusional popular opinions and subjective knowledge - so I'll keep those pearls to myself thankyou.
I've consulted various theological resources on these scriptures and unfortunately you are the one who is wrong. I've learnt not to trust the fat guy with the cat. Look up everything you read, I would post the refernces I use here but unfortunately most people on this website are allergic to scholarly or theological material and prefer to keep to their own delusional popular opinions and subjective knowledge - so I'll keep those pearls to myself thankyou
.
Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ - Holy Spirit.. All the same. You might want to actually put some thought into these post before you get on your high horse.
You're confusing foreknowledge with predestination.
Scripture does plainly say if we deny Him He will deny us. Peter denied Christ three times if I recall.
I've consulted various theological resources on these scriptures and unfortunately you are the one who is wrong. I've learnt not to trust the fat guy with the cat. Look up everything you read, I would post the refernces I use here but unfortunately most people on this website are allergic to scholarly or theological material and prefer to keep to their own delusional popular opinions and subjective knowledge - so I'll keep those pearls to myself thankyou.
Scripture does plainly say if we deny Him He will deny us. Peter denied Christ three times if I recall.
I've consulted various theological resources on these scriptures and unfortunately you are the one who is wrong. I've learnt not to trust the fat guy with the cat. Look up everything you read, I would post the refernces I use here but unfortunately most people on this website are allergic to scholarly or theological material and prefer to keep to their own delusional popular opinions and subjective knowledge - so I'll keep those pearls to myself thankyou
.
nice christian comment here snail, I haven't checked your profile, exactly how old are you?
I have one question on this post , are you saying that Peter is in hell????
S
You're confusing foreknowledge with predestination.
Scripture does plainly say if we deny Him He will deny us. Peter denied Christ three times if I recall.
I've consulted various theological resources on these scriptures and unfortunately you are the one who is wrong. I've learnt not to trust the fat guy with the cat. Look up everything you read, I would post the refernces I use here but unfortunately most people on this website are allergic to scholarly or theological material and prefer to keep to their own delusional popular opinions and subjective knowledge - so I'll keep those pearls to myself thankyou.
Scripture does plainly say if we deny Him He will deny us. Peter denied Christ three times if I recall.
I've consulted various theological resources on these scriptures and unfortunately you are the one who is wrong. I've learnt not to trust the fat guy with the cat. Look up everything you read, I would post the refernces I use here but unfortunately most people on this website are allergic to scholarly or theological material and prefer to keep to their own delusional popular opinions and subjective knowledge - so I'll keep those pearls to myself thankyou
.
You and 'watchmen' are good at showing how believer's lose their salvation but are not very good at showing how they get it back. Why is that? Certainly the bad news is in losing salvation and the good news would be getting it back. Please illustrate and give us the good news so that we can rejoice, just as there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth / Luke 15:10. If you want to use the prodigal son to illustrate your doctrine, be my guest, but be ready for a response on that one. You always have your outlet in Heb 6:4-6 that it is impossible to renew them unto repentance. If that is true, than Peter would have been no exception to this truth and would have never know repentance again and would have been lost forever. But we know that did not happen with Peter. If this is some popular opinion or subjective knowledge show me the error of my understanding!
Matthew 26: 75 Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: "Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." And he went outside and wept bitterly.
If Peter did not repent in matthew he certainly had done so prior to John 21:15-22.
John 21:
Jesus Reinstates Peter
15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs." 16 Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep." 17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. 18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!" 20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?") 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?" 22 Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."
I don't agree with everything that snail says, but you people act like we have no responsibility at all in the matter. I agree with Greatcraw above (I can't believe I said that), that the timing of our death has little to do with being saved, but our faith, heart, and willingness to submit and repent of our sins is most important. It IS possible to turn away and lose our salvation.
1 Tim. 4: 1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
If Peter did not repent in matthew he certainly had done so prior to John 21:15-22.
John 21:
Jesus Reinstates Peter
15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs." 16 Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep." 17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. 18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!" 20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?") 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?" 22 Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."
I don't agree with everything that snail says, but you people act like we have no responsibility at all in the matter. I agree with Greatcraw above (I can't believe I said that), that the timing of our death has little to do with being saved, but our faith, heart, and willingness to submit and repent of our sins is most important. It IS possible to turn away and lose our salvation.
1 Tim. 4: 1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
S
Matthew 26: 75 Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: "Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." And he went outside and wept bitterly.
Jesus said these things beforehand so that when they come to pass you might believe / John 14:29.
Peter did not believe that he would ever be offended or deny the Lord / Mt 26:33,35 and when the cock crowed he remembered the words Jesus had spoken. Peter didn't weep out of repentance, he wept because Christ told him exactly what he would do even though he didn't believe it, but now after it came to past he believed it. It is just like the time when Mary and Martha got word to Jesus that their brother Lazarus was died. When Christ arrived, Lazarus had been dead (4) days and he began to stink. When Christ saw Mary and the Jews with her weeping, He groaned in His spirit and was troubled. Then He wept.
He wept because of their unbelief that He was the resurrection and the life / Jn 11:30-45. Peter wept because of His own unbelief and not because he was repenting that he had denied Christ. It didn't seem to bother him too much after that, because he decided to go fishing with some of the disciples. He wanted to go back to his old job with his former associates, who just happened to be James and John, the sons of Zebedee (thunder).
Jesus said these things beforehand so that when they come to pass you might believe / John 14:29.
Peter did not believe that he would ever be offended or deny the Lord / Mt 26:33,35 and when the cock crowed he remembered the words Jesus had spoken. Peter didn't weep out of repentance, he wept because Christ told him exactly what he would do even though he didn't believe it, but now after it came to past he believed it. It is just like the time when Mary and Martha got word to Jesus that their brother Lazarus was died. When Christ arrived, Lazarus had been dead (4) days and he began to stink. When Christ saw Mary and the Jews with her weeping, He groaned in His spirit and was troubled. Then He wept.
He wept because of their unbelief that He was the resurrection and the life / Jn 11:30-45. Peter wept because of His own unbelief and not because he was repenting that he had denied Christ. It didn't seem to bother him too much after that, because he decided to go fishing with some of the disciples. He wanted to go back to his old job with his former associates, who just happened to be James and John, the sons of Zebedee (thunder).
There is no way to know for sure whether Peter repented at this time, for we don't know his heart. But just because his repentence isn't specifically recorded in scripture doesn't mean that he did not. Being a moral and righteous man, who loved Jesus, and had spent three + years with Jesus, it would seem reasonable to most people that he would have. Most people would consider John 21 as a recording of Jesus forgiving Peter and restoring him to the ministry. I don't know how anyone could not see that Jesus was reminding Peter of his transgressions, for which Peter was truly sorrowful, in a godly way, to repentence, and was thus awarded forgiveness. Jesus did not have to say "feed my sheep" three times, except as a reminder that Peter had denied Him three times.
You did not address the 1 Tim. 4:1-2 scripture. Can anyone deny that the Spirit in this case specifically states that some faithful (therefore saved by your own definition), will deny the faith and be lost?
You did not address the 1 Tim. 4:1-2 scripture. Can anyone deny that the Spirit in this case specifically states that some faithful (therefore saved by your own definition), will deny the faith and be lost?
People will accept Jesus as their Savior in the beginning, but what happens next? Check this out:
[3] "Listen! A sower went out to sow.
[4] And as he sowed, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.
[5] Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it had not much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil;
[6] and when the sun rose it was scorched, and since it had no root it withered away.
[7] Other seed fell among thorns and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain.
[8] And other seeds fell into good soil and brought forth grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."
[9] And he said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
[10] And when he was alone, those who were about him with the twelve asked him concerning the parables.
[11] And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables;
[12] so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven."
[13] And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?
[14] The sower sows the word.
[15] And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown; when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word which is sown in them.
[16] And these in like manner are the ones sown upon rocky ground, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy;
[17] and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.
[18] And others are the ones sown among thorns; they are those who hear the word,
[19] but the cares of the world, and the delight in riches, and the desire for other things, enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
[20] But those that were sown upon the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold." Mark 4:3-20 RSV
[3] "Listen! A sower went out to sow.
[4] And as he sowed, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.
[5] Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it had not much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil;
[6] and when the sun rose it was scorched, and since it had no root it withered away.
[7] Other seed fell among thorns and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain.
[8] And other seeds fell into good soil and brought forth grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."
[9] And he said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
[10] And when he was alone, those who were about him with the twelve asked him concerning the parables.
[11] And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables;
[12] so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven."
[13] And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?
[14] The sower sows the word.
[15] And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown; when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word which is sown in them.
[16] And these in like manner are the ones sown upon rocky ground, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy;
[17] and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.
[18] And others are the ones sown among thorns; they are those who hear the word,
[19] but the cares of the world, and the delight in riches, and the desire for other things, enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
[20] But those that were sown upon the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold." Mark 4:3-20 RSV