Loss of salvation versus questioning our faith

PeterJens · Oct 25, 2016

Future sin failure

Sin (past, present ) => Christ, the cross => forgiven => loving walk

Sin (past, present, future ) => Christ, the cross => forgiven => anything walk

Future sin has not happened and is unquantifiable. It is a commitment to rebellion.

Salvation is a commitment to commune with God and walk in righteousness.
It assumes a desire to not sin, and a commitment to walk these ways.

If one has no commitment to righteousness and against sin, how can you ever claim to
know Christ who knew no sin, or to be wanting to be His friend.

Forgiving future sin is against Gods nature. He forgives the wrong of the past because
of a commitment to not repeat it in the future.
Ezek 18:21 Ezek 18:24

This is Gods heart and has always been. To preach anything else is heresy.

But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live.
Ezek 18:21-22

But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
Ezek 18:24

The chosen are never accepted as sinners, but as faithful followers if they follow.

And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father(Christ).’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham(Christ). The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
“I baptize you with water for repentance. "
Matt 3:9-11

They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
John 8:33-36

If you have not been set free from sin and are still a slave to it, the Son has not set you
free yet. Walk in His ways and follow Him and you will find this freedom.

PeterJens · Oct 25, 2016

I think this will be helpful here - DIY faith

Whenever a difficult passage comes, invent a dispensation where it does not apply to you, and
it only is an impossible goal, to show how far you need God to help you.

And when God helps you, you will never actually change, because Christ has already done enough
you are acceptable as you are without transformation or growth.
Concentrate very hard, never interact with others, only Jesus as you imagine yourself as Jesus,
perfect and Holy, at Gods right hand because imagining it is as good as actually being it.

Conscience. If you conscience bothers you, it is satan condemning you, because you are now Christ.

The problem with all of this is it avoids the obvious, you are you, you are struggling and failing,
and though you know Christ you are putting nothing into action.

Jesus calls us to obey, to act, to follow and not to just imagine and wish it was true.
And interaction with others will show you where you really are, hard facts not invented positioning.

Christ died to set you free, so that you can get serious about loving yourself and others, and walking
in His ways. So believe in the cross, repent of your sin and walk in righteousness.

AbigailZeke · Oct 25, 2016

Wow, you are seriously misunderstanding everything. But God's grace is still sufficient for you.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 25, 2016

PeterJens said:

This is where you are mistaken, There are no levels of sin when it comes to ones eternity, Levels of sin ONLY represent itself when it comes to society, and how strong society needs to stand up and punish people who do certain things (IE Murder is more serious than a white lie, in society, and should be punished more severely) however, in the grand scheme of things, In Gods eyes, A murderer is no less or more evil than a liar. Both have sinned and fall short of Gods glory. As James said, Both are guilty of the law. and judged as sinners.

No Peter. THIS IS NOT TRUE.

Salvation is BEING SAVED from Gods wrath on sin, It is why CHrist died, It is why Christ took Gods wrath in our place and made redemption.

.. it ALLOWS us to have a relationship. and live in those things, IT IS NOT DOING IT.

If salvation is DOING those things, then salvation is earned by works, And not by grace.

Once you say a person is not saved, and he needs to keep working to earn that salvation by having a relationship and walking in purity and holiness. You have stomped and kicked and mocked the cross of Jesus, and are in reality, telling Jesus to stand aside, You have it, You can save yourself. Thank you Jesus, But I Got it from here.

You can not close the gap between where you need to be standing in relation to God. and where you were when you were a total enemy of god and wanted nothing to do with him. You can not even get close to closing the gap where you would be close to being saved,, Thats why we need grace, to close that gap for us, The cross closed that Gap Peter. thats why we can have a relationship. because apart from that, WE ARE DEAD.

Hell is no joke Peter. Amen.

So why do you have so much faith you can get yourself out of jail (hell) ?

Stop working, and allow Jesus to give you rest. all your work will not get you out of Hell for one second.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 25, 2016

DIY faith

Save yourself by doing works, Being Good, Trying your best to be holy and pure, and if you make an oopsie or booboo (DIYers do not sin, they make mistakes) then repent and say your sorry and your ok.

Grace777x70 · Oct 25, 2016

There is no difference in sin. Sin is missing the mark. The mark is partaking of God's quality of life. Jesus showed that while He was here on this earth by elevating the law of Moses to reveal what true "missing the mark" was.

Those that exhibit malice, deceit and slander to others in the body of Christ are in just as much sin as those that live in a homosexual lifestyle.

The ironic truth is that those that are labelled as hyper-gracers are the ones that say that all sin is horrible and one sin is as destructive as another in reference to the quality of life that is in God.

They are accused of saying that grace is a license to sin but it is those that are exhibiting malice, slander and deceit to others in the body of Christ are the very ones doing this "license to sin" - because they think this kind of behavior is ok. Go figure....

valiant · Oct 25, 2016

PeterJens said:

You forgot 'Counted as righteous in the sight of God and before the angels of Heaven (justified).

Set apart by faith in Me.'

This is true of you, It is not true of God. Christ 's death has covered all our sins.

My future sins are NOT commitment to rebellion. They are failings which I regret.

How can having been saved be my commitment? God is doing the saving. It is His commitment to me.

It assumes a desire to be saved from sin. The rest will follow,

Firstly I need to get right with God, by being justified by His grace while I am still ungodly. Then He changes me and Christ enters into me and make me seek after righteousness, and to conquer sin. It is His work not ours.

God commends His love towards us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. He does it while we are yet sinners.

Where does it mention a commitment? Those are your words, not Ezekiel's. I prefer to accept the New Testament which offers me justification from ALL sin. Having been justified by His blood we shall be saved from wrath through Him. In the Old Testament God was teaching the impossibility of being saved by the Law.

No God's heart and His love is set to SAVE sinners from the guilt of their sin permanently.

But Paul says that such ALWAYS fail (Rom 1.18 - 3.20)

You don't believe Romans 5? We CANNOT be faithful followers UNTIL we are saved from sin,

And Abraham was justified by faith without works as are we (Romans 4.1-6; Galatians 3)

Because they are shown not to have been saved.

So?

But Christians are not slaves to sin because they have been reborn. They do however have the grace to acknowledge that they fail God. If any man says he has not sinned he makes God a liar.

True but you still have to contend with the flesh. We see your sinful flesh coming out again and again even if you don't.

Everyone who is a Christian does this. And they have found freedom because they have been justified and born from above.

PeterJens · Oct 25, 2016

PeterJens said:

eternally-gratefull said:

Your position sounds very legalistic. From a distance it kind of makes sense.
A sin causes a debt. The debt is paid, so no debt is then owed.

But when you look closer any sin is paid by the life of the Messiah. Odd.
How can a theft require the death of someone as well as a murder?

Because the debt is the hurt God feels, His response of justice and judgement.
He is prepared to die to this for the sins commited against Him if they are wrapped
up in the death of His son. And by so doing He expresses His commitment and love
to mankind, and individually to you and I to forgive and work with us.

Wrapped up in all of this is discovering who God is and what He is calling us to do.
Everything in salvation is seeing the true nature of God through the cross. This changes
us, not just a super-spiritual falling of the Holy Spirit, but what naked, unmistakable love
taken to the death and suffering of the King. The deeper you see Christ the deep the wonder
and worship flow.

To see this and not see the relationship and heart flow is to miss it all. Expressing it like, it
allows us to have a relationship, is missing the content of the cross. This is Gods heart, this
sacrifice He is calling us to walk in and follow. It is no wonder those who do not see this do
not either walk in it.

Saying "This is not true" is calling me a liar, which I find odd. How can I lie about something
so fundamental to my spiritual life and understanding of Christ. It is not an intellectual assent
or a minor issue, this is Christs message through the cross.

Now I know many have different insights to the cross, and Amen, if it speaks to them, Praise
the Lord. I have not known people who trust in Christ to have a wrong view, maybe just superficial
or distant. The more we learn about the glories of the cross the more we grow, so Amen, it is
only through Gods spirit do we know Christ and see salvation. Amen and Halleluyah

blue_ladybug · Oct 25, 2016

renewed_hope said:

I think salvation looks like Jesus upon the cross. It can get tattered and bloody and beat up, but it can never be lost.

When you are saved, you are good to go. We only have to get saved ONCE. Questioning our faith is different in the respect that some of wonder how much faith we have. Or how much faith we need to get saved. The answer: mustard-seed sized faith. A mere smidgen of faith saves us.

JMO

PeterJens · Oct 25, 2016

valiant said:

My point is simple, you cannot regret something that does not yet exist.
Your failings may never give birth to sin.

Ezekiel 18:21 talks simply about stopping sinning and doing righteous things, get life.
18:24 Stopping righteous things and sinning, get death.

It is about the present and ones approach. Now a sinner can always repent and a
righteous person go back to sin. But the consequences will be worked through.

This is Gods way, where you finish is your fate, not grab the key and you are ok
no matter where you end up. Where you end up is because of what you do and sow,
it is in your hands.

breno785au · Oct 25, 2016

Magenta said:

Magenta, I'd really like to look into those Scriptures. What was John saying when 'they went out from us'? Is he saying that they openly renounced Jesus and turned back to their old lives or what?

P.s. I'm not personally asking you to answer just airing out some thoughts

eternally-gratefull · Oct 26, 2016

breno785au said:

in the passage, John called them antichrists, Or people who rejected Christ.

breno785au · Oct 27, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

Aha! Thanks for that, you're right.

RickyZ · Oct 27, 2016

breno785au said:

Wow; wait a second I gotta sit down. Someone here on CC, in the Bible Discussion Forum, actually told someone else they were right?

Blaspheme!

torus · Oct 28, 2016

Yahshua said:

Yes the scriptures are replete with examples of God showing his undeserved mercy in saving folks. But after he does it's our responsibility to remain within his saving protection. If we don't, we can fall away from his protection into the judgment all around us.

Genesis 19:15-19
15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the Lord being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.

18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:

19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:

- The cities were steeped in sin, condemned to destruction
- But Lot found GRACE and MERCY from God
- God SAVED Lot's whole family (including Lot, his two daughters, and his Wife)
- In saving them the angels of God CARRIED THEM outside the city (God's effort)

...But after being saved, the angels of God COMMANDED THEM not to look back or stay; to keep moving from the city of sin (their effort).

Genesis 19:24-26
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

- Lot's wife was saved by the power of God
- Lot's wife was then given a commandment to follow in order to remain saved
- God judges the cities of sin...
- Lot's wife didn't follow that commandment, exposing HERSELF to judgment that was falling
- Lot's wife was no longer saved

Exodus 12:7, 12-13 {brackets mine}
7 And they shall take of the {lamb's} blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.

13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

- Israel was saved by the power of God
- Israel was then given a COMMANDMENT to follow in order to remain saved
- God judges ALL of Egypt...but ALL Israel is SAVED because they obeyed his commandment
- Israel travels to Mt. Sinai to receive God's Commands to follow
- God asked Israel whether they agree to OBEY HIS COMMANDS...

Exodus 19:5-8
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him.

8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord.

- Israel agrees to OBEY GOD'S COMMANDS
- God speaks his commands to them
- Moses travels up Mt. Sinai for the tablets

Exodus 32:7-10
7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou brought out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshiped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiff necked people:

10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

- Israel turns back to the ways of Egypt, sparking the wrath of God
- ALL of Israel, though saved from EGYPT, were ALL about to die
- Moses intercedes so all do not perish at the hand of God's judgment
- Israel is SAVED AGAIN, given MERCY though they didn't deserve it
- Moses judges the people himself, asking all "who is on God's side?"
- 3000 people decided they weren't by implication, so they died (no longer saved)

Then you have Israel not obeying the command to enter into Canaan, where God was finally fed up and made them wander the wilderness for 40 years until everyone who was faithless (shown by their lack of obedience) died off. So a person who is once saved can no longer be saved if they knowingly refuse to obey God when clear instructions are there to do so. Rebellion.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 & 10
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved

- We know that repenting and then accepting Christ as lord SAVES the believer
- But "rebellion" means "a refusal of obedience to an authority"
- So these "rebels" are believers by implication who refuse to obey God
- Paul then says these rebels will NOT BE SAVED because they refuse to love the truth

Now, questioning faith is exactly what the phrase implies: There's genuine doubt; lack of surety, which is completely different from rebellion (i.e. knowingly opposing God once one has the truth).

Matthew 14:29
29“Come,” said Jesus. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water, and came toward Jesus.

30 But when he saw the strength of the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”

31 Immediately Jesus reached out His hand and took hold of Peter. “You of little faith,” He said, “why did you doubt?”

- Peter by faith in Christ walked on water
- But Peter let his senses dictate what was truth instead of his faith
- But we're supposed to walk by faith and not by sight
- So Peter started to doubt and so started to sink
- Christ was there to save him

Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

A person can lose their salvation through outright rebellion after knowing the truth (Hebrews 10:26), but questioning one's faith is more about letting fear and doubt weaken it and doesn't lead to a loss in salvation.

So what of Peter, who denied Jesus Christ 3x, even cursing the 3rd time. It was Jesus Christ who made the moves to restore him. Can any of us keep ourselves saved? How can we do that when we couldn't save ourselves in the first place?

You Quote the OT which was before Christ, at a time when people were under the Law. The Law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. We are saved by grace thru faith, not of works (Law). You know the scripture for this. All of us here probably know it. Your Heb. verse speaks of faith, not of works.

breno785au · Oct 28, 2016

RickyZ said:

lol, i didn't think of that when I posted, you're right, it is amazing!

breno785au · Oct 28, 2016

On another note, I was thinking about salvation on the way home from work...How do some of us, including myself, view salvation? Do we see it as a rite of passage? A legal binding contract that can be broken by either party? Or do we see it as adoption? That we become part of a family, taken in as children? He is our Father, you are my brother and sister, we are family...and what are we teaching others new to the faith? Are we helping them understand this reality that we BELONG to God? I don't think i'm even reassured in this enough myself!

Grace777x70 · Oct 28, 2016

breno785au said:

Amen...if we would just preach and teach Christ Himself and what He has already done for us - then we would have none of this OSAS verses losing one's salvation debates which only cause division and strife amongst us. Preach Christ and everything will fall into it's rightful place.

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

resurrection33 · Oct 28, 2016

renewed_hope said:

Life goes well when we obey the Lord’s commands and does not go well when we don’t. It’ll always be that way.

[17] "Yet your people say, `The way of the Lord is not just'; when it is their own way that is not just.
[18] When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it.
[19] And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it.
[20] Yet you say, `The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways." Ezekiel 33:17-20 RSV

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Loss of salvation versus questioning our faith

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