Loss of salvation versus questioning our faith

PeterJens · Oct 22, 2016

I see your world now. For you belief in Christ is to be totally saved, nothing you do can separate
you from Christ, all sin forgiven. You become irrelevant once this is accepted.
To believe sin or loss of faith can take this away is a denial of this kind of faith in the first place.

In this world belief in Christ is linked to total absolution. But this is not Christ or reality.

Now in the christian world belief does not enclose you in salvation, it establishes a relationship.
The basis of this relationship is being made holy, cleansed through the cross of Christ. This is the walk
of salvation, but not its end. The end is to be found in Christ.

Now in this reference, loosing this link or it being assured forever is a faith position of less significance
than the establishment of the communion with Christ.

What you have created is a different faith.

So I can never be saved in your way, because this is not the Kingdom of heaven, it is the prison
of heaven, without rule or constraint or life.

Your fundamentally deny the relationship or the give and take between friends, which explains your
total agression and lack of awareness of what you are trampling on.

This whole approach destroys all the testimony through Israel, the prophets, Jesus and the apostles.
It is so without form or focus, it is dangerous and deceptive.

Now how can you say the words "God cannot hear your prayers"
Wow. What presumption and arrogance. This is enough for me to say you are simply apostate.
Anyone on earth can pray to God, which is the whole point.

I also understand why you say OSAS is the gate to your world. In one sense this is true, but
your world is not the world of Christ Jesus I know.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 22, 2016

PeterJens said:

The only other option is we have to earn our salvation. Did you not say you do not teach this, I think you have just been exposed.. You do teach works. thank you.

lol.. I am irrevelent, as far as being able to save myself. But God loved me so much When I was his enemy, And knowing everything I would do in my life.. yet he still died for me, and offered me eternal life.

But I know. you think you are something.

You just outed yourself.. SInce you believe sin and loss of faith CAN take it away.. So I guess you deny faith? Well I already know the answer to that

Belief in Christ never saved anyone, FAITH SAVES.

get this right,,

I never said belief does this, Faith does. And faith is what causes the relationship. Not works.

I thought you said you knew what I believed, All you did was prove you have no idea what I believe.

peter when you want to listen and understand what I believe, Come ask. Until then, you would be wise to stop talking. Because you keep making the same mistake.. That's what go you into trouble in the first place.. ANd here we are months later. and your still doing it..

PeterJens · Oct 22, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

EG - You do not understand conceptual models. Everything works in terms of layers.
One principle lays on top of another. If you get it wrong, then the whole building is wrong.

Ethics also work like this. People can appear to be following things in one way, but if one
situation comes about everything changes, and suddenly people feel lost.

So we appear to be following the same faith. But works has nothing to do with this.
You follow a one ticket solution. The funny thing is your faith has a condition on it.
If you do not believe it absolves you of everything past, present and future it is not faith.

But this is not Christs offer or words. Believe on Christ and you will be saved. It does not
even specify how or why, just believe on Him. So you have ended up adding a condition
onto scripture so therefore fail completely in your belief system. It appears to be true,
except it is not. Word FAKE should be stamped all over it, reject...

gb9 · Oct 22, 2016

PeterJens said:

EG - You do not understand conceptual models. Everything works in terms of layers.
One principle lays on top of another. If you get it wrong, then the whole building is wrong.

Ethics also work like this. People can appear to be following things in one way, but if one
situation comes about everything changes, and suddenly people feel lost.

So we appear to be following the same faith. But works has nothing to do with this.
You follow a one ticket solution. The funny thing is your faith has a condition on it.
If you do not believe it absolves you of everything past, present and future it is not faith.

But this is not Christs offer or words. Believe on Christ and you will be saved. It does not
even specify how or why, just believe on Him. So you have ended up adding a condition
onto scripture so therefore fail completely in your belief system. It appears to be true,
except it is not. Word FAKE should be stamped all over it, reject...

and here is the mind of a works salvationist= layers, processes, lists, steps. grace-faith-good works?? not here!

eternally-gratefull · Oct 22, 2016

PeterJens said:

My salvation has layers

1. I am a sinner, condemned by the law and under a curse (death)
2. Jesus came, fulfilled the aw. and became a curse in my place
3. Because of this, God can offer me complete forgiveness based on his sons completed work on the cross
4. I repent, I trust him, he saved me completely based on his sons work

If we add any layers. we are adding our own works. And that is legalism.

Jesus said if I trust in him, I will never hunger, never thirst Live forever, Never die, Have eternal life, and be risen on the last day.

Either you believe him or you do not.. I do trust him Peter. that is WHY I AM SAVED.

So, what will it take for you to trust him?

posthuman · Oct 22, 2016

PeterJens said:

This a sword with two edges, a road with a ditch on either side.

i agree brother what to follow right is to preach Christ risen. Christ mighty to save, sovereign, fully able and fully willing to freely give all grace according to faith working through love.

A real, effective redemption.

posthuman · Oct 22, 2016

PeterJens said:

dude, i am His willing servant in the kingdom.

For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman;
likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave.
(1 Corinthians 7:22)

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 6:20-23)

it is the effective regeneration of the will that provides rule, by the new nature and the Spirit which accompanies and accomplishes it that constrains.

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
(2 Corinthians 5:14-19)

Jruiz · Oct 22, 2016

AbigailZeke said:

Actually repentance is to change ones mind. It's acknowledging your sins and turning away from them. As long as I obide in Christ,I'm forgiven..You can't live in unrepentant sin and expect to be forgiven,other wise you took what Jesus has done on the cross to be in vain. If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left. Hebrews 10:26

Gr8grace · Oct 22, 2016

renewed_hope said:

My personal experience says, "how can anyone question their salvation after they have been saved!?"

BUT, the word teaches that there are many who question it and few who choose to finish the race(ongoing sanctification/experiential sanctification.). He saves us unconditionally and eternally, but few choose to follow Him after their SURE salvation.

They will lose rewards and a host of eternal blessings............but not their salvation.

And I know as well as you, I can post all the clear verses on eternal security and they will just be PITTED against other verses.

John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

AbigailZeke · Oct 22, 2016

Jruiz said:

You are right in that repentance literally means to change one's mind, which, only furthers my point. Faith in Jesus alone leads you to a change of mind about Him, about sin and everything else.

Jruiz · Oct 22, 2016

chancer said:

Let's not make mountains out of mole hills...He was rejecting and confronting her theology.

Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. 2Timothy 4:2 ..And yes, everything needs to be done in love.

Gr8grace · Oct 22, 2016

AbigailZeke said:

I was saved later in life. It is great to see believers like you that are far ahead of me and YOUNG. It instills hope for me.

I honestly would love to see youngsters that were ahead of me. But it seems that age is a biggie to most believers.

AN 8 year old can more spiritually mature then an 80 year old. And that truth is not of this world.

Appreciate you more than you know.

Grace777x70 · Oct 23, 2016

Originally Posted by AbigailZeke

You are right in that repentance literally means to change one's mind, which, only furthers my point. Faith in Jesus alone leads you to a change of mind about Him, about sin and everything else.

Gr8grace said:

Amen..I agree.

We can be a Christian for 60 years, be a pastor of a church for 40 years, pray 5 hours a day, go to church every time the doors are open, read Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, be able to quote 1/2 of the bible - and still be a baby Christian.

True maturity "in Christ" is seen in behavior as 2 Peter 2:1-2 shows us. If we have malice, slander, envy, deceit and hypocrisy towards others in the body of Christ - then we are baby Christians.

garee · Oct 23, 2016

renewed_hope said:

Doubt is not the opposite of faith, unbelief(no faith) is..

When a born again Christ denies Christ in unbelief, the same Spirit of grace that called them to salvation calls them back.

Then because we are freely given ears to His voice tuning us towards Him who has no form.... we then can repent . The unbeliever that has not the faith of God faith working in them, seeing if any man has not the spirit of Christ they do not belong to Christ. They will be given a strong delusion to continue to believe the lie .

It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.2Ti 2:11

If Christ has begun the good work of salvation in us He will finish it till the last day, the day of Christ.

valiant · Oct 23, 2016

PeterJens said:

That is correct, praise God

Y

only to heretics.

Sin cannot take it way as it is paid for, nor can temporary loss of faith. Permanent loss of faith has never been real faith to begin with.

.

Amen. That is what He promised (1 Cor i.8-9; Phil 2.6; etc)

Salvation from the guilt of sin is GOD'S work. And He encloses us within it. Underneath are the everlasting arms.

The beginning is found in Christ, as is the continuation and the end.

both are equally important

from yours yes. His is the same as Christ taught,

Grace777x70 · Oct 23, 2016

valiant said:

Originally Posted by PeterJens

I see your world now. For you belief in Christ is to be totally saved, nothing you do can separate
you from Christ, all sin forgiven.

- That is correct, praise God

You become irrelevant once this is accepted.

- only to heretics.

To believe sin or loss of faith can take this away is a denial of this kind of faith in the first place.

- Sin cannot take it way as it is paid for, nor can temporary loss of faith. Permanent loss of faith has never been real faith to begin with.

In this world belief in Christ is linked to total absolution

- Amen. That is what He promised (1 Cor i.8-9; Phil 2.6; etc)

Now in the christian world belief does not enclose you in salvation, it establishes a relationship.

- Salvation from the guilt of sin is GOD'S work. And He encloses us within it. Underneath are the everlasting arms.

The basis of this relationship is being made holy, cleansed through the cross of Christ. This is the walk
of salvation, but not its end. The end is to be found in Christ.

- The beginning is found in Christ, as is the continuation and the end.

Now in this reference, loosing this link or it being assured forever is a faith position of less significance
than the establishment of the communion with Christ.

- both are equally important

What you have created is a different faith.

- from yours yes. His is the same as Christ taught,

,

Amen...well said. I love how you preach the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and that it is by grace through faith only.

royalscot · Oct 23, 2016

when was salvation , yours to give.

how did your get it. so how ,can you lose something you had no part in achieving by your own efforts.

25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith---27 to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.Romans 16

obedience of faith, is believing the prophetic writing that you can read.

5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.1 Corinthians 2: Proclaiming Christ Crucified

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast Ephesians 2: By Grace Through Faith

And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, etc

Radius · Oct 23, 2016

I heard a great analogy about saving faith, as small as a mustard seed. It is, was, and will always be God who keeps you even when you think you have lost it.

"The validity of faith is not determined by its passion or sincerity.

If i have passion and sincere faith in thin ice, when I walk out on to that thin ice I'm going through. I don't care how passionate or sincere my faith is.

If i have a little bit of faith in thick ice, when I walk out on the ice it holds me up. The validity of faith is not determined by my intensity of passion or by my sincerity. The validity of faith is determined by the reliability of the OBJECT that I put my faith in.

So, Jesus said if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, that's Good! As long as that faith is in Him.

if I put my faith in me, then I'm on thin ice."

--Cliffe Knechtle

ps: I love his Youtube channel where he talks to college kids on campus. Here is his channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKr-liguaGWMf3f94eQXsug

RickyZ · Oct 25, 2016

InSpiritInTruth said:

Sorry for the delay, I'm on the road a lot these days and hate trying to do this on a tablet or phone.

The Bible is, among other things, a big long list of everything that separates us from God (including those things spoken of by Jesus and Paul). Murder, adultery, greed et al, all you have to do is commit one of these (and only once) and you fail. Which we all have.

Which is why, for salvation, forgiveness of sins is a once-for-life thing. Once we accept Christ God no longer sees our sin, as far as salvation goes. Because, even when saved, we will again fail. It's inevitable. Sin, past present and future, is forgiven at salvation. Sin no longer has power over salvation.

BUT - and here's where the license to sin crowd goes wrong - in this life sin doe still have consequences. Once you submit to a spiritual (or fleshly) authority in sin, you are submitted to that authority until you confess the sin and repent of /' rebuke it. Give in to lust and lust will dog you. That's one consequence of sin post- salvation.

The second is, that when God gathers us to be with Him, he will judge us. Those who build upon bad works will suffer loss - but they will still be saved. "As the thru the fire" he says.

Sin has consequences, even for the believer. But the one consequence not in play is salvation. Salvation forgiveness covers your entire lifetime.

Your proposal has one problem - having decided that sin can cost you your salvation, now you have to quantify it. How much sin will take salvation away? 1 murder? 2? 1 murder, 2 adulteries, and a sin to be named later? Where in the Bible does God describe a breaking point? He doesn't - because as far as He is concerned, accepting Christ eliminates the eternal death consequence of sin forever. Not the corporal consequences - they remain. But the salvation consequence ceases to exist.

Salvation is gained only thru a conscious decision to accept Christ. Forfeiting salvation can only be done by a conscious decision to reject Christ. It's really that simple.

PeterJens · Oct 25, 2016

I realise people do not see the game they are in. Sin is a word that can be, you were rude to
me and I am hurt, or you murdered by family in the most horrible sadistic way.

There is a difference, though people want to talk about perfection and ultimates, sin and
different level of sin matter.

Salvation is a relationship with God, through Christ. Its foundation is an understanding of
rightousness, purity and love, with a desire to walk in these things.

There is always a gap between desire and ability, but that is the walk with Jesus and
transformation.

Once you start by saying we have arrived, we are perfect, sin is dealt with, nothing
more is needed, this is pure hypocracy. We only get grace, a period of commitment
and righteousness for a time, to bridge the gap between where we are and where
we need to be. It is our walk and our faith that is the means through which God will
change us.

Paul and the apostles were very aware of this battle and walk. The old man, all that
came from before, and the new creation, that which is laid as a foundation upon which
we build and grow.

Ambition is always admirable, but delivery matters. The whole point of salvation is
communion and the walk so if you dwell in neither you are not saved.

The lie of dualists is a worldly man, claiming status with Christ but doing nothing and
progressing no where. The more they walk, the more they are aware of the gap which
is explained as deeper maturity, rather than getting deeper into being lost.

There is no security is forgiveness of future sin, because you are not going to sin in
the future so is irrelevant. If you believe you need this you are already in unbelief that
God can transform into the likeness of His son. So rather than this being freedom it is
disbelief.

And each "sin" you are aware of should be counted and questions asked as to what it
is and why it is there. Sins are not vast, infinite, undefinable, that is what a sinful heart
will always argue. And righteousness is not about repression and control, but love
springing from your heart because you do love and do not fear the future.

How broken are you? How willing are you to change? So you know how far repentance
and grief and mourning go?

Most I have met do not know the meaning of these words and they have lived happy
safe lives, and everything is geared to make this continue, yet they will lecture about
future sin forgiven and have a seared conscience with no fear of judgement or reality in
their hearts for a second.

Hell is no joke, and the end of our souls is for real. We are talking eternal transformation
from a world of sin and death, to a world of perfection, love and righteousness. Do you
think this is just wave a wand and it is done, or pray a prayer and you have arrived?

Loss of salvation versus questioning our faith

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