Loss of salvation.

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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#62

Hmm.. first off thanks for your answer. Let's check the Scriptures together to see if your answer jives with it completely.

2 Co 1:21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Not much of a guarantee then. Also please notice this Scripture also says it is "God who establishes us".

And you didn't explain how a person goes back to being the old man? Because I have a real issue grappling my mind around this one here. Cuz my Bible says...

Colossians 3:3 3For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

This is a real conundrum isn't it? Because it says we died and now every part of us is found in Christ, so if we lose our salvation (or if Holy Spirit left us even though He promised to never forsake us) we have nothing to go back to. Cuz the old man is DEAD. And now the new man is found in Christ.

Paul goes so far to say that we no longer no ourselves by the flesh?

16From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Hmm, another issue cuz it says the old has passed and the new is here. So now in Christ we are no longer known by the flesh, and we don't even have the old to return to!


So we simply just become lost again and there's no way for us to repent back to saved status? Is that what you're saying... oh man that's even scarier... this is going to make prison ministry difficult Ralph.

I like the passage where we are tood Christ has perfected us forever, seems like forever does not mean forever to some folks, like eternal does not mean eternal, they are just religious words we should not take literally,
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
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#63
What's a real conundrum is that the very next verse (Col 3:4) says to deaden our earthly members. If the old man is dead what sense does it make to put the old man to death?
I love that you brought this up! In order to find unity in Scripture, I have thought and prayed over the same thing.

We need to be renewed in the spirit of our minds, the works has been accomplished in Christ, but now we must put to death the old to see the evidence of it (Romans 12:1-2).

Ephesians 4:20But that is not the way you learned Christ!—21assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus,

Paul is about to explain the finished work of what Christ did. This is our bird's eye view into what they taught new believers.

22to put off your old self,[SUP]f[/SUP] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

When he says, "former manner of life" Paul is explaining the old has passed away.... and then he says the new has come... but notice we are simply being renewed in "our minds" because the work has been done, but now we are growing in maturity to be able to see what has been done. The key here is understanding that we are now in Christ and we are being taught by Holy Spirit what has been given to us.

1 Cor 2:12
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

Notice it says, "freely given", Christ paid for it and Holy Spirit helps us understand it.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
#64
This probably won't be a long thread BUT

I would like ask those who believe that we can lose salvation the following.

At what point does one lose their salvation?
What would cause this to happen?
Would you know who has lost it?
Cannot answer question #1 nor Can I answer Question #3

However, the 2nd Question has only one answer!..."They were not TRULY saved"

 

mcubed

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2013
1,449
218
63
#65
This probably won't be a long thread BUT

I would like ask those who believe that we can lose salvation the following.

At what point does one lose their salvation?
What would cause this to happen?
Would you know who has lost it?

It would apply when Messiah was just a weak pethic nothing and His blood was worthless. Or you live than 1 second after salvation and only have one second to sin. So all who did not die immediately after salvation according to some you will go to hell. I sugest go get sved again and die right away.... Lutricus? Yes!!!! So is losing your salvation....
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
83
#66
This probably won't be a long thread BUT

I would like ask those who believe that we can lose salvation the following.

At what point does one lose their salvation?
What would cause this to happen?
Would you know who has lost it?[/QUOTE)

Well it depends how they lost it. It is possible for a prodigal to regain their salvation, but not possible for those who knew the truth and knew that God is good. For example, if I who have been in Christ's church all my life, who knows the truth, and have tasted and known that God is good (spiritually), if I left Christ's church to become Muslim and worship Muhammad, I can never return, I have lost my salvation forever. But if I purposely left the church to live in the world and sow my wild oats, as long as I'm still on this earth I can come back to the Father and regain my salvation.

Well it's pretty obvious to know that if someone left the church (body of Christ) for years that they are a prodigal son and currently in an unsafe spiritual state. And you know if someone leaves Christ to worship another that they can never regain their salvation. The bible says you will know them by their fruit. Still, only God knows for certain. What if they want to go but can't?

 

Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
346
22
18
#67

Hmm.. first off thanks for your answer. Let's check the Scriptures together to see if your answer jives with it completely.
In the OT, this is exactly what happened in the Temple...... the Glory departed. Ichabod.

The NT has something a little similar.

1 Corinthians 6:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

1 Corinthians 3:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#68


I love that you brought this up! In order to find unity in Scripture, I have thought and prayed over the same thing.

We need to be renewed in the spirit of our minds, the works has been accomplished in Christ, but now we must put to death the old to see the evidence of it (Romans 12:1-2).

Ephesians 4:20But that is not the way you learned Christ!—21assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus,

Paul is about to explain the finished work of what Christ did. This is our bird's eye view into what they taught new believers.

22to put off your old self,[SUP]f[/SUP] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

When he says, "former manner of life" Paul is explaining the old has passed away.... and then he says the new has come... but notice we are simply being renewed in "our minds" because the work has been done, but now we are growing in maturity to be able to see what has been done. The key here is understanding that we are now in Christ and we are being taught by Holy Spirit what has been given to us.

1 Cor 2:12
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

Notice it says, "freely given", Christ paid for it and Holy Spirit helps us understand it.
What Ephesians 4:22 really says is to put off our former pattern of behavior, which Paul describes as "the old man". He's not referring to a state of being, or a person, but how we formerly conducted ourselves in life due to a degenerate heart and corrupted mind. The "old man" can flare up at anytime because our bad nature hasn't gone anywhere. It's simply a matter of whether we do its longings or the longings of the holy spirit. Putting off the old man is not doing the flesh's will, and conversely putting on the new man is doing the holy spirit's will. This is a more literal translation of verse 22:

for you to put aside according to the former behavior, the old man, the one being corrupt according to the desires of the deception; Ephesians 4:22

There is also some question whether the aorist verb create in Ephesians 4:24 is correctly translated as past tense (created). Present tense makes more sense (being created), but I won't get into that other than to say that the traditional rule to always translate aorist as past tense is incorrect, as numerous scripture verses attest.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#69
Salvation CAN NOT be lost, however NONE have recieved it yet:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the distress of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming. O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Exodus 32:31-33, “And Mosheh returned to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and said, “Oh, these people have sinned a great sin, and have made for themselves a mighty one of gold! and now, if You would forgive their sin, but if not, please blot me out of Your book which You have written. and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]said to Mosheh, whoever has sinned against Me, I blot him out of My book.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 69:27-28, "Add iniquity to their iniquity! Let them not come into Your righteousness! May they be blotted out of The Book of Life, and not be written with the righteous!"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 3:5, "He who overcomes, the same will be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name from The Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His malakim."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 10:36, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of Yah you may receive what is promised.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 3:14, “For we have become partakers of Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
False........again!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#70
Complete nonsense as usual!
Just ignore everything that doesn't support your "theology", I mean house of cards...

Plenty of texts already shared on this thread that plainly and unambiguously teach assurance of salvation...
and plenty more will no doubt still be shared!
He is not the only one who pushes and espouses cracker jack theology........post 50 reeks as well....
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#71
Be sure to give yourself kudos for pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps and continuing to believe/trust in Him. ;)
The only thing he set us straight on is how much his theology is comparable to Saturday Morning Cartoons from the 70's! His 1st statement in post 50 has got to be one of the top 10 most ignorant statements I have ever read.....
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#74
Be sure to give yourself kudos for pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps and continuing to believe/trust in Him. ;)
If I had to do my believing all by myself without God's encouragement you'd have a point. But as it is, God not only gives the faith to trust but constantly encourages the believer to keep trusting in Christ. There is no boast possible in doing the believing that is only possible because of God's help.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
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#75

1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

Notice it says, "freely given", Christ paid for it and Holy Spirit helps us understand it.
If you received not the spirit of the world then you would understand that the things freely given is because if you received the word of God then you would receive the Spirit of Truth which gave the seed being freely sown.

For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
1 Thess 2:13

So when you received the word of God, then did you believe it was the truth? If you did then why you receive it freely, I will tell you why it is freely given see Proverbs 23:23
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,261
113
South
adelaiderevival.com
#76
This probably won't be a long thread BUT
I would like ask those who believe that we can lose salvation the following.

At what point does one lose their salvation?
What would cause this to happen?
Would you know who has lost it?

I could answer you questions quite easily through the scriptures.
But what is the point of posting any truth in the BDF.
In the end people just believe what makes them happy.

But in a nutshell > unbelief ...
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#77

2 Co 1:21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Not much of a guarantee then.

The guarantee is for what the Holy Spirit secures, not that you will always have the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit in salvation is secured through trust in Christ. A return to unbelief will cause you to eventually lose the Holy Spirit. You have to have the Holy Spirit to have that which the presence of the Holy Spirit guarantees.





Also please notice this Scripture also says it is "God who establishes us".

Well, we sure didn't establish ourselves. But that hardly means we didn't do anything to be established by God. We had to trust in Christ. And that is how you will stay established--through your trusting. Not through your working, but through your trusting. Work is just how you can tell if you are really trusting.





And you didn't explain how a person goes back to being the old man?

You go back to your old self when/if the Holy Spirit leaves your body. The Holy Spirit is secured through believing/trusting. So keep believing so you don't lose the Holy Spirit because of unbelief.




Because I have a real issue grappling my mind around this one here. Cuz my Bible says...


Colossians 3:3 3For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

This is a real conundrum isn't it? Because it says we died and now every part of us is found in Christ, so if we lose our salvation (or if Holy Spirit left us even though He promised to never forsake us) we have nothing to go back to. Cuz the old man is DEAD.

The old man was not a literal living organism of some kind. The old man is the old you, your way of thinking, what you value, etc. Without the Holy Spirit you'll just go back to being that old 'you' with your old ways of thinking and behaving.




So we simply just become lost again and there's no way for us to repent back to saved status?

Correct.

If you go back to unbelief, like the Galatians did, and God decides you've played your games long enough he makes it so you can never come back to repentance. Then all you have left to look forward to is the wrath of God reserved for his enemies.

Because you no longer believe in Christ He can't save you at the judgment. The condition for salvation is present tense believing. If you don't have that, or don't have it anymore, you forfeit the justification/salvation that believing secures.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#78
...what is the point of posting any truth in the BDF.
In the end people just believe what makes them happy.

But in a nutshell > unbelief ...
This is true. I was just thinking this today.

This is what missionaries call a 'burned over field'.

I'm praying for some fertile ground to plant seeds in. God will lead me to it.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#79
[/SIZE]
I could answer you questions quite easily through the scriptures.
But what is the point of posting any truth in the BDF.
In the end people just believe what makes them happy.

But in a nutshell > unbelief ...[/SIZE]
If a man that lays up treasure for himself is not rich towards God then where better a place seeing he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#80
This is true. I was just thinking this today.

This is what missionaries call a 'burned over field'.

I'm praying for some fertile ground to plant seeds in. God will lead me to it.
So you understand not the fragments?

17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?
Mark 8:17-21