Loss of salvation.

[Ralph-]

Scripture is overwhelmingly literal. When Jesus says I say to you unless a man be born again... He's not being figurative.

I believe that being born again is quite literal. You literally become a different person when the Holy Spirit is in.


"The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person."-1 Samuel 10: 6


See? The Spirit doesn't birth a literal entity when you are born again. It births a new and refreshed 'you', a different person with different thoughts, different ambitions, a new and different mind set (Romans 8:5). And it is quite literal. It's literally the birth of a new mindset, not a literal birth of a baby.


"6The mind governed by the flesh is death (the old you), but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace (the new you)."-Romans 8:6


When you understand this it is easy to see how the Spirit can simply leave you and you just go back to your old mindset, the old you.

 

[dcontroversal]

amen, the bible says in three places i can grieve the HS who is in me, it never says he will leave me.

Amen......can you imagine the fallacy of that argument....like a revolving door at the Sydney Fish Market.......coming and going like a car hop at A&W in the 70's......pure ignorance!

 

[Cee]

I believe that being born again is quite literal. You literally become a different person when the Holy Spirit is in.


[/FONT]"The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person."-1 Samuel 10: 6


See? The Spirit doesn't birth a literal entity when you are born again. It births a new and refreshed 'you', a different person with different thoughts, different ambitions, a new and different mind set (Romans 8:5). And it is quite literal. It's literally the birth of a new mindset, not a literal birth of a baby.


[/SIZE]"6The mind governed by the flesh is death (the old you), but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace (the new you)."-Romans 8:6


When you understand this it is easy to see how the Spirit can simply leave you and you just go back to your old mindset, the old you.

Your interpretation flies in the face of other Scriptures.

Namely, Jesus says we must be born again and compares our fleshly birth with it, but also the numerous Scripture that say we become like children, infants, and talk about needing to grow up in Christ. Or Paul praying for the spiritual eyes of their hearts to be opened...

If you continue in Romans 8 you’ll see Paul’s argument, is that if we are in Christ we are not governed by the flesh but by the Spirit. But this is even deeper that that, because it’s Paul renewing their minds to what’s available in Christ.

I’m not sure why I get in these discussions, I usually leave them feeling not much had happened. Ultimately, we end up just proving ourselves more right.

I dont have an issue with why you’re teaching people can lose their salvation, I get it. If we keep people fearful they will continue to believe. Unfortunately in my experience it doesn’t work. It doesn’t create true from the heart lovers of God or His people. It doesn’t fully allow people to embrace His forgiveness, His nearness, or the power of what Christ did in a very literal sense. People are rooted by false wisdom from a sense lead reality when you neuter the spiritual this creates double mindedness. Not faith.

Unfortunately to many people God is a Book and a Guy who lived 2000 years ago, who is waiting in Heaven to judge them if they are going to hell or not. And this loses the beauty of so many things in Christ. I have seen the power of the true transformative gospel change lives! People love more, enjoy His Scriptures, help homeless, pray for sick, etc. Real transformation!

And inversely I have gone toe to toe with people who refuse to embrace a higher truth, who in the background are struggling with addictions, anger, and so many other things, not that you are, but it saddens me that people struggle with these things that Christ paid for. I’m happy to say this particular guy a few years later came to me to share he encountered by God and set free, his entire life was changed by the power of the gospel.

But when we say things like oh God simply have you a new mindset or things like you better keep believing because at heart you’re still that same wicked sinner... so you better self-discipline yourself... it’s just simply religion. May we both be lead by the Spirit of God into His full freedom body, soul, and spirit. And our lives invite others into the same.

 

[Zmouth]

So Jesus says be reborn of the Spirit, figurative also?

Jesus does not say be reborn of the Spirit, that is what you read since the but he did say that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:5

 

[Jason1975]

It's about the path you choose. If you know the correct path and choose that it's not the correct path for you... then, would God force you to take His path? ... no.

But we have to know the path first... because we can only be held accountable according to the knowledge we have. without knowledge we remain a state of innocence... and God doesn't punish the innocent by sending them away. So... we must learn.. and choose... and hopefully we will remain on that better path. If we choose the better path and decide we enjoy all the things we should repent of... and stop repenting ... then we knowingly spit upon the grace we are offered.

I doubt many would.. but some will.

 

[Ariel82]

This probably won't be a long thread BUT

I would like ask those who believe that we can lose salvation the following.

At what point does one lose their salvation?
What would cause this to happen?
Would you know who has lost it?

I would ask the opposite question:

How do you know when you are saved?

What would cause this to happen?

Would you be able to identify others who are saved also?

 

[Ariel82]

Salvation CAN NOT be lost, however NONE have recieved it yet:

You don't think anyone has received salvation yet?

Hmmm...that explains a lot.

 

[Ariel82]

Now I have some questions for you: knowing every man has been given a measure of faith, and we have been saved by grace through faith,
1. Who is using this faith, Jesus or us?
2. Since the New Covenant is between God & man(God's grace & man using his gift of faith), how can some people justify a salvation when man quits believing & rebels, breaking the New Covenant?
[/SIZE]

Answer to question is Jesus is using our faith and adding to if virtue, knowledge, self control, perseverance, brotherly kindness and agape love.

Question 2 reveals what you expect folks to say to question 1.

Have you ever read the prodigal son story?

That would be the answer to question 2.

 

[Bladerunner]

Jesus does not say be reborn of the Spirit, that is what you read since the but he did say that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:5

Butttttttt...Man's 1st birth was of water.....His Rebirth is of Spirit......Yes, Jesus is saying we are reborn in the spirit.

 

[Didymous]

Sometimes I feel like I lose my salvation just from wandering into the BDF.

: )

Ah! Thanks for the best laugh I've had all day!

 

[Tina2018]

But of the book of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou readest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam and eve did not have to keep eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, one bite and they were dead (spiritually) their fate was sealed.

I assume one bite from the tree of life is all that is needed to seal our fate which is everlasting life.

Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”


John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

We were given the right to eat from the tree of life

Revelation 22:14
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Salvation CAN NOT be lost, however NONE have received it yet

Then you will need to clearly explain what justification and the New Birth are all about. In your own words.

 

[Zmouth]

Butttttttt...Man's 1st birth was of water.....His Rebirth is of Spirit......Yes, Jesus is saying we are reborn in the spirit.

All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. Gen 7:22

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8

So where does the wind go seeing that you are hearing the moving air molecules and not the wind that moves them.

 

[beta]

Then you will need to clearly explain what justification and the New Birth are all about. In your own words.

.

Given my present understanding I must agree with Shamah. NO Human apart from JESUS has yet been declared the 'Son/Daughter of God with power according to the spirit of holiness BY YHE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD Rom 1v4; Joh 3v13.

At present we have not yet experienced the 'New Birth' which would be literally INTO the Kingdom of God in the resurrection from the dead - New body an' all....Now we are still 'in this body of flesh which is in the natural world.
NOW we are only BEGOTTEN of God being 'prepared for the Kgd - not yet born of God Phil 3v21.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So where does the wind go seeing that you are hearing the moving air molecules and not the wind that moves them.

As Scripture says, the wind goes where it wishes or it wills. You can't see it but you can hear it.

 

[Zmouth]

As Scripture says, the wind goes where it wishes or it wills. You can't see it but you can hear it.

LOL, no the wind does not go where it wishes or where it will, but the wind goeth according to his circuits.

 

[beta]

amen, the bible says in three places i can grieve the HS who is in me, it never says he will leave me.

It does not say He will leave you, but what if you leave Him ? where is your guarantee that you never will ???
Heb 6v4-5-6 !!!

 

[fredoheaven]

amen, the bible says in three places i can grieve the HS who is in me, it never says he will leave me.

You are absolutely right! For who can unseal that which was sealed by the Holy Spirit? None, as far as the Bible is concerned.

God bless

 

[PennEd]

It does not say He will leave you, but what if you leave Him ? where is your guarantee that you never will ???
Heb 6v4-5-6 !!!

Although a sheep may wander away, the Lord will do what He has to retrieve or draw him back. The sheep doesn't wander away and then morph into a goat.

Luke 15:[FONT=&quot]4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]John tells us that those who APPEAR to be Christian, that leave Him, PROVE by the very fact that they don't come back, that they were NEVER a saved "sheep", or Christian to begin with:

[/FONT][h=1]1 John 2:19 New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.[/FONT]

 

[Ralph-]

Your interpretation flies in the face of other Scriptures.

Namely, Jesus says we must be born again and compares our fleshly birth with it, but also the numerous Scripture that say we become like children, infants, and talk about needing to grow up in Christ. Or Paul praying for the spiritual eyes of their hearts to be opened...

If you continue in Romans 8 you’ll see Paul’s argument, is that if we are in Christ we are not governed by the flesh but by the Spirit. But this is even deeper that that, because it’s Paul renewing their minds to what’s available in Christ.

I’m not sure why I get in these discussions, I usually leave them feeling not much had happened. Ultimately, we end up just proving ourselves more right.

I dont have an issue with why you’re teaching people can lose their salvation, I get it. If we keep people fearful they will continue to believe. Unfortunately in my experience it doesn’t work. It doesn’t create true from the heart lovers of God or His people. It doesn’t fully allow people to embrace His forgiveness, His nearness, or the power of what Christ did in a very literal sense. People are rooted by false wisdom from a sense lead reality when you neuter the spiritual this creates double mindedness. Not faith.

Unfortunately to many people God is a Book and a Guy who lived 2000 years ago, who is waiting in Heaven to judge them if they are going to hell or not. And this loses the beauty of so many things in Christ. I have seen the power of the true transformative gospel change lives! People love more, enjoy His Scriptures, help homeless, pray for sick, etc. Real transformation!

And inversely I have gone toe to toe with people who refuse to embrace a higher truth, who in the background are struggling with addictions, anger, and so many other things, not that you are, but it saddens me that people struggle with these things that Christ paid for. I’m happy to say this particular guy a few years later came to me to share he encountered by God and set free, his entire life was changed by the power of the gospel.

But when we say things like oh God simply have you a new mindset or things like you better keep believing because at heart you’re still that same wicked sinner... so you better self-discipline yourself... it’s just simply religion. May we both be lead by the Spirit of God into His full freedom body, soul, and spirit. And our lives invite others into the same.

All you have to know is without the Holy Spirit you will go back to the old man you were before.