Loss of salvation.
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I like you Wags, but the belief that one can lose salvation by unbelief flat denies numerous truths about Jesus and makes Jesus into an inept liar that is weak and cannot keep his word. For salvation to be lost by unbelief after one has been saved the following must be false.
Jesus begins, finishes and completes the work of faith HE BEGAN in us.
We are KEPT by the power of God.
I will LOSE NOTHING THE FATHER has given me, but will raise it up the last day.
IF WE BELIEVE NOT (WRITTEN TO SAVED CHURCH MEMBERS) he abides faithful because he CANNOT DENY HIMSELF <- His righteousnesss has been imputed by faith
Eternal life must not mean eternal, but rather temporal and conditional.
The above scriptures must be denied, rejected, twisted or flat ignored to believe one can lose salvation by unbelief after one has believed and been born from above by I CORRUPTABLE SEED!
No way under the sun will I ever buy it!
Jesus begins, finishes and completes the work of faith HE BEGAN in us.
We are KEPT by the power of God.
I will LOSE NOTHING THE FATHER has given me, but will raise it up the last day.
IF WE BELIEVE NOT (WRITTEN TO SAVED CHURCH MEMBERS) he abides faithful because he CANNOT DENY HIMSELF <- His righteousnesss has been imputed by faith
Eternal life must not mean eternal, but rather temporal and conditional.
The above scriptures must be denied, rejected, twisted or flat ignored to believe one can lose salvation by unbelief after one has believed and been born from above by I CORRUPTABLE SEED!
No way under the sun will I ever buy it!
Wow. So where is the scripture for that? Did God lie when He said....
Ephesians 1:13-14: "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory"
Romans 8:11: "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you"
In fact, the whole of Romans 8 gives assurance to the believer...
Ephesians 1:13-14: "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory"
Romans 8:11: "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you"
In fact, the whole of Romans 8 gives assurance to the believer...
We don't agree on so much, I'm not sure it's even profitable to continue this conversation.
But now I see where your lens is at, you see "believing" as a present work, that we must continue in, in order to have eternal life. So you take all the Scriptures that say we have eternal life and you attach a conditional phrase of "if we continue believing..." Basically God gets us started, but it's us who establish ourselves and keep ourselves. And if we lose our trust, well God just puts us in the burn pile with His enemies. Hope I summed that up properly.
So in your paradigm this Scripture might be difficult for you to reconcile:
Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
God both begins it and He completes it.
We also know through Jesus' teachings that being born of again is a very literal thing, not figurative. You can't be "unborn of God" as this Scripture teaches:
1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
The very presence of our faith shows that we have already overcome the world.
But now I see where your lens is at, you see "believing" as a present work, that we must continue in, in order to have eternal life. So you take all the Scriptures that say we have eternal life and you attach a conditional phrase of "if we continue believing..." Basically God gets us started, but it's us who establish ourselves and keep ourselves. And if we lose our trust, well God just puts us in the burn pile with His enemies. Hope I summed that up properly.
So in your paradigm this Scripture might be difficult for you to reconcile:
Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
God both begins it and He completes it.
We also know through Jesus' teachings that being born of again is a very literal thing, not figurative. You can't be "unborn of God" as this Scripture teaches:
1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
The very presence of our faith shows that we have already overcome the world.
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Good post brother! You hit the nail on the head when you said, "But now I see where your lens is at, you see "believing" as a present work, that we must continue in, in order to have eternal life."
I can see where the idea of working hard by pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps in order to keep believing and maintain your salvation would certainly feed that person's PRIDE and so does painting believers in the OSAS camp with a broad brush of being hyper grace believers who will surely lose their salvation because they view grace as a license to sin which leads back to unbelief.
I can see where the idea of working hard by pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps in order to keep believing and maintain your salvation would certainly feed that person's PRIDE and so does painting believers in the OSAS camp with a broad brush of being hyper grace believers who will surely lose their salvation because they view grace as a license to sin which leads back to unbelief.
It seems Paul thinks differently here:
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Paul says here that the Person of Christ is living in him.
And here Paul discusses that you're dead. And your life is now hidden away in Christ.
Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
How do you translate these in your paradigm?
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Paul says here that the Person of Christ is living in him.
And here Paul discusses that you're dead. And your life is now hidden away in Christ.
Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
How do you translate these in your paradigm?
So the question here is, did Paul see Christ being in us (and being formed in us) as figurative covenantal ideas or literal realities in the Spirit?
Let's find out.
Another covenantal reality or literal....
2 Corinthians 13 5Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
And here we see Paul actually wanting Christ to be formed in people:
Galatians 4:19my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!
Sounds like a Person.
But hey let's look at another book, how about Ephesians...
Ephesians 3:17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love
Or maybe Thessalonians...
2 Thessalonians 1:10when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
If Scripture won't convince you nothing else will. I realize it appears to be illogical, but that's why the Spirit of God opposes the things of the mind.
Here's a question for you, why does Paul say he couldn't address the believers as spiritual, if there's not a growth process?
1 Co 3:1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as fleshly--as infants in Christ.
It sure appears that the reality of us being SPIRITUAL beings in Christ and in Him in us is pretty clear to Paul.
In fact, he goes on to say, we know no one according the flesh. Not even Christ.
2 Co 5:16From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.
The idea that Christ is only a Person, a fleshly Person, thus can't be in us or we can't be in Him, is completely against this Scripture.
How does these Scriptures fit in your paradigm?
Let's find out.
Another covenantal reality or literal....
2 Corinthians 13 5Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
And here we see Paul actually wanting Christ to be formed in people:
Galatians 4:19my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!
Sounds like a Person.
But hey let's look at another book, how about Ephesians...
Ephesians 3:17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love
Or maybe Thessalonians...
2 Thessalonians 1:10when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
If Scripture won't convince you nothing else will. I realize it appears to be illogical, but that's why the Spirit of God opposes the things of the mind.
Here's a question for you, why does Paul say he couldn't address the believers as spiritual, if there's not a growth process?
1 Co 3:1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as fleshly--as infants in Christ.
It sure appears that the reality of us being SPIRITUAL beings in Christ and in Him in us is pretty clear to Paul.
In fact, he goes on to say, we know no one according the flesh. Not even Christ.
2 Co 5:16From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.
The idea that Christ is only a Person, a fleshly Person, thus can't be in us or we can't be in Him, is completely against this Scripture.
How does these Scriptures fit in your paradigm?
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He is in Heaven and we are in Him because we are His Body.
This is why it says He and we sit with Him.
Ephesians 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Please notice, we are already raised up, already seated with Him. This also flies in the face of the idea we can lose our salvation by "being unborn of God".
This is why it says He and we sit with Him.
Ephesians 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Please notice, we are already raised up, already seated with Him. This also flies in the face of the idea we can lose our salvation by "being unborn of God".