Loss of salvation???

[Chaps]

My release from legalism was't passive (as in "You have been released". It was very active in that God led me (passive on my part) as He does others, but I had to trust Him and walk in His light (both things active on my part) in order to escape legalism's grip. And I can testify that the moment I realized that what He was revealing to me was actually true was the moment that obliterated many false beliefs I had previously held. And the path forward from there was not easy as those false beliefs did not go down without a fight. And though at the time I thought my world was crumbling, keeping my eyes on Him and His grace as He led me through it one precept at a time, I can honestly say now that He is worthy of our trust.

I find myself torn between two of your views. I gladly rejoice with you over the rejection of legalism. But I do not support the idea that God abandons to hell His children that fall victim to the scourge of legalism. On the contrary, He leads them out of it as He does with all other sins they commit.

I dont think any of us are saying God abandons his children. However, I do think we are saying children can abandon God. I think the story of the Prodigal son suggests as much. Moreover, with regards to Christians falling into legalism, James says,

James 2:8–13 (ESV): 8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

It seems clear to me that James is saying that if Christians begin judging their brothers in a legalistic manner (the context shows Christians were judging brothers based on their wealth) then they are in danger of being judged by the Law since they are acting in a legalistic way and not showing mercy. Why would James warn Christians about the dangers of legalism if Christians are in no danger from being legalistic in their gatherings towards one another?

 

[sawdust]

I never said you dont know what the Bible teaches. I was only saying it’s hard to have a discussion when you only post your opinion but no scripture. But thank you for posting scripure in this last post.

If you were to continue with that text you quoted, you’d see it goes on to say…



So if he is talking to “brothers“ and your claim is that verse 11 is speaking to the fact that Christians will live if they live according to the Spirit, why is he not also talking to these same “brothers” and warning them they will die if they live according to the flesh? How can the unbeliever choose to live according to the flesh and not the Spirit if they do not have the Spirit? It seems clear to me that he is saying that Christians have a choice to live according to the flesh or Spirit. I agree that those who live according to the Spirit are guaranteed to be saved. But it seems clear to me that Christians also have the choice to live according to the flesh instead of the Spirit.

I also never said someone is not saved if they are not “good enough.” I think you are putting words in my mouth. I never said this nor do I believe it. I give you the courtesy of responding to your statements. I would appreciate the same courtesy. It does no good to try to discuss the teachings of the Bible if you make strawman arguments to discredit my position.

I also never said or implied that God will act like a man and take something back that he gave. I said that Scripture seems to teach that people have a choice to resist the Spirit and live according to the flesh. People have a choice to not believe. This has nothing to do with our goodness, but everything to do with our faith. Faith, as I see it, is not a momentary concent to facts that results in the Spirit taking over to ensure the believer can never not believe. It is an ongoing relationship of trust in Jesus.

Id also point out that Jesus never tells people to make a statement of faith or make a declaration of belief. He calls people to discipleship and to follow him. In fact, he often discouraged people from following him if they weren’t willing to take up the cross. If salvation is a moment of belief, why wouldnt he tell the rich young ruler to pray a prayer and make a statement of faith so that he could inherit eternal life? Why would he tell him to sell his belongings and follow him instead? Clearly the young man believed Jesus was from God and that he could provide eternal life. I believe it is because Jesus was seeking followers, and he did not teach that a moment of belief would guarantee the Spirit to negate the need for ongoing acts of trust, discipleship and commitment.

The point I made seemed to go over your head. I quote:

You seem to confuse being "in the flesh" (unsaved) and "walking after the flesh" (failing to walk by grace). A believer can "walk after the flesh" but that does not mean he dies again. He cannot die. (Jn.3:18)

Verse 12 is saying we are debtors (for our life) to the Spirit, if you are not in the Spirit, you are not God's and will die. Because the flesh did not gives us life we cannot expect to live by it and live the Spirit filled life.

Anyone can say "I believe", that is not what saves you. It is the word at work in you that saves and gives you faith. Faith comes from the word (Rom.10:17) and the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom.1:16). God does not give just any "ole Tom, Dick or Harry" to His Son. Living the Christian life confirms you are saved, it is not what saves you from death. It is impossible to walk according to the Spirit unless you are saved and by walking according to God's plan you overcome the 3 enemies every man of God must face in this life, the Devil, the World and himself. This is why Christ calls you to follow so you might be an overcomer and have life in all it's abundance. (Jn.10:10) God wants the highest and best for all of us.

 

[Inquisitor]

Because some of us look at the whole counsel of God and not cherry pick verses. Christ will not let you go so how do you propose to get away from Him? You have been adopted as God's child, how do you propose to nullify His work? You have been made alive and cannot die and have been made to become a brand new never seen before creation in Christ. How do you propose to undo that? You're not that strong. Nothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. You are part of the creation, hence again, you can't undo what God has done to you.

Then some of us think deeply about what it means when those verses are placed alongside the verses of "being severed" or "falling from grace" and wonder in what way can we be severed or fall if we cannot be lost to God or undo what He has done? Paul gives us a clue when he speaks so strongly about not walking according to the flesh or when he refers to people like the Corinthians as "saints" while they were sinning left, right and centre. Or we can look at the letters in Revelation and realise even the Laodiceans who were terrible Christians (at the time of writing) still belonged to Christ and none of them (who were not fulfilling God's plan) were ever threatened with loss of salvation but were told they were in danger of losing their rewards.

Is salvation a gift or a prize to be earned? There are rewards to be earned in the Christian life but it is not salvation from death, that is a gift and one that is never rescinded. I pray one day you will come to realise this.

You may have to learn some humility.

You stated the following.

Because some of us look at the whole counsel of God

You must be kidding yourself.

The whole counsel of God?

We all struggle with the basics.

This forum in the whole merely just scratches the surface of the revelation
of the Christ.

The whole counsel of God, you say.

How about you boast in Christ first and foremost not theology.

 

[Inquisitor]

I do not disagree with this. It seems Paul is genuinely concerned about the faith of these believers in Galatia. Hence the stark warning about not abandoning the truth for a false Gospel.

Tell me why some folk cannot understand a simple letter?

 

[sawdust]

I do not disagree with this. It seems Paul is genuinely concerned about the faith of these believers in Galatia. Hence the stark warning about not abandoning the truth for a false Gospel.

You both keep making salvation a work. It is a gift. Learning to walk in obedience to the truth is what affirms and works out in your life the salvation you have been freely given. You both keep turning God into a two faced giver who takes His gift back the moment you squander it.

 

[Inquisitor]

You both keep making salvation a work. It is a gift. Learning to walk in obedience to the truth is what affirms and works out in your life the salvation you have been freely given. You both keep turning God into a two faced giver who takes His gift back the moment you squander it.

You constantly stumble in your understanding.

Draw near to God and He will draw near to you!

James 4:8
Come close to God and He will come close to you. Cleanse your hands,
you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Seems to be the reverse of what your saying.

Correct me if I am wrong.

A person can become a Christian for a while then live the rest
of their life in the flesh. Yet they are still saved because God
never let's them go?

 

[sawdust]

You may have to learn some humility.

You stated the following.

Because some of us look at the whole counsel of God

You must be kidding yourself.

The whole counsel of God?

We all struggle with the basics.

This forum in the whole merely just scratches the surface of the revelation
of the Christ.

The whole counsel of God, you say.

How about you boast in Christ first and foremost not theology.

And you may have to stop with your hypocrisy as once again you are making it personal.

If you're still struggling with the basics you can't move on to maturity.

Heb.6:1-3
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

Instead of criticizing me, maybe you could give some thought to what I said.

 

[sawdust]

A person can become a Christian for a while then live the rest
of their life in the flesh. Yet they are still saved because God
never let's them go?

Do you know what that can look like? Do you assume it can only be one who denies Christ and does nothing but live an immoral life?

 

[sawdust]

You constantly stumble in your understanding.

Only according to your understanding.

 

[Inquisitor]

And you may have to stop with your hypocrisy as once again you are making it personal.

If you're still struggling with the basics you can't move on to maturity.

Heb.6:1-3
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

Instead of criticizing me, maybe you could give some thought to what I said.

I did think about what you said.

That is what triggered my post.

The whole counsel of God

I still don't believe that someone could say such a thing.

Not even Paul understood the full counsel of God, he called it a mystery.

 

[Inquisitor]

And you may have to stop with your hypocrisy as once again you are making it personal.

If you're still struggling with the basics you can't move on to maturity.

Heb.6:1-3
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

Instead of criticizing me, maybe you could give some thought to what I said.

I am considering what you said except for the doctrine of OSAS.

Matthew 25:41-46
Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into
the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and
you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger,
and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did
not visit Me.’ Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty,
or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them,
‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for
Me, either.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Jesus is not talking about works of straw here.

Jesus is telling us that there are ramifications for how we live our Christian life.

 

[Inquisitor]

Do you know what that can look like? Do you assume it can only be one who denies Christ and does nothing but live an immoral life?

No so.

I have known many Christians who attend church but never do anything
else. Lukewarm Christians, they never seem to grow. I don't think they
really read the scripture or call on the name of Jesus very often.

A Christian life free from persecution, a no cost walk with Jesus.

For a long time I pondered this verse.

Revelation 3:16
So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth.