Loss of salvation???

[Beckworth]

I'll start here and try to be brief. Again, my point was not to derail things but just to point out the value of lexical studies since such was brought up.

I agree with your statement just above. 1Pet3:21 does say that baptism saves us. It looks to me like the flow of the language is water = that which corresponds to baptism = appeal/formal request to God from/for good conscience through/by means of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

As you can see, I'm not taking dogmatic positions on the underlined but just showing some more options of where this can go. At quick glance I'd look at Scriptures that seem to tie true faith to a good conscience (from good conscience) and/or the cleansing of conscience by the one-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ (for good conscience).

But what does seem clear from looking through lexical work and associated words in Scripture is that rather than "answer" or "pledge" this baptism is an appeal - a formal request (BDAG Lexicon) - to God. So, I think I'd be starting with your #3 and working from there. There is some work that may tie this formal request to prayer.

This doesn't answer all the arguments re: baptism but IMO there are so many contested points in all of these discussions that the only way to start narrowing down to final answers is to use all means of and tools for interpretation to know what each verse is actually saying.

This discussion reminds me of another passage that may go along with this in meaning, and that is Acts 22:16 where Ananias tells Saul to “Arise, and be baptized and wash away your sins, CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD. Isn’t this the same thing as making an “appeal” as in 1 Peter 3? We are calling on God to save us, forgive our sins, etc. we know it’s not just speaking His name Matthew 7:21. We are appealing to His word and his power, and authority. Colossians 2:12 says, “..buried with Him in baptism…through faith IN THE WORKING OF GOD. We have faith in God, His word, and His promises. Baptism is God’s work. We “submit” to it, but God does the work; we have faith in Him and His word. We have faith in the working of God.

We are discussing baptism, but baptism is for “believers.” Mark 16:16 and Acts 8:36-37. So with out faith, baptism is useless. Faith must come first and it is an absolute requirement as Jesus says in Mark 16:16. Lest someone say we believe in baptism ONLY. Not so.

 

[Cameron143]

Is there a scripture that says this? Or is this just your opinion? The book of Hebrews contrasts the new covenant which is the New Testament with the old covenant or Old Tesrament. It says Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. Chaoters 8 and 10 both state that God made a new covenant with His people not like the old one that is in the Old Testament and in this new covenant which is the law of Christ in the New Testament, He will forgive us of our sins. So my understanding is that the covenant is between us and God or Christ. What kind of covenant are you talking about between God and Christ?
A “covenant “ is simply an “agreement, “ a contract. And there are many different kinds, even in the Bible.

There was the “covenant” of circumcismin Genesis 17:13; a covenant of peace, Numbers 25:12; Job made a covenant with his eyes, Job 3:1; the covenant Godmakes with us when He takes away our sins, Roman’s 11:27. This is the covenant I was referring to when at baptism, we “pledge”. 1 Peter 3:21. So you see, there are many different kinds of covenants spoken of in the Bible.. I just never heard of or don’t remember one spoken of between God the Father and God the Son. Scripture, please.

It's the covenant of grace spoken of in Genesis 3, when God promises redemption through the seed of the woman...Jesus...He will save His people from their sins...Matthew 1:21.

Initially, Adam is the representative of the human race. God gave him a covenant with basically 1 requirement: don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He failed. As a result, all mankind became subject to death.

Time goes on until the fulness of time is come...Galatians 4:4...and Jesus is born of a woman. Unlike the first Adam, He has over 600 laws to keep in order to redeem those who were under the law. He does so and fulfills all righteousness while suffering and dying, shedding His blood for the remission of sins.

We did not come face to face with God, as Israel did, and enter into agreement with God. Jesus entered into covenant with God. The Father set the terms, chose Jesus to be His servant...servant songs in Isaiah, and Jesus fulfilled all that was required to redeem a people for Himself.

We enter into the covenant by grace through faith. Unlike what many would have us believe, we do nothing to fulfill the covenant. Nor is anything expected of us to enter in. Jesus did all that was necessary. We simply enter through belief. This is why Jesus answered in John 6 to the question...what shall we do that we might work the works of God...that you believe on Him whom He hath sent.

When we believe we do receive the benefits of the covenant, but we do so without ever entering into an agreement or covenant with God.

 

[GWH]

This discussion reminds me of another passage that may go along with this in meaning, and that is Acts 22:16 where Ananias tells Saul to “Arise, and be baptized and wash away your sins, CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD. Isn’t this the same thing as making an “appeal” as in 1 Peter 3? We are calling on God to save us, forgive our sins, etc. we know it’s not just speaking His name Matthew 7:21. We are appealing to His word and his power, and authority. Colossians 2:12 says, “..buried with Him in baptism…through faith IN THE WORKING OF GOD. We have faith in God, His word, and His promises. Baptism is God’s work. We “submit” to it, but God does the work; we have faith in Him and His word. We have faith in the working of God.

We are discussing baptism, but baptism is for “believers.” Mark 16:16 and Acts 8:36-37. So with out faith, baptism is useless. Faith must come first and it is an absolute requirement as Jesus says in Mark 16:16. Lest someone say we believe in baptism ONLY. Not so.

The best manuscripts do NOT include Mark 16:9-20.

 

[studier]

This discussion reminds me of another passage that may go along with this in meaning, and that is Acts 22:16 where Ananias tells Saul to “Arise, and be baptized and wash away your sins, CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD. Isn’t this the same thing as making an “appeal” as in 1 Peter 3? We are calling on God to save us, forgive our sins, etc. we know it’s not just speaking His name Matthew 7:21. We are appealing to His word and his power, and authority. Colossians 2:12 says, “..buried with Him in baptism…through faith IN THE WORKING OF GOD. We have faith in God, His word, and His promises. Baptism is God’s work. We “submit” to it, but God does the work; we have faith in Him and His word. We have faith in the working of God.

We are discussing baptism, but baptism is for “believers.” Mark 16:16 and Acts 8:36-37. So with out faith, baptism is useless. Faith must come first and it is an absolute requirement as Jesus says in Mark 16:16. Lest someone say we believe in baptism ONLY. Not so.

You're touching on things that I do think tie to this word "appeal" in 1Pet3:21. And this is why I find it important to do some of this deeper work we're discussing.

Also, what you're attaching here compares to things I considered as I thought and studied through baptism when a few asked me to baptize them. I'm not one for empty or unexplained rituals and traditions so I did some studies. They ended in my speaking to and teaching a few hours from Scripture before I would baptize anyone. If I didn't know them well, I'd check their only "foundation" (1Cor3:11) and some other Gospel points and then take them through some Scripture to instruct on what genuine Faith is, what Salvation is, and some of the things to expect in their walk to the goals and destination God has for His Children.

One of the things I instructed on was the somewhat of an ambiguous phrase Peter speaks of in the appeal [of] good conscience.

In one respect, as I mentioned before, I think this can be tied to Faith, so are we dealing with a person with what seems to be genuine Faith from a good conscience? Are we dealing with a Christian?

In another sense the appeal [of] a good conscience could be an appeal to God for a good conscience which IMO can tie into the instruction mostly in Hebrews re: the perfection of conscience that only comes through the sacrificial work and Great High Priesthood of Jesus Christ. And this perfection of conscience IMO is spoken of in the sense of what Christ has done for us and is doing for us as we grow in Christ in Spirit. So, part of the instruction I gave pre-baptism was to show some of the process of growth from infancy to maturity and beyond so the person being baptized would know some of what they were being baptized into, IOW a lifelong process of abiding and growth in the Faith, a perfection of conscience and being perfected in Love.

So, this "appeal to God" was not a minor thing IMO and I did not handle it as a minor thing. By the time I baptized someone I would be asking them to make an appeal to God from a genuine Faith (see link) and for spiritual maturity and beyond (as Paul speaks of in Phil3) and affirming to we who were witnesses that this is what they wanted, were appealing/making formal request for and were committing to and that they knew they had siblings in Christ in Spirit who would help them along the way in any way we could.

Again, it was not my intent to hijack this thread into baptism discussion. This is not all I think we're taught re: baptism.

 

[BillyBob]

I would certainly agree that we have a need to be baptized in order to be saved. However, I also believe that the baptism that saves is that which is done by the Holy Spirit not just water baptism alone.

When the Spirit is poured out on us, we will be saved!

The thief on the cross experienced this on his last day of life here on earth. There was no need for water baptism, but a baptism by the HS which changed his heart and made him believe and trust in the savior.