Loss of salvation???
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Romans 8 verses 15-16 You did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
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Amen! 1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you
may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5 verses 11-13 + John 6 verse 47 ~ This is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
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The whole world includes all of creation; not simply humans. Jesus came to destroy all the works of the evil one. This includes all of creation. This is what is in view.
The power of the evil one over the world is over all creation due to the effect of sin...Romans 8:22.
Your limitation of such passages where the world is in view to humanity doesn't comport to scripture as a whole.
The power of the evil one over the world is over all creation due to the effect of sin...Romans 8:22.
Your limitation of such passages where the world is in view to humanity doesn't comport to scripture as a whole.
The WHOLE world includes ALL of creation.........WE are His creation....HUMANS.
He came to destroy ALL of the works of the evil one......NOT JUST SOME>>>ALL.
He died for ALL of creation.
He destroyed ALL of the works of the evil one.
Equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL of CREATED HUMANS for His salvation....Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
He came to destroy ALL of the works of the evil one......NOT JUST SOME>>>ALL.
He died for ALL of creation.
He destroyed ALL of the works of the evil one.
Equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL of CREATED HUMANS for His salvation....Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
How do you understand Romans 1:16...the gospel only being the power of God to those who believe? Why isn't it said to be the power of God period?
Do you believe there is anything in the fallen natural man that hinders him coming to belief?
Do you believe all the works of the evil one have been destroyed?
Do you believe there is anything in the fallen natural man that hinders him coming to belief?
Do you believe all the works of the evil one have been destroyed?
The Biblical perspective says that mankind itself is the world.
It differentiates between whole "world" and whole "earth."
Look how it is differentated in the Bible - 'World' vs 'Whole earth.
Genesis 11:1-4
People have language! Not the earth.
The whole world was living on a plain in Shinar.
grace and peace ...............
It differentiates between whole "world" and whole "earth."
Look how it is differentated in the Bible - 'World' vs 'Whole earth.
Now the whole world had one language and a common speech.
As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.
They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.”
They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar.
Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches
to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will
be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”
Genesis 11:1-4
People have language! Not the earth.
The whole world was living on a plain in Shinar.
grace and peace ...............
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I'm still waiting for someone to create a graph that clearly differentiates between saved and unsaved by showing a line of distinction between saved and unsaved (or loss of salvation dare one dip below the line). All kinds of preachers out there talk about losing one's salvation, but none of them ever show where that line is. The only definitive answers I have ever heard any of them attempt to establish is habitual sin, which we ALL do on a daily basis, so that descriptor fails to show anything with it being so vague.
Others make mention of some other extremes, such as robbing a bank or torturing babies, or burning down high rise buildings full of people or sleeping with the wife of another man. Some point to 1 Corinthians 6, claiming that doing THOSE things will blot out one's salvation, even though the concept of salvation isn't even mentioned, with most laying claim that inheritance is akin to entering into, the case for which I have yet to see made with a solid foundation of evidence. I mean, think about it: Salvation is a gift the scriptures nowhere state as being taken back. Inheritance of reward and stuff, that can be removed from promise to a descendant, and yet that descendant cannot be disowned as a family member. It doesn't cut off that descendant from being the offspring of the parent, for example. So, I'm still waiting for that case to be made without the usual warps and twists of language, key words, or just outright adding something that's not in the context.
Those who refuse a literal interpretation of scripture as a rule of thumb, therefore, always jump to the allegorical, that way they can try to make scripture say whatever they want, or they will stick to the perceived rules for allegory by claiming that they're allegedly allowing scripture to define scripture when they draw parallels to other contexts that simply don't align...again manipulating their interpretation into alignment with personal bias and personally constructed interpretational criteria.
Bottom line, loss of salvation is nothing more than works-based salvation, which is very much what defines Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses theology, et al. The loss of salvation gang routinely attempt defending their system of belief by examples of violation within the lives of allegedly "saved" people who do unimaginable things that then negate their salvation...as if hypotheticals prove anything. This practice of denial for the power of sanctification effected by Holy Spirit in the lives of the truly saved, the flawed argumentation of the loss of salvation gang gives me great pause for them to try positing such erroneous argumentation for alleged loss of salvation. Again, they have no solid line of definition for such a phenomenon so that we can then see what's actually differentiable within their muddled thinking. Repetition, voluminous yelling and allegory seems to be their only defense for a doctrine I can't find in scripture in relation to all who are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves lest any man should boast.
Bottom line, the loss of salvation gang tend to be boasters for not having lost their salvation...even though some have actually claimed to have lost theirs in the past. How they know they had lost it always ends up being a matter of feeling (in other words, a deep-seated, emotional conviction for loss leading to the feeling of guilt) more than anything else. Folks, conscience and feelings are not basis indicators for loss of salvation. This line of thinking still falls within the realm of works-based salvation, period. By abstaining from those more grievous sins, and therefore allegedly avoiding the loss of salvation, that is purely works-based salvation, which inevitably leads to the fact that they must also lay claim to have earned it through their works. Those go hand-in-hand by way of a clasp that cannot exist apart from one another.
"Why should I let YOU into Heaven?"
"Oh, well, I stated my belief in you and was water baptized, AND I abstained from those more grievous sins that would otherwise negate my salvation."
"So, you dare come before me and boast...GET LOST!"
See the problem here?
MM
Others make mention of some other extremes, such as robbing a bank or torturing babies, or burning down high rise buildings full of people or sleeping with the wife of another man. Some point to 1 Corinthians 6, claiming that doing THOSE things will blot out one's salvation, even though the concept of salvation isn't even mentioned, with most laying claim that inheritance is akin to entering into, the case for which I have yet to see made with a solid foundation of evidence. I mean, think about it: Salvation is a gift the scriptures nowhere state as being taken back. Inheritance of reward and stuff, that can be removed from promise to a descendant, and yet that descendant cannot be disowned as a family member. It doesn't cut off that descendant from being the offspring of the parent, for example. So, I'm still waiting for that case to be made without the usual warps and twists of language, key words, or just outright adding something that's not in the context.
Those who refuse a literal interpretation of scripture as a rule of thumb, therefore, always jump to the allegorical, that way they can try to make scripture say whatever they want, or they will stick to the perceived rules for allegory by claiming that they're allegedly allowing scripture to define scripture when they draw parallels to other contexts that simply don't align...again manipulating their interpretation into alignment with personal bias and personally constructed interpretational criteria.
Bottom line, loss of salvation is nothing more than works-based salvation, which is very much what defines Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses theology, et al. The loss of salvation gang routinely attempt defending their system of belief by examples of violation within the lives of allegedly "saved" people who do unimaginable things that then negate their salvation...as if hypotheticals prove anything. This practice of denial for the power of sanctification effected by Holy Spirit in the lives of the truly saved, the flawed argumentation of the loss of salvation gang gives me great pause for them to try positing such erroneous argumentation for alleged loss of salvation. Again, they have no solid line of definition for such a phenomenon so that we can then see what's actually differentiable within their muddled thinking. Repetition, voluminous yelling and allegory seems to be their only defense for a doctrine I can't find in scripture in relation to all who are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves lest any man should boast.
Bottom line, the loss of salvation gang tend to be boasters for not having lost their salvation...even though some have actually claimed to have lost theirs in the past. How they know they had lost it always ends up being a matter of feeling (in other words, a deep-seated, emotional conviction for loss leading to the feeling of guilt) more than anything else. Folks, conscience and feelings are not basis indicators for loss of salvation. This line of thinking still falls within the realm of works-based salvation, period. By abstaining from those more grievous sins, and therefore allegedly avoiding the loss of salvation, that is purely works-based salvation, which inevitably leads to the fact that they must also lay claim to have earned it through their works. Those go hand-in-hand by way of a clasp that cannot exist apart from one another.
"Why should I let YOU into Heaven?"
"Oh, well, I stated my belief in you and was water baptized, AND I abstained from those more grievous sins that would otherwise negate my salvation."
"So, you dare come before me and boast...GET LOST!"
See the problem here?
MM
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Thanks
so as long as you think you are saved you are.
have confidence in that salvation.
Believe you are saved.
I guess even the goats believe they are saved.
Easy sometimes to see the wolves.
But not so easy for us to separate the goats from the sheep.
I will keep my journey going as the things i believe in are quite different from what perhaps the majority of people on here beleive in.
But thanks for the answers.
i wont share all the many things i beleive in after reading the scriptures as it only creates a lot more discussions
so as long as you think you are saved you are.
have confidence in that salvation.
Believe you are saved.
I guess even the goats believe they are saved.
Easy sometimes to see the wolves.
But not so easy for us to separate the goats from the sheep.
I will keep my journey going as the things i believe in are quite different from what perhaps the majority of people on here beleive in.
But thanks for the answers.
i wont share all the many things i beleive in after reading the scriptures as it only creates a lot more discussions
This is very true, even the Hebrews 6 verse does not clearly state that a truly saved person lost their salvation, I don't believe we can "barely taste" salvation. We're born again or not. I have come to see that a LOT of this debate hinges on what the person thinks of the power of God. If a person thinks that we are born with "free" will and that they chose to come to God, then it only follows logically that we have to be able to choose to walk away, if we feel like it later. This was how I looked at it at first too. I'd think "If I FREELY choose to follow Him and am transformed by His power, am I now stuck here a slave? Can I not choose to walk away if I want?"
It made no sense at all to come in a "free" man and then be made to stay a slave. Then my own personal testimony and His Spirit smacked me in the head with truth. I didn't "choose" Him when I was saved. As a matter of fact, I had already responded to an alter call, repeated the prayer, and was declared saved by my choice, by my pastor, so thought I'd already done the whole Christian thing and found it to be worthless in the trials going on then.
We also have to clear up that me saying God is in control of everything does not mean I believe that we don't have choice, nor does it mean that I believe that our choices don't matter. However, I say that even the man that hears the gospel, hits his knees and turns from his wicked way to God, and is born again in truth right then in there, is only doing what God empowered him to do and God gets ALL the glory and credit for his salvation too. In my case this is completely undeniable.
When God brought me to my knees, I didn't even think God was real anymore. When He showed me "my way" for what it was in truth, and everything that it was leading to, I had no clue what was going on at all. I just hit my knees in defeat and cried "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, world you win, I lose, and I quit!"
I woke up the next day new, and God did it all, not me, not my choice, not the church I go to or the pastor that preaches, God did it. We are told very clearly that salvation is of God, and we cannot boast period. When someone says "god saved us, but we have to come to Him, or we have to choose Him, He throws the life preserver, but you have to grab it. I disagree with everything after and "but". God saves us. Period. No "but" after it, but I do so understanding why they believe these things having shared this understanding myself, for a time.
The truth is that we can no more "unsave" ourselves, as we can save ourselves. The ultimate truth of the matter, and the one we tend to hate most about God, is that He is in control and we are not. This truth people will do anything to avoid, including mislabeling other people, ignoring their every word and telling them what they believe, before turning around and destroying the belief they just tacked to the person. Then going on a high five validation party with each other celebrating their ownage over wickedness.
But my main point in this much longer that I intended comment, is that when we think it's us in control it follows logically that we can lose salvation, but in the light of the Spirit and truth we see that Gods power is so much bigger than our fleshly minds could have ever comprehended and we know that God did it all.
It made no sense at all to come in a "free" man and then be made to stay a slave. Then my own personal testimony and His Spirit smacked me in the head with truth. I didn't "choose" Him when I was saved. As a matter of fact, I had already responded to an alter call, repeated the prayer, and was declared saved by my choice, by my pastor, so thought I'd already done the whole Christian thing and found it to be worthless in the trials going on then.
We also have to clear up that me saying God is in control of everything does not mean I believe that we don't have choice, nor does it mean that I believe that our choices don't matter. However, I say that even the man that hears the gospel, hits his knees and turns from his wicked way to God, and is born again in truth right then in there, is only doing what God empowered him to do and God gets ALL the glory and credit for his salvation too. In my case this is completely undeniable.
When God brought me to my knees, I didn't even think God was real anymore. When He showed me "my way" for what it was in truth, and everything that it was leading to, I had no clue what was going on at all. I just hit my knees in defeat and cried "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, world you win, I lose, and I quit!"
I woke up the next day new, and God did it all, not me, not my choice, not the church I go to or the pastor that preaches, God did it. We are told very clearly that salvation is of God, and we cannot boast period. When someone says "god saved us, but we have to come to Him, or we have to choose Him, He throws the life preserver, but you have to grab it. I disagree with everything after and "but". God saves us. Period. No "but" after it, but
I do so understanding why they believe these things having shared this understanding myself, for a time.The truth is that we can no more "unsave" ourselves, as we can save ourselves. The ultimate truth of the matter, and the one we tend to hate most about God, is that He is in control and we are not. This truth people will do anything to avoid, including mislabeling other people, ignoring their every word and telling them what they believe, before turning around and destroying the belief they just tacked to the person. Then going on a high five validation party with each other celebrating their ownage over wickedness.
But my main point in this much longer that I intended comment, is that when we think it's us in control it follows logically that we can lose salvation, but in the light of the Spirit and truth we see that Gods power is so much bigger than our fleshly minds could have ever comprehended and we know that God did it all.
"We also have to clear up that me saying God is in control of everything does not mean I believe that
we don't have choice, nor does it mean that I believe that our choices don't matter."
Well, what do you mean?
Is there a scripture that says this? Or is this just your opinion? The book of Hebrews contrasts the new covenant which is the New Testament with the old covenant or Old Tesrament. It says Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. Chaoters 8 and 10 both state that God made a new covenant with His people not like the old one that is in the Old Testament and in this new covenant which is the law of Christ in the New Testament, He will forgive us of our sins. So my understanding is that the covenant is between us and God or Christ. What kind of covenant are you talking about between God and Christ?
A “covenant “ is simply an “agreement, “ a contract. And there are many different kinds, even in the Bible.
There was the “covenant” of circumcismin Genesis 17:13; a covenant of peace, Numbers 25:12; Job made a covenant with his eyes, Job 3:1; the covenant Godmakes with us when He takes away our sins, Roman’s 11:27. This is the covenant I was referring to when at baptism, we “pledge”. 1 Peter 3:21. So you see, there are many different kinds of covenants spoken of in the Bible.. I just never heard of or don’t remember one spoken of between God the Father and God the Son. Scripture, please.
A “covenant “ is simply an “agreement, “ a contract. And there are many different kinds, even in the Bible.
There was the “covenant” of circumcismin Genesis 17:13; a covenant of peace, Numbers 25:12; Job made a covenant with his eyes, Job 3:1; the covenant Godmakes with us when He takes away our sins, Roman’s 11:27. This is the covenant I was referring to when at baptism, we “pledge”. 1 Peter 3:21. So you see, there are many different kinds of covenants spoken of in the Bible.. I just never heard of or don’t remember one spoken of between God the Father and God the Son. Scripture, please.