Martin Luther - the founder of Protestantism: Anti-Semitic?
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At the beginning of Luther's ministry he was not. At the end he even suggested murdering robbi's if they taught scripture.
The Lutheran Church still teaches against any of what they call Judiasm. They feel all Jews deny anything to do with the Messiah and have dammed theirselves to hell. They still emphasize the teaching to worship in spirit and truth rather than using ritual to the point that they say the use of ritual is wrong. They feel following any ritual at all from the OT is following the Jews, a very bad thing.
The Lutheran Church still teaches against any of what they call Judiasm. They feel all Jews deny anything to do with the Messiah and have dammed theirselves to hell. They still emphasize the teaching to worship in spirit and truth rather than using ritual to the point that they say the use of ritual is wrong. They feel following any ritual at all from the OT is following the Jews, a very bad thing.
1
It depends on what you define as anti-Jew.
Some would say you're anti-Jew for simply quoting the Bible.
Example 1 Thes 2
Rev 3:9
When Luther or anyone for that matter quotes and speaks on the verses above, they're merely reporting on what the Bible says.
Things go badly when they take the truth and run in the wrong direction with it.
Example of going in wrong direction...
The Bible says the Jews killed Jesus.
Therefore we must murder all Jews.
Luther's boldness brought back important doctrines.
His boldness may have also caused him to stand for some very stupid stuff.
Test all things.
Accept the good.
Reject the bad.
Some would say you're anti-Jew for simply quoting the Bible.
Example 1 Thes 2
Rev 3:9
When Luther or anyone for that matter quotes and speaks on the verses above, they're merely reporting on what the Bible says.
Things go badly when they take the truth and run in the wrong direction with it.
Example of going in wrong direction...
The Bible says the Jews killed Jesus.
Therefore we must murder all Jews.
Luther's boldness brought back important doctrines.
His boldness may have also caused him to stand for some very stupid stuff.
Test all things.
Accept the good.
Reject the bad.
Well, I don't know that Lutherans are actually preaching that.
Martin Luther came against heresy of the worst sort.
People were buying indulgences and living like the devil, thinking they could buy their way into heaven when he nailed the 95 thesis to the door of the Wittenburg church.
He read the Bible, and the reformation was formed.
I still say he was mightily used of God.
Was he perfect? - Is anyone excepting Jesus?
The thing about judging is you have to see where people are coming from, what they are coming out of to follow Christ.
It is easy to cast aspersions. How many of us would have stood up to the Holy Roman empire, standing on scripture alone?
Martin Luther came against heresy of the worst sort.
People were buying indulgences and living like the devil, thinking they could buy their way into heaven when he nailed the 95 thesis to the door of the Wittenburg church.
He read the Bible, and the reformation was formed.
I still say he was mightily used of God.
Was he perfect? - Is anyone excepting Jesus?
The thing about judging is you have to see where people are coming from, what they are coming out of to follow Christ.
It is easy to cast aspersions. How many of us would have stood up to the Holy Roman empire, standing on scripture alone?
Isn't this the absolute truth! That is why I think we must look at every single scripture, NT and OT, about any subject to find out all of what God wants us to know about anything.
All scripture is truth. Every single scripture agrees with every other one. Sometimes it is hard for us to get our minds wrapped around an entire truth, sometimes scriptures seem to disagree. But with prayer and study, it is opened up to us. We can know we see clearly when we understand the agreement.
Also, it seems to me to be important to not judge, for instance Luther. We are asked to judge that murder is always wrong, his teaching that was wrong. But to throw out all this wonderful man was, taught, and did because he said something wrong would be like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
I think we can toss out his idea of getting rid of scripture by labeling it Judaism and that labeling all judaism as wrong is in error. But we need to read scripture, pray for leading, and not zero in on only a few scriptures but on the whole of scripture, not tossing away one bit of it. And use scripture to test what men say.
All scripture is truth. Every single scripture agrees with every other one. Sometimes it is hard for us to get our minds wrapped around an entire truth, sometimes scriptures seem to disagree. But with prayer and study, it is opened up to us. We can know we see clearly when we understand the agreement.
Also, it seems to me to be important to not judge, for instance Luther. We are asked to judge that murder is always wrong, his teaching that was wrong. But to throw out all this wonderful man was, taught, and did because he said something wrong would be like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
I think we can toss out his idea of getting rid of scripture by labeling it Judaism and that labeling all judaism as wrong is in error. But we need to read scripture, pray for leading, and not zero in on only a few scriptures but on the whole of scripture, not tossing away one bit of it. And use scripture to test what men say.
Martin Luther - Father of Protestantism
"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews?
First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians...
Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country...
Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them...
Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb.
Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside...
Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them...
Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow... For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting.
Especially you pastors who have Jews living in your midst, persist in reminding your lords and rulers to be mindful of their office and of their obligation before God to force the Jews to work, to forbid usury, and to check their blasphemy and cursing."
That is just a tiny sample. It is sickening!
"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews?
First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians...
Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country...
Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them...
Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb.
Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside...
Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them...
Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow... For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting.
Especially you pastors who have Jews living in your midst, persist in reminding your lords and rulers to be mindful of their office and of their obligation before God to force the Jews to work, to forbid usury, and to check their blasphemy and cursing."
That is just a tiny sample. It is sickening!
Martin Luther - Father of Protestantism
"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews?
First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians...
Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country...
Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them...
Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb.
Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside...
Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them...
Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow... For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting.
Especially you pastors who have Jews living in your midst, persist in reminding your lords and rulers to be mindful of their office and of their obligation before God to force the Jews to work, to forbid usury, and to check their blasphemy and cursing."
That is just a tiny sample. It is sickening!
"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews?
First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians...
Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country...
Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them...
Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb.
Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside...
Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them...
Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow... For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting.
Especially you pastors who have Jews living in your midst, persist in reminding your lords and rulers to be mindful of their office and of their obligation before God to force the Jews to work, to forbid usury, and to check their blasphemy and cursing."
That is just a tiny sample. It is sickening!
P
*and now, it's time for 'ask a silly question'! here's your host, ellie *
just wondering, RedTent...what state do you think unbelieving Jews are in today?
do you think they are heaven bound? (saved)
if so, why?
oh, and, why do you say, "what they would call Judaism"?
what should it be called?
Well, firstly, we are commanded to worship God in spirit and in truth (Jn. 4:24), so I am having a hard time seeing the downside there.
ritual-- 1] Any customary observance or practice
.............. 2] The prescribed procedure for conducting religious ceremonies
I was brought up Lutheran, and though it's been many years since I was part of a Lutheran church, I go when I visit my auntie. Seems to me there's a real love for ritual there. Liturgy, readings (they've got those cool lectionaries)...it all seems based in ritual to me.
Mind you, I love it. I just also wondered how long it's been since you attended a Lutheran church (you know, kinda regular-like).
Lastly...while I see why any believer would wish to celebrate the OT feasts which so beautifully point the way to Christ,
I'm not sure any Christian needs to incorporate other facets of Judaism into, especially, their church services.
How is it done in your assembly?
Thanks for listening.
just wondering, RedTent...what state do you think unbelieving Jews are in today?
do you think they are heaven bound? (saved)
if so, why?
oh, and, why do you say, "what they would call Judaism"?
what should it be called?
Well, firstly, we are commanded to worship God in spirit and in truth (Jn. 4:24), so I am having a hard time seeing the downside there.
ritual-
- 1] Any customary observance or practice.............. 2] The prescribed procedure for conducting religious ceremonies
I was brought up Lutheran, and though it's been many years since I was part of a Lutheran church, I go when I visit my auntie. Seems to me there's a real love for ritual there. Liturgy, readings (they've got those cool lectionaries)...it all seems based in ritual to me.
Mind you, I love it. I just also wondered how long it's been since you attended a Lutheran church (you know, kinda regular-like).
Lastly...while I see why any believer would wish to celebrate the OT feasts which so beautifully point the way to Christ,
I'm not sure any Christian needs to incorporate other facets of Judaism into, especially, their church services.
How is it done in your assembly?
Thanks for listening.
I think this is taking what Martin Luther said out of context. He was a former Catholic priest, and lived in a country that hated Jews (Just think about the Holocaust, many centuries later). He also said he hated anabaptists, and I know today many Lutherans would be angry if you were baptized as a baby, then later re-baptized. But they don't HATE them anymore, anymore than modern day Lutherans hate Jews, unless it is cultural. (I work with two Lutheran pastors, and they are the most kind and loving people I have ever met - that is why they are chaplains, and so good at the job God has called them to do in long term care. And Lutherans where I am have set up 53 long term facilities, meeting a huge need for people who are not able to care for themselves. A lot more than I can say for my own denomination. And the cost is minimal, compared to other facilities!
Luther is a hero, in my opinion. He did know the Bible, translated both Old and New Testaments into German for the first time. He also brought the church back to "salvation by grace." No rituals, indulgences or intermediaries.
For that alone, we need to respect him, while recognizing he was not perfect, and some things he said were a product of the time in which he lived.
Luther is a hero, in my opinion. He did know the Bible, translated both Old and New Testaments into German for the first time. He also brought the church back to "salvation by grace." No rituals, indulgences or intermediaries.
For that alone, we need to respect him, while recognizing he was not perfect, and some things he said were a product of the time in which he lived.
*and now, it's time for 'ask a silly question'! here's your host, ellie *
just wondering, RedTent...what state do you think unbelieving Jews are in today?
do you think they are heaven bound? (saved)
if so, why?
oh, and, why do you say, "what they would call Judaism"?
what should it be called?
Well, firstly, we are commanded to worship God in spirit and in truth (Jn. 4:24), so I am having a hard time seeing the downside there.
ritual-- 1] Any customary observance or practice
.............. 2] The prescribed procedure for conducting religious ceremonies
I was brought up Lutheran, and though it's been many years since I was part of a Lutheran church, I go when I visit my auntie. Seems to me there's a real love for ritual there. Liturgy, readings (they've got those cool lectionaries)...it all seems based in ritual to me.
Mind you, I love it. I just also wondered how long it's been since you attended a Lutheran church (you know, kinda regular-like).
Lastly...while I see why any believer would wish to celebrate the OT feasts which so beautifully point the way to Christ,
I'm not sure any Christian needs to incorporate other facets of Judaism into, especially, their church services.
How is it done in your assembly?
Thanks for listening.
just wondering, RedTent...what state do you think unbelieving Jews are in today?
do you think they are heaven bound? (saved)
if so, why?
oh, and, why do you say, "what they would call Judaism"?
what should it be called?
Well, firstly, we are commanded to worship God in spirit and in truth (Jn. 4:24), so I am having a hard time seeing the downside there.
ritual-
- 1] Any customary observance or practice.............. 2] The prescribed procedure for conducting religious ceremonies
I was brought up Lutheran, and though it's been many years since I was part of a Lutheran church, I go when I visit my auntie. Seems to me there's a real love for ritual there. Liturgy, readings (they've got those cool lectionaries)...it all seems based in ritual to me.
Mind you, I love it. I just also wondered how long it's been since you attended a Lutheran church (you know, kinda regular-like).
Lastly...while I see why any believer would wish to celebrate the OT feasts which so beautifully point the way to Christ,
I'm not sure any Christian needs to incorporate other facets of Judaism into, especially, their church services.
How is it done in your assembly?
Thanks for listening.
But in my studies I discovered that some churches incororate some of these ways of worship. My belief before was that if you had anything to do with this scripture you were denying the power of Christ. Now, my understanding is that they are a step toward Christ. My path to changing my understanding was long and difficult. I still question.
I cannot drive, can't get to a church who worships in this way. I could get there twice. The whole building seemed to vibrate with love of the Lord, Christ was worshipped, I was impressed. I studied the lives of the Jews who used these ways without understanding their Messiah. Like Paul said, it was like a guardian helping them to school.
Let's talk it over!!! And thanks so very much for listening.