Mary Mother of Jesus: Sinless?

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Was Mary the Mother of Jesus without sin?


  • Total voters
    40

Whispered

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Aug 17, 2019
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I would say some do worship her . Also some that don’t believe they worship her .
Here is something concerning one of the Marian Dogmas
Mediatrix of all graces is a Title that the Catholic Church gives to the Mary as the Mother of God, it includes the understanding that she mediates the Divine Grace. In addition to Mediatrix, other titles are given to her in the Church: Advocate, Helper, Benefactress In a papal encyclical of 8 September 1894, Pope Leo XIII said: "The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace."
There is a strong push by some conservative Catholic for a new dogma to call her the Co-Redemptrix meaning that both Mary and Jesus are the sources of the grace in salvation.
Do some looking around on the net . I suggest don’t look at apologetics sites but look at the Catholic ones. Look up the two terms Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix don’t take my word do some leg work. Check out several places to get a gist of what is being said
Blessings
Bill
Research is necessary concerning this topic of course. We both know that those dedicated to the sin of anti-Catholic bias will never be persuaded by historic truth. They'd rather call the entire Catholic body liars than to admit they are wrong about that particular sect.
The title of Redemptrix for Mary came about in the 10th century. It arrived in the litanies members recited for both Jesus and His mother. The title of Co-Redemptrix, with Jesus, is not Catholic dogma. Though there was an effort in 2017 to make that title official, under Pope Francis. I did not pay attention to the outcome of that effort so as to elaborate further.

The bottom line is, Catholics do not worship Mary. They venerate her, sometimes synonymous with worship, however, not in the Catholic tradition.
Many non-Catholics prefer to insist Mary is worshiped as equally as is God, some may belong to churches that have taken that step, however, it is not shall we say, "Vatican approved", as are all things in the RCC unit.
The model like unto the authority of Rome, hence, "Roman" Catholic Pope=Caesar College of Cardinals=Senate.

This topic, like any other here most of the time, is only going to go in circles brother. Those that are dedicated to contempt of the RCC are dedicated to not learn the truth that then nullifies the fiction they cleave to as cause for their contempt. Those who are like unto what Jesus said should be our consciousness as those who are in Him, are open to learn what they realize was previously false information they accepted as truth.
It isn't our responsibility nor duty to change peoples minds.
Blessings.
 

Whispered

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Aug 17, 2019
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I grew up with nuns and priests , and we were give Rosary beads...
We would have to say 10 hail marys and on the single bead , we would have to say One our Father...

This was done all the way around the beads till we come back to the cross...
...xox...
Then you would know the Rosary is comprised of three separate prayers. Which are not indicative of Mary worship.
 

Rosemaryx

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May 3, 2017
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Then you would know the Rosary is comprised of three separate prayers. Which are not indicative of Mary worship.
10 hail Marys and 1 our Father at the end of each ten tells me who is worshipped , and it was all about Mary...

Even the prayer I was taught was the hail Mary over Our Father...
 

Whispered

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Aug 17, 2019
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lol
ok
whatever
fact are facts
the Pharisees keep the law also


sometimes I think you just like to argue
It is not, whatever. Yes, facts are facts. It does not seem at all, it is factually apparent by your own words that you are not interested in facts that conflict with your lack of knowledge.
No, I don't like to argue. I'm one who feels it is necessary to try and reach someone who is unaware of the truth of a matter pertaining to any topic beneath the umbrella of Christian Theology. Unless or until said person demonstrates their agenda is not to share in community and with respect, rather their agenda is to disrupt and seed controversy. Then it becomes a matter of what awaits them at the end of all the wasted expenditure of a lifes time.
I feel no upset even then, only remorse for those who worked so hard to earn that, unless God has mercy.

Pharisees is a Non Sequitur . Please stay on topic
Perfect in the context of the teaching in the Book of Matthew chapter 5 is in bold below, per the common Greek of the text of Matthew 5 itself. It should speak for itself as to what is expected of the Christian whom Jesus led to believe and taught to live by His laws as a reprsentative of His Indwelling Holy Spirit and the Truth of God in Christ.
Those who are in Christ do not make a habit of sinning. The Book of 1st John chapter 3
τέλειος (teleios)
Strong: G5046
GK: G5455
brought to completion; fully accomplished, fully developed, Jas. 1:4a; fully realized, thorough, 1 Jn. 4:18; complete, entire, as opposed to what is partial and limited, 1 Cor. 13:10; full grown of ripe age, 1 Cor. 14:20; Eph. 4:13; Heb. 5:14; fully accomplished in Christian enlightenment, 1 Cor. 2:6; Phil. 3:15; Col. 1:28; perfect in some point of character, without shortcoming in respect of a certain standard, Mt. 5:48; 19:21; Col. 4:12; Jas. 1:4b; 3:2; perfect, consummate, Rom. 12:2; Jas. 1:17, 25; compar. of higher excellence and efficiency, Heb. 9:11
 

Whispered

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Even the prayer I was taught was the hail Mary over Our Father...
Then you were in a very strange place. The Rosary, (Latin: "Garland of Roses"), Our Father , precedes the Hail Mary prayer. And after the Hail Mary prayer there is the, Doxology of the,Glory Be, prayer.

Do you believe prayer is worship?
Non-Catholic Christians are aware of the words in the Our Father prayer.
  • Our Father Prayer
Our Father,

Who art in heaven,

hallowed be thy name,

thy kingdom come,

thy will be done,

on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day,

our daily bread,

and forgive us our trespasses,

as we forgive those

who trespass against us,

and lead us not into temptation,

but deliver us from evil.

Amen


  • Hail Mary Prayer
Hail Mary,

full of grace,

the Lord is with thee.

Blessed art thou amoung women,

and blessed is the fruit

of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,

pray for us sinners,

now, and at the hour of

our death.

Amen

  • Glory Be Prayer (is Doxology. A short hymn of praise to God. It is not exclusive to the RCC faithful.)
Glory be to the Father

And to the Son,

And to the Holy Spirit.

As it was in the beginning,

is now, and ever shall be,

world without end.

Amen


Sadly, the human race never rarely learns from our mistakes. And sadly, in some cases, refuse to concede that as a historic occupier of the histories, have ever made any. Countless dead are evidence to the contrary. And yet, often enough the animus that sought grist for the mill survives to write new history for which some shall be ashamed again. And of course, some shall not.

"Historically nothing is more incorrect than the assertion that the Reformation was a movement in favour of intellectual freedom. The exact contary is the truth. For themselves, it is true, Lutherans and Calvinists claimed liberty of conscience . . . but to grant it to others never occurred to them so long as they were the stronger side. The complete extirpation of the Catholic Church, and in fact of everything that stood in their way, was regarded by the reformers as something entirely natural."
(Protestant Intolerance:An Introuction And Overview. 1.Views of Catholic and Protestant Historians A. Johann von Dollinger)
Grisar, VI, 268-269; Dollinger: Kirche und Kirchen, 1861, 68)
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Then you were in a very strange place. The Rosary, (Latin: "Garland of Roses"), Our Father , precedes the Hail Mary prayer. And after the Hail Mary prayer there is the, Doxology of the,Glory Be, prayer.

Do you believe prayer is worship?
Non-Catholic Christians are aware of the words in the Our Father prayer.
  • Our Father Prayer
Our Father,

Who art in heaven,

hallowed be thy name,

thy kingdom come,

thy will be done,

on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day,

our daily bread,

and forgive us our trespasses,

as we forgive those

who trespass against us,

and lead us not into temptation,

but deliver us from evil.

Amen


  • Hail Mary Prayer
Hail Mary,

full of grace,

the Lord is with thee.

Blessed art thou amoung women,

and blessed is the fruit

of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,

pray for us sinners,

now, and at the hour of

our death.

Amen

  • Glory Be Prayer (is Doxology. A short hymn of praise to God. It is not exclusive to the RCC faithful.)
Glory be to the Father

And to the Son,

And to the Holy Spirit.

As it was in the beginning,

is now, and ever shall be,

world without end.

Amen


Sadly, the human race never rarely learns from our mistakes. And sadly, in some cases, refuse to concede that as a historic occupier of the histories, have ever made any. Countless dead are evidence to the contrary. And yet, often enough the animus that sought grist for the mill survives to write new history for which some shall be ashamed again. And of course, some shall not.

"Historically nothing is more incorrect than the assertion that the Reformation was a movement in favour of intellectual freedom. The exact contary is the truth. For themselves, it is true, Lutherans and Calvinists claimed liberty of conscience . . . but to grant it to others never occurred to them so long as they were the stronger side. The complete extirpation of the Catholic Church, and in fact of everything that stood in their way, was regarded by the reformers as something entirely natural."
(Protestant Intolerance:An Introuction And Overview. 1.Views of Catholic and Protestant Historians A. Johann von Dollinger)
Grisar, VI, 268-269; Dollinger: Kirche und Kirchen, 1861, 68)
I was brought up in care in a Catholic childrens home ran by nuns for seven years...

Thank God nothing they taught me rubbed off on me...

Ash Wednesday was another thing , anyway , when God called me four years ago , I was fresh from having any religion in me , and was shown that Jesus is the Way , the Truth and the Life Amen...
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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www.christiancourier.com
I was brought up in care in a Catholic childrens home ran by nuns for seven years...

Thank God nothing they taught me rubbed off on me...

Ash Wednesday was another thing , anyway , when God called me four years ago , I was fresh from having any religion in me , and was shown that Jesus is the Way , the Truth and the Life Amen...
Thank you.
You did not answer my prior question. Do you believe prayer is worship?
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Thank you.
You did not answer my prior question. Do you believe prayer is worship?
Yes I do , and singing , and talking to God...
When I read the Scriptures , I stop and ponder them , then I pray to God and agree in what He is showing me , and agree that He is who He says He is...
We can worship God in many ways...
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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10 hail Marys and 1 our Father at the end of each ten tells me who is worshipped , and it was all about Mary...

Even the prayer I was taught was the hail Mary over Our Father...
So Mary get 10 time than God the Father
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
You remind me of someone but I can't figure out who right now but why are you asking me, why don't you ask Jesus and see what he says? Oh that's right, you wouldn't believe him if he did tell you would you? ;)

I actually feel bad for the guy, here he asks those who he bought for price to do something that would set them free and like you said, if I say I am perfect you and each one of you will laugh because you know that no one is perfect. Considering Luke 22:63-64, I guess you mean Jesus too.:cry:

Well, if you think someone being perfect is funny, then consider Ex. 8:19, but I guess after this conversation then the answer to whether I am perfect depends upon whether or not talking with the dead is considered being a necromancer.:ROFL:
But more specifically if talking with the person who was dead had been resurrected or is any communication once someone is dead as considered to be a necromancer. Since begin perfect before the LORD is revealed by Deuteronomy 18:10-13 :geek:

you are blowing smoke and trying to get cute now

how is it that you biblically challenged folk are almost always telling people to go read the Bible or ask Jesus or similar as though you think no one but you does those things?

also, making personal nasty remarks only shows you actually have no ability to defend your position so you stoop low trying to sound like you are above it all

that is an ad hominim attack and really, the last rung on the ladder of cheap shots
 

Laish

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Jul 31, 2016
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The bottom line is, Catholics do not worship Mary. They venerate her, sometimes synonymous with worship, however, not in the Catholic tradition.
Hey Whispered.
I have two points . First is as you stated that Catholic tradition veneration of saints is not worship as they define it . That is the point. They define it so that veneration paid to God is worship and to anyone else is not . Here from new advent Catholic encyclopedia is a snip of how they define it .
There are several degrees of this worship:

  • if it is addressed directly to God,it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry .
  • When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs of angels or of saints it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon , Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Burges , 1880, 22 sq.).
  • As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints , the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728). You see they have set it up so that the same act done for God and then a saint are different depending on where it’s directed. Instead of settling a standard for what belongs to God and what can be done for a saint . It’s like someone eating a cake and then define what they ate as vegetables then say they have eaten something healthy. Blessings.
Bill
 
Nov 8, 2019
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I'd like to add to this chat, that sanctification is a lifelong process. Practicing our perfection pushes us closer to the goal, but we can't be truly complete yet in this life. Even so, we must keep doing our best.
That's Pop Christianity you are speaking about. This Mantra you speak of, is what we constantly hear from members of the Fake Denominational and Non-Denominational Churches.

Our post are only intended for those seeking to be Ultra Extreme Religious Fanatics for Elohim/God.
 

Rosemaryx

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So Mary get 10 time than God the Father
Yes this is true...
The same when we used to have to go before the priest , depending on the sin we had committed , he would give us so many hail Marys to pray , the Father was the lessor...
...xox...
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Yes this is true...
The same when we used to have to go before the priest , depending on the sin we had committed , he would give us so many hail Marys to pray , the Father was the lessor...
...xox...
Hail Mary is talk to Mary.

So even if the portion 1:1 it is not biblical

Mary not able to hear billions catholic talk to her, if so she is half god.

Also pray so many?


Matt 6
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Pray so many is like pagan do they think the longer pray make mary heard them.

It is against Jesus teaching
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs of angels or of saints it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon , Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Burges , 1880, 22 sq.).

Correct me if I am wrong.

So if worship addresses to saint call veneration

Same item (worship) in 2 different name.

The item is same, worship.

Smith buy a new car.

I ask smith : hi smith, do you buy a new car?

Smith: no I buy new vehicle

Same item but different name, do yes smith buy new car

Me : hi catholic brother, do you worship mary

Catholic brother: no I venerate mary

Friend venerate is worship.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Some Chinese in my country talk to their death parent, they think their death parent able to hear them, their put their picture death parent in the table and put some fruit in front of the picture, they may think their parent able to eat it, then their burn incense they think their death parent able to smell it

Some Catholic make mary statue, light candle in front of the statue, they may believe it will make mary happy

Friend, this is worship idol, it is not only unbiblical but against bible
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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1 Veneration is worship address to saint

2 veneration is worship to saint

3 veneration is worship.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Hail Mary is talk to Mary.

So even if the portion 1:1 it is not biblical

Mary not able to hear billions catholic talk to her, if so she is half god.

Also pray so many?


Matt 6
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Pray so many is like pagan do they think the longer pray make mary heard them.

It is against Jesus teaching
I agree...
That is why I said in my other post that none of that rubbed off on me , and I give all the glory to God for that...