Mary Mother of Jesus: Sinless?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Was Mary the Mother of Jesus without sin?


  • Total voters
    40

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,398
1,032
113
#41
If it has posable thumbs, freewill, and skin
I'm 100% sure it also has sin.
Like fleas on a dog we are sinners from birth
Every man women and child who ever walked this earth
Save one which is Christ the begotten of God
We are sinners from birth like fleas on a dog.
 

Aerials1978

Well-known member
Dec 10, 2019
1,184
710
113
#42
Her being chosen to carry and deliver our King demonstrates her being highly favored and I imagine counted as righteous because she had faith which made His grace sufficient for her. Hmmmm, this thread and the interactions have me pondering...

I reckon Job, Moses, Daniel, Joseph, and Abraham, to name a few, all share their unique quality with Mary, they all genuinely leaned in and on the same I AM.

I am glad and honored that He uses both genders for His will.
Oh course he does. Who did Jesus first appear to after His resurrection? The Woman. They were only ones(With the accepting of John) to didn’t go into hiding when Jesus was arrested.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
35,008
12,574
113
#43
If Marry needed to be sinless in order for Jesus to be born without the stain of original sin, which is part of the RCC reasoning=== imagine that, God needed help from Mary, a mere human, to be born sinless! But I digress. If Mary truly needed to be sinless so that Jesus would be born free from the stain of original sin, then so too would every ancestor of Mary then need to be sinless so that she could be born sinless. That would go right back to Eve, yes? So logically the RCC dogma, one of only two ex cathedra proclamations (both of which concern Mary), makes no sense. Some people think the immaculate conception refers to the birth of Jesus, but it refers instead to His earthly mother, whom Jesus did not elevate in any way, unlike the RCC. Was Mary blessed? Yes, she was, and so are we, and many others as well.

Of course they also claim she did not die, which connects to the erroneous belief that she was sinless, and also out of this flows their belief that she receives prayers in heaven and intercedes along with Jesus. Some will even tell you that you must go through Mary to get to Jesus :oops: They don't stop there, either, claiming also that Mary was a perpetual virgin, which denies Jesus having siblings which are identified in Scripture. It truly is deeply disturbing to discover how deep the rabbit hole is on this issue.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,553
2,220
113
www.christiancourier.com
#44
To offset the tragic departure of this thread and its purpose, to castagate aspursions by proxy upon the RCC, so as to invalidate the scriptures concerning the mother of Jesus, and deny she was highly favored and in the grace of God, and so as to instead insist Mary was sin filled, and that to that end God would choose a sinner to deliver Himself to the world, I thought I'd share what Paul said about God's grace. So that the attempt to conflate Paul's saying there is no one righteous not even one, indicted Mary as well, is put into proper context.
The Saint Apostle Paul's letter (epistle) to the church in Ephesus. Ephesians chapter 1.
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful[a] in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Footnotes
  1. Ephesians 1:1 Some manuscripts saints who are also faithful (omitting in Ephesus)
  2. Ephesians 1:5 Or before him in love, 5having predestined us
  3. Ephesians 1:9 Or he lavished upon us in all wisdom and insight, making known…
  4. Ephesians 1:14 Or down payment
  5. Ephesians 1:14 Or until God redeems his possession
  6. Ephesians 1:15 Some manuscripts omit your love

Mary was highly favored by God. God's grace was with her, and so too was our Lord, which we cannot forget is told us in the Book of Luke chapter 1.

Another thing the Christian's who decide to participate in this thread may wish to consider in the OP's manner of arguing against God favoring Mary with His grace. When He argues using Paul's statement that “There is no one righteous, not even one", The Book of Romans chapter 3 verse 10, then in order to remain consistent with his casting the sinner label on God's highlyl favored Mary who was in His grace, the OP would also have to charge that Emmanuel/Jesus was a sinner too.

Since He insists God, who was Emmanuel/Jesus, carried in Mary's womb was carried there in the womb of a sinner, she would then not at all be in God's grace, because God's grace is what Saves! God's grace is what led to Him arriving on earth to deliver that new covenant of grace. A covenant made between God and humanity.
"...This is called a Covenant of Grace because it is initiated by God, due to no part and worthiness of man, and is unmerited favor received from God.

In this covenant, Jesus would become man (John 1:1,18; Heb. 2:9), be the mediator of a better covenant (Heb. 8:6), and being under the Law (Gal. 4:4) fulfills the Law perfectly (1 Pet. 2:22). Therefore, the righteousness accomplished by Christ is given to the believer so that he has the righteousness that is not his own, but that of Christ (Phil. 3:9). The believer's responsibility is to have faith in the work of Christ (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9), a righteousness derived in the New Testament times by faith, just as it was in the Old Testament times (Rom. 4:1-11).

The manifestation of the Covenant of Grace was progressively disclosed. It began in the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve sinned and God promised a redeemer (Gen. 3:15), to Abraham the promise to bless the nations (Gen. 12:2-3), the covenant of the Ten Commandments given to the Israelites at Mount Sinai (Exodus 34:28), and believers in the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-37) which is fulfilled in Christ (1 Cor. 11:25). "
Source/more reading: What is the Covenant of Grace?

God would let Himself be born of a condemned sinner? Then highly favored God's grace would mean nothing, if Mary wasn't grace filled, and by that we mean, cleansed of her sins by God's favor, shown her first because He was to show the world His grace through her.

I checked. This isn't the first time long time members here have been exposed to such a thread question.
Was Mother Mary Sinless and thus disobeys Romans 3:23 Thread starter shamariel Start date Jun 4, 2017


It's good to witness the effort the world makes in sending into the church of Christ false teaches, believers, through no fault of their own, and those who purposefully set out to mock and blaspheme God's words. It keeps us on our toes and leads us to study more so as to rebuke the errant and those on the Devil's errand.
God's Blessings to All His People here.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,553
2,220
113
www.christiancourier.com
#45
Sinless, um 100% no, as that would make her a deity. She was prone to human, fallen error like the rest of us. I think her desire and faith for the Lord's sufficiency is what stood her apart. I can only imagine how special it must have been to carry our Lord in her belly for 9 months. What makes her so incredibly beautiful and unique is the One she carried. I do not mean to say she wasn't an incredible child of God, just that what makes her shine is our King.

She is definitely one of the admirable ppl in history that I look forward to visiting with someday.
And yet by the Greek meaning of, "favored", we are led to understand God was not only with Mary, but she was highly favored by Him in His grace. Is it impossible that that would mean God cleansed her of her sins so that she could deliver Messiah to the world?
When grace is the whole point of the new covenant God made with humankind and for our Salvation.
Mary, you who have been graced, for all that grace means?
Strong's Concordance
charitoó
: to make graceful, endow with grace
Original Word: χαριτόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: charitoó
Phonetic Spelling: (khar-ee-to'-o)
Definition: to make graceful, endow with grace
Usage: I favor, bestow freely on.
κεχαριτωμένη
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
2,312
998
113
#46
Her being chosen to carry and deliver our King demonstrates her being highly favored and I imagine counted as righteous because she had faith which made His grace sufficient for her. Hmmmm, this thread and the interactions have me pondering...

I reckon Job, Moses, Daniel, Joseph, and Abraham, to name a few, all share their unique quality with Mary, they all genuinely leaned in and on the same I AM.

I am glad and honored that He uses both genders for His will.
Eve would become mother of all the loving
20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,398
1,032
113
#47
God says he shares his glory with no one.
Yet along comes Mary, build a shrine , pray to her. Perhaps she can sway God to grant your prayers.

Look at King David a man after God's own heart. The scriptures let us see the sin side as well as the saint side so is he excluded from having special favor from God?

Question....if not Mary then who would the Lord have picked?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,357
113
#48
I recently had a few cordial conversations with two men whom were Catholic. Of course the topic of Mary had come up. Their contention was Mary was without original sin and that’s why she was chosen as the vessel for the birth of Christ.

I had asked where in scripture this was ever alluded to and the response was the message Gabriel gave her. “Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.” This comes from Luke 1:28. The claim that Mary was sinless is predicated from this passage. Mary had grace which made her sinless.

We decided to view that text in the original Koine Greek and the actual translation reads: “ Greetings you favored with grace the Lord is with you.” This would indicate that Mary was not full of grace but had grace upon her.

I also asked where else in scripture is Mary stated as being sinless? Of course scripture never states that. We ended our conversations on the premises that we would agree to disagree.

If anyone else has evidence that Mary was sinless, I would certainly be interested in hearing this and why.
No........Mary was sinful and needed to be saved JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER PERSON except Jesus......
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,357
113
#49
And yet by the Greek meaning of, "favored", we are led to understand God was not only with Mary, but she was highly favored by Him in His grace. Is it impossible that that would mean God cleansed her of her sins so that she could deliver Messiah to the world?
When grace is the whole point of the new covenant God made with humankind and for our Salvation.
Mary, you who have been graced, for all that grace means?
Strong's Concordance
charitoó
: to make graceful, endow with grace
Original Word: χαριτόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: charitoó
Phonetic Spelling: (khar-ee-to'-o)
Definition: to make graceful, endow with grace
Usage: I favor, bestow freely on.
κεχαριτωμένη
False....no one was cleansed from Sin outside the blood of Christ and the fact most are ignorning the fact of her virginity and LACK OF MAN'S SEED is rather alarming......
 

jacob_g

Active member
Sep 1, 2019
346
159
43
#50
Two voted she was sinless...

This is a real question; if it has been asked ad answered sorry, did not read all three pages....

If Mary was sinless why did we need Jesus?
 
Sep 6, 2014
5,873
3,417
113
biblehub.com
#51
Luke 2:24
and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of the Lord, “a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Mary's sin offering.

Leviticus 5:11
‘But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.

Leviticus 12:8
‘And if she is not able to bring a lamb, then she may bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons—one as a burnt offering and the other as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’ ”
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,357
113
#52
Two voted she was sinless...

This is a real question; if it has been asked ad answered sorry, did not read all three pages....

If Mary was sinless why did we need Jesus?
Post 48.....I did not vote, but answered!
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,553
2,220
113
www.christiancourier.com
#53
Two voted she was sinless...

This is a real question; if it has been asked ad answered sorry, did not read all three pages....

If Mary was sinless why did we need Jesus?
Do you think God would arrive in this world as the Savior from sins and do so through the womb of a woman who was just like any other sinner?
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,553
2,220
113
www.christiancourier.com
#54
Luke 2:24
and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of the Lord, “a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Mary's sin offering.

Leviticus 5:11
‘But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.

Leviticus 12:8
‘And if she is not able to bring a lamb, then she may bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons—one as a burnt offering and the other as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’ ”
Those weren't Mary's sin offering due to her being in sin. Were she unclean she would not have been able to fulfill God's law of the firstborn and thus enter the temple.

The Law of the Firstborn
...Fulfilling the Law


Many years passed in the land of Israel. Much history transpired, and a great many things changed. Even though the Levitical priesthood was becoming increasingly corrupt, God's rules regarding the firstborn were still upheld among the remnant of the Jews. Now Jesus Christ, who had just come into the world as a firstborn—both of His heavenly Father and of His physical mother, Mary—was about to begin a life of obedience to His own laws:

And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. . . . And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb. (Luke 2:7, 21)​

On Jesus' eighth day of life, He was circumcised, and, as a firstborn, He was dedicated to God's service. It is interesting that Luke makes no mention of Mary and Joseph offering a lamb as a redeeming sacrifice, though he does record the sin and burnt offerings that they presented later on the fortieth day of His human life:

Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the law of the Lord, "Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord") and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, "A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons." (Luke 2:22-24)​

This omission appears to be because:

1. Jesus Himself was to become the redeeming sacrifice to which all other redeeming sacrifices had pointed since Moses' time;

2. His physical life was now completely dedicated to God, as had been pictured by all the other firstborn since Moses' time; and

3. He was not to be redeemed from a life of total service to God, neither by the offering of a lamb nor by the service of the now corrupt Levitical priesthood. The imperfect Levitical priesthood, which had pictured His perfect life of service since Moses' day, was soon to be set aside, and His own priesthood (after the order of Melchizedek; see Hebrews 6:20) would be reinstated.​

The offering of the two turtledoves or pigeons refers to the fortieth-day purification, not to the fact that Jesus was the firstborn. Again, this purification offering was required for all births, not just for the firstborn. Luke adds in Luke 2:27: "And when the parents brought in[to the Temple] the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law . . ." (Luke 2:27).

This "custom of the law" refers specifically to the fortieth-day purification offering at the Temple. This is proven by both Mary and Joseph being in attendance, a thing she could not do if she were still unclean. Mary was ceremonially unclean on Jesus' eighth day of life, when the firstborn and circumcision ceremonies were performed at home, not at the Temple (see Luke 1:57-59 regarding the circumcision of John the Baptist). Ceremonial purity was not necessary for these latter rituals.
 

jacob_g

Active member
Sep 1, 2019
346
159
43
#55
Do you think God would arrive in this world as the Savior from sins and do so through the womb of a woman who was just like any other sinner?
Well yes, since the mothers blood does not pass thru thru the placenta. Jesus was/is a "pure blood".... God... now in human form because Mary was an incubator.... sort of speak.... Mary is a common human like you and me.....
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,398
1,032
113
#56
Then the multitude came together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, “He is out of His mind.

Why would his own family seek to put him away including his mother if she were Devine?
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,553
2,220
113
www.christiancourier.com
#57
Well yes, since the mothers blood does not pass thru thru the placenta. Jesus was/is a "pure blood".... God... now in human form because Mary was an incubator.... sort of speak.... Mary is a common human like you and me.....
My sympathies to your mom, sister(s) and wife.

A "common human" that was highly favored in God's grace, not like you or me unless or until Jesus was born and we then chose to repent and believe.
Furthermore, while you are right about the placenta, you're really off about the mothers blood and the baby. Microchimerism,Agglutinins and Agglutinogens, are just a clue.
And while no doubt the "incubator",insult is ignorant as well, one has to recall that Jesus was the son of man. He wasn't knitted together in Mary's blessed sinless grace filled womb at full term. The Incubator, by God's biological design of the woman, had a great deal to do with Jesus being brought into this world. Not only was Jesus born through Mary, but she delivered the old fashioned way other children from her womb.

Someone laughed about God needing anything as pertains to a woman. Not their precise words but close enough, and their words aren't worth going back to get the precise quote however, what that kind of thinking fails to realize is, God Himself chose to use a woman to enter the world through.

God created man, by which Sin entered the world later, from dirt and woman from bone. Had God chosen to do so He could have fashioned Himself to be an adult male the same way, and walked into ancient Palestine as the fully formed Messiah.

But God chose to arrive through a special woman whom He favored and made sinless, by putting her in His grace for the purpose of delivering a baby not only into the world, but into a Jewish family, so that the family and the child would live and be raised(per Jesus) in the Jewish tradition and under the laws of God.

That's something to think about for those who call God's vessel an incubator, and think Jesus was of pure blood unrelated to His mother, and after His mother was fully in God's grace no less. Grace! The very thing that set the entire Salvation covenant into motion. Something that we are in as the redeemed in Christ!

But no, it doesn't apply to Mary who then is free of sin, as we are, because our sins are counted against us no more, and our former sins were forgiven and God remembers them no more, so that we in God's grace are reborn as a new creation in Christ! It's just us! Not the "incubator", who experienced God's grace first, being she was highly favored for the honor.

You folks need to get your head out of the hatred for all things Roman Catholic, thinking her being full of grace, which she was, as God says, not the church, and maybe you'll actually be able to read the scriptures as God breathed them to life. Animus for anyone or any institution puts scales over your eyes. You won't likely believe that, and I'm saying this to all who are like this, but when you are wrong about how God chose Mary to be the MOTHER , not Incubator of the Savior of the world, your own words betray your blindness.

You and everyone who condemns the grace filled mother of God as less than what the passage actually tells you. Oh, she wasn't this, that, she was just a woman.... That's scales that see her that way.
When people who claim Christ don't respect the woman God chose for His birth into this world, rather than defend that sin, maybe consider what God tells you; you'll answer for every word you've said thinking to argue what you think of Christ. And when you insult His mother....

Too late now but that would mean "incubator" needs a retraction and an edit.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,553
2,220
113
www.christiancourier.com
#58
God says he shares his glory with no one.
Yet along comes Mary, build a shrine , pray to her. Perhaps she can sway God to grant your prayers.

Look at King David a man after God's own heart. The scriptures let us see the sin side as well as the saint side so is he excluded from having special favor from God?

Question....if not Mary then who would the Lord have picked?
Oh, didn't you read? She was just a common human incubator.
Not highly favored and filled with God's grace, which as Christians know, is what we are when we are reborn as His new creation. Our repentance washed clean our sins that God will remember no more, and we therefore do not make a habit of sinning further or we prove we do not know God. All scripture of course.

The animus for the Roman Catholic Church blinds people here. You know this because they precede denying what is in our Bible, since the RCC has a Vatican approved version and that is not considered a Protestant Bible, nor do Protestants use it because it typically includes the Apocrypha, though some authorized copies do not, and that Mary was favored and in God's grace. Grace filled.
The block that occurs in comprehension to that end and by those who mock RCC itself, is because in the RCC liturgy Mary is referred to as, Holy Mary full of Grace the Lord is with thee.

Which was true. The Catholics just voice it aloud in their rites. Our Bible even says so. Mary, truth be told, was the first Christian. :)
She was favored by God, who had first favored the world with His grace so as to bring to it a new covenant. And she was grace filled, being highly favored, because the Holy Spirit blessed upon her the Savior of the world. That means her sins were forgiven just as ours would be when the Messiah arrived to deliver the Good News He was born to teach.

The Holy Spirit does not indwell sinners, so what makes anyone think the Holy Spirit would cover Mary and deliver Jesus into her womb?
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
2,312
998
113
#59
Oh, didn't you read? She was just a common human incubator.
Not highly favored and filled with God's grace, which as Christians know, is what we are when we are reborn as His new creation. Our repentance washed clean our sins that God will remember no more, and we therefore do not make a habit of sinning further or we prove we do not know God. All scripture of course.

The animus for the Roman Catholic Church blinds people here. You know this because they precede denying what is in our Bible, since the RCC has a Vatican approved version and that is not considered a Protestant Bible, nor do Protestants use it because it typically includes the Apocrypha, though some authorized copies do not, and that Mary was favored and in God's grace. Grace filled.
The block that occurs in comprehension to that end and by those who mock RCC itself, is because in the RCC liturgy Mary is referred to as, Holy Mary full of Grace the Lord is with thee.

Which was true. The Catholics just voice it aloud in their rites. Our Bible even says so. Mary, truth be told, was the first Christian. :)
She was favored by God, who had first favored the world with His grace so as to bring to it a new covenant. And she was grace filled, being highly favored, because the Holy Spirit blessed upon her the Savior of the world. That means her sins were forgiven just as ours would be when the Messiah arrived to deliver the Good News He was born to teach.

The Holy Spirit does not indwell sinners, so what makes anyone think the Holy Spirit would cover Mary and deliver Jesus into her womb?
How does grace equate to sinless Bro ? Did Mary's parents give birth to a sinless daughter, how ? Were her other kids sinless ? Did all other babes leap in their mothers wombs like John did when she walked by or was it because Jesus was in her womb and so that John would recognize Jesus even from Elizabeths womb ? And #1 why isn't it emphasized somewhere in the Word that Mary was sinless ? I don't even think Jesus referred to her as mother but called her woman in the Word .... And how do other folks come up with the title ''Queen of Heaven'' ? I actually feel like I'm defending her by not elevating her to something that she would not want or take credit for or taking glory from Jesus as if He needed help being God, you think she would take her sons credit after watching Him die on a cross and all things sunk in ?
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,523
113
#60
I recently had a few cordial conversations with two men whom were Catholic. Of course the topic of Mary had come up. Their contention was Mary was without original sin and that’s why she was chosen as the vessel for the birth of Christ.

I had asked where in scripture this was ever alluded to and the response was the message Gabriel gave her. “Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.” This comes from Luke 1:28. The claim that Mary was sinless is predicated from this passage. Mary had grace which made her sinless.

We decided to view that text in the original Koine Greek and the actual translation reads: “ Greetings you favored with grace the Lord is with you.” This would indicate that Mary was not full of grace but had grace upon her.

I also asked where else in scripture is Mary stated as being sinless? Of course scripture never states that. We ended our conversations on the premises that we would agree to disagree.

If anyone else has evidence that Mary was sinless, I would certainly be interested in hearing this and why.
Catholics as a law of the fathers (commandment of men) like the same a aw of the faithless Jewish father take the oral tradition of men to make the things of God (sola scriptura) without effect. The bottom line.

Like the unbelieving Jew they create their own personal source of faith as a foundation. Which includes Mary along with the other 3500 and rising(a legion) of what they call patron saints and the bible names workers with family spirits calling it a abomination. . Having removed the authority of our unseen Holy father . they violate the warning as those whose private interpretations mixed with the oral tradition of the fathers again called the law of the father. not the law of God.

There must be heresies in that way as opinions of men . Heresy the Greek word for sect or denomination . With one heresy that is damnable or judgment as needing the gospel. That which does despite to the grace of God. Therefore salvation is by grace but according to them only Mary through idolatry and witchcraft received the fulness of grace according to the law of the fathers . Therefore clearly denying the Lord of his fullness of grace given to every believer. No remnants

Everyone else a unknown remnant of grace and therefore after death they must work for another unknow or remnant of time ,suffering a unknown amount or severity of wrath .Ultimately showing no faith as it is written alone. (sola scriptura) The arch enemy of the father of lies as it is written makes him fleee .

1 Corinthians 11:19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Galatians 5:20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even
denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.