Mary, the mother of God

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Jan 8, 2009
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Catholics believe in an infallible Pope on matters of faith and doctrine. The problem is they don't see that a fallable person could make fallable doctrine.

It is a good point re: marriage, if Peter was subject to the same regulations they are today Peter would not have been allowed to marry.

In fact the teachings of Paul about the right for the apostles to take a wife with them in ministry prove the catholics are wrong. Peter or Paul would never have made such a rule as Pope.
 
Feb 19, 2010
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Catholics believe in an infallible Pope on matters of faith and doctrine.
Again, I know a LOT of Catholics, and not a single one of them believe the Pope is infallible. They trust him to have correct doctrine, but then, that SHOULD be expected of anyone in a position of leadership over the church.
 
Feb 19, 2010
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It is a good point re: marriage, if Peter was subject to the same regulations they are today Peter would not have been allowed to marry.

In fact the teachings of Paul about the right for the apostles to take a wife with them in ministry prove the catholics are wrong. Peter or Paul would never have made such a rule as Pope.
The men who become priests CHOOSE a life of celibacy. It's why they do it.

I also don't see where Peter or Paul would make a statement that Catholics are in the wrong for telling priests they cannot marry, and those who wish to become priests WILLFULLY DESIRING TO REMAIN CELIBATE.

In fact, Paul is clear that it's okay to not marry.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
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Yes, that is true as well. Many Christians throughout history and even today have referred to her as a sort of surrogate mother to all Christians. :)
What I thought was interesting to consider, was because Mary, the mother of Jesus, who is the son of God. when Jesus stated she is to be mother to all, could Jesus have been establishing all of us as children of God Our Father in stating Mary is to be Our Mother as well. Thus brothers and sisters in Jesus.
Just a thought, is this an applicable consideration?
God bless, pickles
 
Feb 3, 2010
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Again, I know a LOT of Catholics, and not a single one of them believe the Pope is infallible. They trust him to have correct doctrine, but then, that SHOULD be expected of anyone in a position of leadership over the church.
Sorry Browncoat, but the Catholic Church teaches that the Pope is infallible.

Now, what does that mean?

It does not mean that he is perfect - or a prophet. It doesn't mean that every word out of his mouth is truth or that he cannot be wrong about issues that have nothing to do with faith and morals.

What infallibility really means is that any teaching that has to do with faith or moral, specifically spoken ex cathedra are without error. In 2000 years of Church history, the Popes have only spoken from the chair about a dozen times.

What many Protestants do not understand is that they have the same standards for the Catechisms of their own churches. If they are devout Presbyterians, they are called to follow the Westminster Catechism and the Bible.
 
Feb 19, 2010
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Sorry Browncoat, but the Catholic Church teaches that the Pope is infallible.
Oh, does it? Guess the catholics I know don't subscribe to that teaching...that, or I misunderstood. More likely the latter.

What many Protestants do not understand is that they have the same standards for the Catechisms of their own churches. If they are devout Presbyterians, they are called to follow the Westminster Catechism and the Bible.
This I agree with.
 
Feb 3, 2010
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Catholics believe in an infallible Pope on matters of faith and doctrine. The problem is they don't see that a fallable person could make fallable doctrine.

It is a good point re: marriage, if Peter was subject to the same regulations they are today Peter would not have been allowed to marry.

In fact the teachings of Paul about the right for the apostles to take a wife with them in ministry prove the catholics are wrong. Peter or Paul would never have made such a rule as Pope.
1. If that were true then the Bible, which was written by fallible men, could be fallible.

2. I am glad I could help you out with that example, snail - did you bother to read my point?

3. If Peter and Paul lived during the middle ages when priests were allowed to marry and have children and watched church property being willed to the children of the clergy, they might have decided to promote a celibate clergy. The church could change this tradition anytime they want - it is not apart of sacred Tradition.
 
J

Jordan9

Guest
I have never heard such a thing. No group on earth has worked harder to deny the divinity of Christ than the Jesuits, yet they are the first to raise Mary to divine status.

Quest
Really? You've never heard of a Mormon or a JW? Colour me skeptical.

Also, could you maybe provide me with some Jesuits who denied Jesus' divinity? I've never heard of any.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Again, I know a LOT of Catholics, and not a single one of them believe the Pope is infallible. They trust him to have correct doctrine, but then, that SHOULD be expected of anyone in a position of leadership over the church.
We need to be specific about this. They believe the pope is infallible when he makes a doctrine or practice, but fallible as a human being. In reality though, anyone who is fallible is also fallible in doctrine. No one not even the pope can claim infallibility status on doctrine. When you compare the doctrinal changes or additions over the past 2000 years in the catholic church, it becomes quite clear.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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The men who become priests CHOOSE a life of celibacy. It's why they do it.

I also don't see where Peter or Paul would make a statement that Catholics are in the wrong for telling priests they cannot marry, and those who wish to become priests WILLFULLY DESIRING TO REMAIN CELIBATE.
That's not quite correct. You cannot become a priest in the catholic church and choose to marry or not . It doesn't work like that.
I saw an interesting documentary a while ago now, on tv that had catholic priests complaining they couldn't marry, and it's a main reason why fewer and fewer men were signing up to become priests. To make up for this shortage, the catholic church hires properly authorised anglican ministers to take the mass, (who are often married), and this has created a little bit of a storm, with catholic priests pushing for change in this area. So it is not as you make it out to be, that a priest can simply choose or not to be married. If he becomes a catholic priest as a single man, he must remain celibate. The catholic church is a very legalistic and dogmatic and rigid organisation.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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If that were true then the Bible, which was written by fallible men, could be fallible.
Amen you got it.





3. If Peter and Paul lived during the middle ages when priests were allowed to marry and have children and watched church property being willed to the children of the clergy, they might have decided to promote a celibate clergy. The church could change this tradition anytime they want - it is not apart of sacred Tradition.
1500 years later and? The question is why don't they change this 'tradition' today? In churches that allow married priests today there is no issue of property willed to children. I think we're long past that.
 
L

loeza89

Guest
I actually had a discussion in Sunday school about this when Mary and her children go to see Jesus but the house he is in is too crowded and they cannot get in and one of the people tells Him

A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you
Mark 3:32

"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked
Mark 3:33

Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
Mark 3:34

"Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother"
Mark 3:35
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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Actually, no Catholic liturgical rite allows priests to marry.And why is it a bad thing to have celibate leaders?
1 Timothy 4: 1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.



Quest
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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By that logic Michal, the daughter of Saul had children after her death. Because do not the Scriptures say, "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death." (2 Sam. 6:23)

Tell me also, is a child called the firstborn only after a second is born?
Impressive rebuttal! Impressive scripture reference also.

I don't have a reply.

Quest
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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Not to mention the opposition of the "infallible Pope" concept (which not a single Catholic I know - and I know a lot - believes), considering Protestant pastors are all too often held to the same, infallible standard.
My Mother believes this lie, and so do a great many other Catholics, now and throughout history.

Quest
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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Really? You've never heard of a Mormon or a JW?
Both of them creations of the Jesuits.

Also, could you maybe provide me with some Jesuits who denied Jesus' divinity? I've never heard of any.
I don't have the time or energy right now to search for this information. If only I could remember the name of that fellow whose videos I used to watch on Google. He had loads of Jesuit quotes...

I found this article below online, and there is plenty more to be found:

Quest

THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESS A DAUGHTER OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
This Satanic society used Catholic Church Sources in order to produce its New World Translation. Westcott and Hort were two Satanists, founders of the Hermes Club and members of famed Russian witch Madam Blavatsky's Theosophy cult.
Dr. Bill Grady said it best in his excellent book, Final Authority...
“Wescott and Hort, were a pair of unsaved liberals whose open Vatican sympathies cast them as the consummate Jesuit plants.”
“To regain her corner on the market, Rome created an elite paramilitary Gestapo unit that would make Himmler’s SS appear like a Sunday school….sparking what historians call, the counter-Reformation. The infamous Society of Jesus was founded by Ignatius De Loyola in 1534, more commonly known as the Jesuits….”
They are the most militant arm of papal power to this day. Their goals were to reclaim those that had left Catholicism and to attack the reliability of the Textus Receptus. They would use ANY METHOD to regain control including confiscation, treachery, torture and assassination. Jesuits will stop at nothing to bring the whole world under subjection to the Vatican. The Jesuits ploy was to entice Protestants back to Rome. They knew they could not bring anyone back into the bondage of Catholicism as long as true believers clung to the pure text. So the Jesuits plotted to replace our Bible with pro-Catholic readings of Jerome’s Vulgate. This would cause the Protestant scholars to believe our text was unreliable, unreadable and not scholarly. Once programmed, the scholars would attack the pure text, all the while, believing they were doing God’s service."
Westcott and Hort took two waste Catholic Sources (the Sinaiticus and the Vaticanus) to produce their waste version of the Bible, Nestle and the New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses, written by Senior Jesuits Jose Maria Bover and A. Merkz, followed Westcott and Hort.
 
J

Jordan9

Guest
Question,

I expected better than a sequel to the Da Vinci Code :p
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
1,435
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Question,

I expected better than a sequel to the Da Vinci Code :p
This is about 1/20th of the text on the page, a web-page filled with quotes:

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...its&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

My suggestion Jordan is to take God's advice and leave that Church before her judgment comes.

Quest

Quotations: Jesuit Order

"My history of the Jesuits is not eloquently written, but it is supported by unquestionable authorities, [and] is very particular and very horrible. Their [the Jesuit Order’s] restoration [in 1814 by Pope Pius VII] is indeed a step toward darkness, cruelty, despotism, [and] death. … I do not like the appearance of the Jesuits. If ever there was a body of men who merited eternal ****ation on earth and in hell, it is this Society of [Ignatius de] Loyola."

John Adams (1735-1826; 2nd President of the United States)

"It is my opinion that if the liberties of this country – the United States of America – are destroyed, it will be by the subtlety of the Roman Catholic Jesuit priests, for they are the most crafty, dangerous enemies to civil and religious liberty. They have instigated MOST of the wars of Europe."

Marquis de LaFayette (1757-1834; French statesman and general. He served in the American Continental Army under the command of General George Washington during the American Revolutionary War.)

"The war [i.e., the American Civil War of 1861-1865] would never have been possible without the sinister influence of the Jesuits."

Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865; 16th President of the United States, Note: Please see the end of this document for the full quotation by Lincoln.)

"The public is practically unaware of the overwhelming responsibility carried by the Vatican and its Jesuits in the starting of the two world wars – a situation which may be explained in part by the gigantic finances at the disposition of the Vatican and its Jesuits, giving them power in so many spheres, especially since the last conflict."
Edmond Paris (Author of the book The Secret History of the Jesuits)

"The Jesuits…are a secret society – a sort of Masonic order – with superadded features of revolting odiousness, and a thousand times more dangerous.”

Samuel Morse (1791-1872; American inventor of the telegraph; author of the book Foreign Conspiracy Against the Liberties of the United States) ((Note: For Morse’s full quotation from which this excerpt was taken, please see the end of this document.))

"[The Jesuits] are the deadly enemies of civil and religious liberty."
R. W. Thompson (Ex-Secretary, American Navy)

"The Jesuits are a MILITARY organization, not a religious order. Their chief is a general of an army, not the mere father abbot of a monastery. And the aim of this organization is power – power in its most despotic exercise – absolute power, universal power, power to control the world by the volition of a single man [i.e., the Black Pope, the Superior General of the Jesuits]. Jesuitism is the most absolute of despotisms [sic] – and at the same time the greatest and most enormous of abuses…"

Napoleon I (i.e., Napoleon Bonaparte; 1769-1821; emperor of the French)

“…The Roman Inquisition…had been administered since 1542 by the Jesuits.”
F. Tupper Saussy (Author of the book Rulers of Evil)

"Between 1555 and 1931 the Society of Jesus [i.e., the Jesuit Order] was expelled from at least 83 countries, city states and cities, for engaging in political intrigue and subversion plots against the welfare of the State, according to the records of a Jesuit priest of repute [Thomas J. Campbell]. …Practically every instance of expulsion was for political intrigue, political infiltration, political subversion, and inciting to political insurrection." (1987)
J.E.C. Shepherd (Canadian historian)

“It is impossible to read Elizabethan history [i.e., the history surrounding Queen Elizabeth I of England; queen: 1558-1603] except in the context of an army of Jesuits, masters of deceit, treachery, treason, infiltration, subversion, assassination, insurrection, civil war and coercion, plotting for the good of the papacy, and the defeat of all the Pope’s foes anywhere in the world.” (1987)
J.E.C. Shepherd (Canadian historian)

“The whole frightful responsibility for this terrible Thirty Years’ War [1618-1648] must rest upon the [Holy Roman] Emperor Ferdinand II, and his teachers, rulers, and bosom friends – the Sons of Loyola [i.e., the Jesuit Order].”
Theodor Griesinger (German historian; 1873)

“If you trace up Masonry, through all its Orders, till you come to the grand tip-top head Mason of the World, you will discover that the dread individual and the Chief of the Society of Jesus [i.e., the Superior General of the Jesuit Order] are one and the same person.”
James Parton (American historian)

“All these things cause the Father-General [of the Jesuits] to be feared by the Pope and sovereigns… A sovereign who is not their [the Jesuits’] friend will sooner or later experience their vengeance.” (1852)
Luigi Desanctis (Official Censor of the Inquisition)
 
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Feb 9, 2010
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The Bible says that the heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain God and that is because God is an omnipresent Spirit.

The Bible says we are in God and we have our movement and being because of Him.We are inside of God and that is because God is an omnipresent Spirit.

The Bible says that God is in all and through all and that is because God is an omnipresent Spirit.

God is everywhere and God was already in Mary when the Holy Spirit caused the conception in the womb of Mary.God did not come down from heaven to be born in Mary but God was already in Mary when they Holy Spirit caused the conception.

When the Bible says God was manifest in the flesh it does not mean that God came down from heaven to be born in Mary.It means that God who was already in Mary manifest all His attributes to the child Christ Jesus.

God being manifest means that God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus.

The Holy Spirit who was already in Mary before the conception caused the conception.

It means that God is in all and through all and in Christ He manifest all His attributes,and in the saints partial attributes,in the world the attribute of the ability to repent of their sins.

It means that God was already in Mary before the conception because He is an omnipresent Spirit but He caused the conception in Mary and manifest all His attributes to the child Christ Jesus.

How can Mary be the mother of God when God was already there before the conception.

God did not come down from heaven to be in born in Mary's womb but God was already there that caused the conception and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God who cannot be born.

Fill a tub full of water.Put a glass in it.The glass will fill up with water but the water in the glass is still connected to the full tub of water.

Matt
 
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