The Theotokos represents the Church in many ways. Remember that the author of Revelation, the Apostle John, was given the Theotokos to live with him by Jesus from the Cross. The "woman" in Revelation 12 refers to both the Church specifically and the Theotokos as a symbol of the Church. The reference to the male child has to be a reference to Jesus yes? Who would bear Him but His mother? But the Church continually brings Christ into the world as well. The days of hiding refer to the early Church, but remember that the Theotokos also "hid" with her Son in Egypt. See Matthew 2.
Mary the mother of my Lord (Heresy?)
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Mary According to the Bible
Mother of God
Mary’s most important role is her role as Theotokos, roughly translated “Mother of God”, but more precisely translated “God-bearer.” Is it proper to call the Virgin Mary the “Mother of God”? Yes! All Protestants acknowledge the biblical teaching of the deity of Christ, but, for the sake of completeness, let us review a key biblical passage. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. (Colossians 2:9) Within the body of the Lord Jesus Christ, the fullness of God dwells. Thus, if Mary gives birth to the body of Jesus Christ, as all Protestants admit, what comes out of her womb is also God, because God indwells the body of Christ. Thus, it is proper to refer to her as the “God-bearer” or Theotokos, and, as a corollary, “Mother of God.”
Ark of the New Covenant In fact, St. Elizabeth says to Mary: And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (Luke 1:43) The question before us is whether the “my Lord” here necessarily refers to the divine nature of Jesus Christ. Could it simply refer to the human nature? This leads directly into the discussion of Mary as the “Ark of the New Covenant”. When Elizabeth asks how it is that the mother of the Lord should come to her, she is directly alluding to these words spoken by the Prophet King David And David was afraid of the Lord that day, and he said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" (2 Samuel 6:9) Ancient Jews memorized the Hebrew Bible. Similarities in wording would jump out at them. It is clear: when St. Elizabeth asks how the mother of the Lord should come to her, she is directly alluding to the Prophet’s words. It is important to note that in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible, YHWH would be replaced by “the Lord” Thus, when Elizabeth calls Mary the “mother of my Lord”, in reference to David’s words, she is calling Mary the “Mother of YHWH”. Thus, it is absolutely proper to call Mary the Mother of God! Furthermore, Elizabeth equates the Ark of the Covenant with the Blessed Virgin Mary. As the Old Ark was the dwelling place of God in the days of the Old Covenant, so the New Ark, the Virgin Mary, is the dwelling place of God the Word in our days, the days of the New Covenant. Let us look at some additional biblical passages which demonstrate her status as Ark of the New Covenant. Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. (Exodus 40:34) The power of the Lord comes over the Ark of the Covenant. Similarly: And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy--the Son of God. (Luke 1:35) The power of the Most High God overshadows the Blessed Virgin, just as it overshadowed the Ark of the Covenant. Listen to what happens when the Ark of the Covenant is brought before David: And David danced before the Lord with all his might. And David was wearing a linen ephod. (2 Samuel 6:14) This linen ephod is a priestly vestment. Likewise, John the Baptist is part of the priestly line of Aaron, and just as David danced when he saw the Ark of the Covenant, so does John the Baptist: And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 1:41) The child, John the Baptist leaps in her womb at hearing the Ark of the Covenant. After David dances before the Ark of the Covenant, the ark remains three months: And the ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months, and the Lord blessed Obed-edom and all his household. (2 Samuel 6:11) And after John the Baptist dances at hearing Mary, she remains three months: And Mary remained with her about three months and returned to her home. (Luke 1:56) Is it possible that all of this is a coincidence? As passage after passage is piled up, it becomes near impossible that it is. The evidence is clear that Luke is presenting Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. In addition, we hear of Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant in the Revelation of John: Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. (Revelation 11:19) We see the Heavenly Temple, and we see the Ark of the Covenant. Would the Ark of the Old Covenant be of any significance? No. The Old Covenant is done away with, and the glory of God has left it's ark. But the New Covenant of Grace is in effect, and its Ark is something glorious. What is this Ark? St. John tells us in the very next passage: And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (Revelation 12:1) Who is this woman? She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne. (Revelation 12:5) And who rules the nations with a rod of iron? God the Word, Jesus Christ. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. (Revelation 19:13-15) So, the woman of Revelation 12 is the mother of Jesus Christ. Who is Christ’s mother? It is, of course, the Blessed Virgin Mary. We see, therefore, that the Ark of the New Covenant is identified clearly as the Virgin Mary in the Apocalypse of John. Some Protestants, however, like to argue that the Woman is not Mary, but Israel, basing their exegesis here: Then he dreamed another dream and told it to his brothers and said, "Behold, I have dreamed another dream. Behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me." (Genesis 37:9) This refers to Israel. So, is Israel a referent in John’s prophecy? Yes! In biblical prophecy it is not uncommon for a prophecy to have multiple referents. Let me give you an example from the famous prophecy of Isaiah: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14) All Christians know that this is ultimately fulfilled in Jesus Christ. However, there is a temporary fulfillment, where an almah who is not a virgin gives birth to a child who is named Immanuel as a sign that God is with them. and it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass on, reaching even to the neck, and its outspread wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel." (Isaiah 8:8) There are some parts where Isaiah refers to both referents, and some parts where he refers to only one. Consider this passage: For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted. (Isaiah 7:16) Was there ever a time when the Lord Jesus Christ did not know good and evil? Never. Thus, verse sixteen refers only to the first referent, and not the messianic referent. Likewise, in Revelation 12, there are portions where John refers to Mary, portions where he refers to Eve, portions where he refers to the Church, and portions where he refers to Israel. Mostly, however, he refers to all four. So, with that said, let us look at the further implications of Revelation 12.
Mother of God
Mary’s most important role is her role as Theotokos, roughly translated “Mother of God”, but more precisely translated “God-bearer.” Is it proper to call the Virgin Mary the “Mother of God”? Yes! All Protestants acknowledge the biblical teaching of the deity of Christ, but, for the sake of completeness, let us review a key biblical passage. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. (Colossians 2:9) Within the body of the Lord Jesus Christ, the fullness of God dwells. Thus, if Mary gives birth to the body of Jesus Christ, as all Protestants admit, what comes out of her womb is also God, because God indwells the body of Christ. Thus, it is proper to refer to her as the “God-bearer” or Theotokos, and, as a corollary, “Mother of God.”
Ark of the New Covenant In fact, St. Elizabeth says to Mary: And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (Luke 1:43) The question before us is whether the “my Lord” here necessarily refers to the divine nature of Jesus Christ. Could it simply refer to the human nature? This leads directly into the discussion of Mary as the “Ark of the New Covenant”. When Elizabeth asks how it is that the mother of the Lord should come to her, she is directly alluding to these words spoken by the Prophet King David And David was afraid of the Lord that day, and he said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" (2 Samuel 6:9) Ancient Jews memorized the Hebrew Bible. Similarities in wording would jump out at them. It is clear: when St. Elizabeth asks how the mother of the Lord should come to her, she is directly alluding to the Prophet’s words. It is important to note that in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible, YHWH would be replaced by “the Lord” Thus, when Elizabeth calls Mary the “mother of my Lord”, in reference to David’s words, she is calling Mary the “Mother of YHWH”. Thus, it is absolutely proper to call Mary the Mother of God! Furthermore, Elizabeth equates the Ark of the Covenant with the Blessed Virgin Mary. As the Old Ark was the dwelling place of God in the days of the Old Covenant, so the New Ark, the Virgin Mary, is the dwelling place of God the Word in our days, the days of the New Covenant. Let us look at some additional biblical passages which demonstrate her status as Ark of the New Covenant. Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. (Exodus 40:34) The power of the Lord comes over the Ark of the Covenant. Similarly: And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy--the Son of God. (Luke 1:35) The power of the Most High God overshadows the Blessed Virgin, just as it overshadowed the Ark of the Covenant. Listen to what happens when the Ark of the Covenant is brought before David: And David danced before the Lord with all his might. And David was wearing a linen ephod. (2 Samuel 6:14) This linen ephod is a priestly vestment. Likewise, John the Baptist is part of the priestly line of Aaron, and just as David danced when he saw the Ark of the Covenant, so does John the Baptist: And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 1:41) The child, John the Baptist leaps in her womb at hearing the Ark of the Covenant. After David dances before the Ark of the Covenant, the ark remains three months: And the ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months, and the Lord blessed Obed-edom and all his household. (2 Samuel 6:11) And after John the Baptist dances at hearing Mary, she remains three months: And Mary remained with her about three months and returned to her home. (Luke 1:56) Is it possible that all of this is a coincidence? As passage after passage is piled up, it becomes near impossible that it is. The evidence is clear that Luke is presenting Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. In addition, we hear of Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant in the Revelation of John: Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. (Revelation 11:19) We see the Heavenly Temple, and we see the Ark of the Covenant. Would the Ark of the Old Covenant be of any significance? No. The Old Covenant is done away with, and the glory of God has left it's ark. But the New Covenant of Grace is in effect, and its Ark is something glorious. What is this Ark? St. John tells us in the very next passage: And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (Revelation 12:1) Who is this woman? She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne. (Revelation 12:5) And who rules the nations with a rod of iron? God the Word, Jesus Christ. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. (Revelation 19:13-15) So, the woman of Revelation 12 is the mother of Jesus Christ. Who is Christ’s mother? It is, of course, the Blessed Virgin Mary. We see, therefore, that the Ark of the New Covenant is identified clearly as the Virgin Mary in the Apocalypse of John. Some Protestants, however, like to argue that the Woman is not Mary, but Israel, basing their exegesis here: Then he dreamed another dream and told it to his brothers and said, "Behold, I have dreamed another dream. Behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me." (Genesis 37:9) This refers to Israel. So, is Israel a referent in John’s prophecy? Yes! In biblical prophecy it is not uncommon for a prophecy to have multiple referents. Let me give you an example from the famous prophecy of Isaiah: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14) All Christians know that this is ultimately fulfilled in Jesus Christ. However, there is a temporary fulfillment, where an almah who is not a virgin gives birth to a child who is named Immanuel as a sign that God is with them. and it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass on, reaching even to the neck, and its outspread wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel." (Isaiah 8:8) There are some parts where Isaiah refers to both referents, and some parts where he refers to only one. Consider this passage: For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted. (Isaiah 7:16) Was there ever a time when the Lord Jesus Christ did not know good and evil? Never. Thus, verse sixteen refers only to the first referent, and not the messianic referent. Likewise, in Revelation 12, there are portions where John refers to Mary, portions where he refers to Eve, portions where he refers to the Church, and portions where he refers to Israel. Mostly, however, he refers to all four. So, with that said, let us look at the further implications of Revelation 12.
Mediatrix
So, Jesus, being the Davidic King of Heaven, has His Davidic queen, His Mother, Mary. What were the functions of the Queen Mother? Intercession before the King. So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her and bowed down to her. Then he sat on his throne and had a seat brought for the king's mother, and she sat on his right. Then she said, "I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me." And the king said to her, "Make your request, my mother, for I will not refuse you." (1 Kings 2:19-20) The Davidic queen, Bathsheba, intercedes on behalf of Adonijah at his request, before the Davidic king, her son Solomon, and Solomon listens with special attention to the request of the queen. This is exactly parallel to the situation today with Orthodox Christians. Orthodox Christians ask for the intercession of our Queen, Mary. She intercedes before her son, Jesus Christ, the King, at our request and He listens with special attention.
So, Jesus, being the Davidic King of Heaven, has His Davidic queen, His Mother, Mary. What were the functions of the Queen Mother? Intercession before the King. So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her and bowed down to her. Then he sat on his throne and had a seat brought for the king's mother, and she sat on his right. Then she said, "I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me." And the king said to her, "Make your request, my mother, for I will not refuse you." (1 Kings 2:19-20) The Davidic queen, Bathsheba, intercedes on behalf of Adonijah at his request, before the Davidic king, her son Solomon, and Solomon listens with special attention to the request of the queen. This is exactly parallel to the situation today with Orthodox Christians. Orthodox Christians ask for the intercession of our Queen, Mary. She intercedes before her son, Jesus Christ, the King, at our request and He listens with special attention.
New Eve
St. John writes: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3) He opens by discussing the beginning of the world, opening with “in the beginning”. Remember that ancient Jews knew the Hebrew Bible from memory. They would immediately think of: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. (Genesis 1:1) Further parallels are drawn: In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1:4-5) And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. (Genesis 1:3-4) Thus, John is writing to parallel the opening chapters of Genesis. He counts the days: Start with one in John’s opening. The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29) Two. The next day again John was standing with two of his disciples. (John 1:35) Three. The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, "Follow me." (John 1:43) Four. On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. (John 2:1) Seven. The wedding at Cana occurs on the seventh day. On the seventh day, Mary asks Him to do something: When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine." (John 2:3) Jesus does a miracle: When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom (John 2:9) We know from the Scripture that Jesus is the New Adam: Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45) What does Eve do to Adam on the seventh day? So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. (Genesis 3:6) On the seventh day after the opening of Genesis, Eve entices Adam to commit his first sin. On the seventh day after the opening of John, who is drawing our minds back to Genesis, Mary entices the New Adam to perform His first miracle. The conclusion is clear: Mary is the New Eve. One can consider also Mary’s obedience to Gabriel vs. Eve’s obedience to Satan: But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:4-5) So, Eve obeys the evil angel Satan, who entices her to bring death into the world. And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. (Luke 1:30-31) Who is Jesus? Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6) Jesus is the Life. Mary consents to the message of the good angel, Gabriel, in bringing Life into the world. Eve consents to the message of the evil angel, Satan, in bringing death into the world. It is clear what the Bible is doing. Mary is clearly the New Eve.
St. John writes: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3) He opens by discussing the beginning of the world, opening with “in the beginning”. Remember that ancient Jews knew the Hebrew Bible from memory. They would immediately think of: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. (Genesis 1:1) Further parallels are drawn: In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1:4-5) And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. (Genesis 1:3-4) Thus, John is writing to parallel the opening chapters of Genesis. He counts the days: Start with one in John’s opening. The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29) Two. The next day again John was standing with two of his disciples. (John 1:35) Three. The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, "Follow me." (John 1:43) Four. On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. (John 2:1) Seven. The wedding at Cana occurs on the seventh day. On the seventh day, Mary asks Him to do something: When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine." (John 2:3) Jesus does a miracle: When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom (John 2:9) We know from the Scripture that Jesus is the New Adam: Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45) What does Eve do to Adam on the seventh day? So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. (Genesis 3:6) On the seventh day after the opening of Genesis, Eve entices Adam to commit his first sin. On the seventh day after the opening of John, who is drawing our minds back to Genesis, Mary entices the New Adam to perform His first miracle. The conclusion is clear: Mary is the New Eve. One can consider also Mary’s obedience to Gabriel vs. Eve’s obedience to Satan: But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:4-5) So, Eve obeys the evil angel Satan, who entices her to bring death into the world. And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. (Luke 1:30-31) Who is Jesus? Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6) Jesus is the Life. Mary consents to the message of the good angel, Gabriel, in bringing Life into the world. Eve consents to the message of the evil angel, Satan, in bringing death into the world. It is clear what the Bible is doing. Mary is clearly the New Eve.
Ever-Virgin
Finally, Orthodox Christians believe that Mary remained a virgin all of her life. The traditional Orthodox position is that the “brothers of Jesus” were actually step-brothers from Joseph’s earlier marriage (he was a widower). Does this position find any support in Scripture? Yes! Let us first address the two indications put forward by Protestants that Mary did not remain a virgin. First: When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. (Matthew 1:24-25) The key word put forward by Protestants is "until". The Greek is "heōs." Where else do we find this Greek word? Matthew 28:20. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until (heōs) the end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20) So, if "heōs" implies an eventual change in action, it means that Jesus will eventually leave us. Next: Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him. (Mark 6:3) Does it ever say that these other children are the children of Mary? No, it says that they are the "brothers of Jesus". Could this mean stepbrothers? Yes, it could, unless you want to argue that Joseph was actually Jesus' blood father. And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about [Jesus]. (Luke 2:33) So, what does Mark 6 actually teach? Why was Jesus called the son of Mary rather than the son of Joseph? As we have seen, it was perfectly acceptable to call Jesus the son of Joseph, so it's not referring to the virginal conception. Why then? Protestant scholar Richard Bauckham answers: "...in Nazareth Jesus would have been known as ‘the son of Mary’ because this distinguished him from the children of Joseph by his first wife." So Mark 6:3, far from being evidence against the traditional doctrine, actually is evidence for it! Finally, consider the words of Jesus to the Apostle John: When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" (John 19:26) Jesus commits the care of the Virgin Mary to the Apostle John. This would have been absolutely unacceptable if she had other children. If the oldest child dies, the care of the mother falls to the next oldest child. If the oldest child is the only child, it is his responsibility to appoint someone to care for his mother in the case that he dies. We can see that Jesus acts as if He is the only child of Mary. As we can see, there is no indication from the Bible that Mary had other children than Jesus, and there are at least two strong indicators against it. From the Bible alone, we can conclude fairly safely that she is a perpetual virgin.
Finally, Orthodox Christians believe that Mary remained a virgin all of her life. The traditional Orthodox position is that the “brothers of Jesus” were actually step-brothers from Joseph’s earlier marriage (he was a widower). Does this position find any support in Scripture? Yes! Let us first address the two indications put forward by Protestants that Mary did not remain a virgin. First: When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. (Matthew 1:24-25) The key word put forward by Protestants is "until". The Greek is "heōs." Where else do we find this Greek word? Matthew 28:20. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until (heōs) the end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20) So, if "heōs" implies an eventual change in action, it means that Jesus will eventually leave us. Next: Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him. (Mark 6:3) Does it ever say that these other children are the children of Mary? No, it says that they are the "brothers of Jesus". Could this mean stepbrothers? Yes, it could, unless you want to argue that Joseph was actually Jesus' blood father. And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about [Jesus]. (Luke 2:33) So, what does Mark 6 actually teach? Why was Jesus called the son of Mary rather than the son of Joseph? As we have seen, it was perfectly acceptable to call Jesus the son of Joseph, so it's not referring to the virginal conception. Why then? Protestant scholar Richard Bauckham answers: "...in Nazareth Jesus would have been known as ‘the son of Mary’ because this distinguished him from the children of Joseph by his first wife." So Mark 6:3, far from being evidence against the traditional doctrine, actually is evidence for it! Finally, consider the words of Jesus to the Apostle John: When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" (John 19:26) Jesus commits the care of the Virgin Mary to the Apostle John. This would have been absolutely unacceptable if she had other children. If the oldest child dies, the care of the mother falls to the next oldest child. If the oldest child is the only child, it is his responsibility to appoint someone to care for his mother in the case that he dies. We can see that Jesus acts as if He is the only child of Mary. As we can see, there is no indication from the Bible that Mary had other children than Jesus, and there are at least two strong indicators against it. From the Bible alone, we can conclude fairly safely that she is a perpetual virgin.
E
Actually the woman in Rev 12 can;t be Mary or the Church. for the following reasons.
1. She gave birth to Christ, The church did not give birth to Christ, Christ birthed the church (yes even OT members of the church were not truely born again until Christ paid the full price. so he even bore their life in him as he paid for their sin)
2. The Beast (satan) is not given permission to touch the woman. Thus he goes after her offspring. and we are told who this is (those who obey his commands) this would be his church.
so the church can not be protected by God, to a point it angers the beast, causing the beast to go after the church, which is protected. It does not fit.
3. It can't be Mary, because she at this point has been long since buried.
1. She gave birth to Christ, The church did not give birth to Christ, Christ birthed the church (yes even OT members of the church were not truely born again until Christ paid the full price. so he even bore their life in him as he paid for their sin)
2. The Beast (satan) is not given permission to touch the woman. Thus he goes after her offspring. and we are told who this is (those who obey his commands) this would be his church.
so the church can not be protected by God, to a point it angers the beast, causing the beast to go after the church, which is protected. It does not fit.
3. It can't be Mary, because she at this point has been long since buried.
You can lead a horse to water but you can not make him drink. eternally-grateful is not open for discussion no matter how much we show, eternal will tell us about the biblical knowledge he only posses. There is no way in over 2000 years of christianity that any church got it right until the "reformers" for not using the word prophet came to fight the church about 400 or 500 years ago.
If they got it right why?
- They talk about non-negotiables, where is that in the bible? [no comment]
- Sola scripture, where is that in the bible? [tradition]
- Pray only to Jesus, Where does that leave Father and Holy Spirit? [tradition]
- We are supposed to be one faith one unity, but every church over thousands claim the truth? That is not unity
- Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, so why Re-marying divorced people? [disregard the commandments]
- The bible is Inspired, but the bible never said which books are inspired.
- The Sinners prayer [tradition]
- Believe in Jesus only and be saved? You must believe but it is not the only thing we must do to be saved. [tradition]
- The doxology was added latter to the Lords prayer, What happened to never add or take away from the word?[bible addition]
- Infant dedications, in leu if infant baptisms. [tradition]
- Denying infants baptism
- Bible Studies are nowhere in the Holy Scriptures. Whenever "the Scriptures" are discussed in the Holy Bible, they are in the form of teaching or edification, not a "This is what it means to me, what do you think?" approach. [tradition]
- No Dancing, nowhere does the bible say this
- No drinking really, how much alcohol was mentioned and used in the bible?
- Tithing should not be done forcefully or by coercion
- Not praying the Lords Prayer. The words Jesus taught us to pray [tradition]
- Altar calls, where is that? [tradition]
- Separate the children from adults during worship, who came up with that? [tradition]
I got more but this shall suffice for me to make my point.
I do not think all is bad.
If they got it right why?
- They talk about non-negotiables, where is that in the bible? [no comment]
- Sola scripture, where is that in the bible? [tradition]
- Pray only to Jesus, Where does that leave Father and Holy Spirit? [tradition]
- We are supposed to be one faith one unity, but every church over thousands claim the truth? That is not unity
- Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, so why Re-marying divorced people? [disregard the commandments]
- The bible is Inspired, but the bible never said which books are inspired.
- The Sinners prayer [tradition]
- Believe in Jesus only and be saved? You must believe but it is not the only thing we must do to be saved. [tradition]
- The doxology was added latter to the Lords prayer, What happened to never add or take away from the word?[bible addition]
- Infant dedications, in leu if infant baptisms. [tradition]
- Denying infants baptism
- Bible Studies are nowhere in the Holy Scriptures. Whenever "the Scriptures" are discussed in the Holy Bible, they are in the form of teaching or edification, not a "This is what it means to me, what do you think?" approach. [tradition]
- No Dancing, nowhere does the bible say this
- No drinking really, how much alcohol was mentioned and used in the bible?
- Tithing should not be done forcefully or by coercion
- Not praying the Lords Prayer. The words Jesus taught us to pray [tradition]
- Altar calls, where is that? [tradition]
- Separate the children from adults during worship, who came up with that? [tradition]
I got more but this shall suffice for me to make my point.
I do not think all is bad.
J
This is, by far the, the closest description of Christ I have read.
Jhn 1:14 actually explains this. Once it is realized that John was a fisherman, first, you know that when sales are "made", they are fastened to the mast. Therefore, the Word, (Jehovah) was fastened to the flesh, i.e. That Holy Thing spoken of in Luke 1:35.
Jhn 1:14- And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Luk 1:35 KJV - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Jhn 1:14 actually explains this. Once it is realized that John was a fisherman, first, you know that when sales are "made", they are fastened to the mast. Therefore, the Word, (Jehovah) was fastened to the flesh, i.e. That Holy Thing spoken of in Luke 1:35.
Jhn 1:14- And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Luk 1:35 KJV - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
E
since when has God overruled mans free will? Did not the same God promise the exact same thing to the nation of Israel? And did he not allow them to use their free will to walk away from him and add all kinds of traditions of men, and laws of men into their old testament scripture? Are we foolish enough to think that yeah it happened to them, but it could never happen to us? (Did not paul even tell us not to be so proud that what happened to them CAN happen to us??)
No I do not believe Jesus is weak, but I do believe he is not going to stop men from doing what men are going to do..Which is why he gave them his word. so they could test (they failed, which is why they crucified him, because they took their man made tradition and writings over the writings God gave them) what is said and writen by men with the word of God. he did the same thing for us.. yet here we go again, making the same mistakes. placing the writings and traditions of men equal with the word of God..
and your right, we do not follow the same God. My God keeps his word. When he says whoever believes in him (eats his flesh and drinks his blood, partakes of the true bread from heaven) they will never hunger or thirst. Not have to eat over and over, like our fathers did in the desert, Live forever, never die, and given his assurance, they HAVE eternal life, and thus will be raised on the last day. Not some man made tradition where we eat once a week. and are not assured ANY of what Jesus said we would get if we eat just once completely. Your god can't keep his word.. which is why do continue to try to work for eternal life, Instead of letting God give it to you.
yeah we do. Which is why God gave us his word. so we can test all spirits.. And not listen to men.. who may claim to be from God. but their traditions, when placed with scripture alone, do not stand the test of the word of God.
E
of course you don;t get it. Your listening to men and their tradition. and not looking for scripture and taking what it says at face value.
How can the woman be the church when she is protected. and at the same time, given into the beasts hands for 3 1/2 years.. it can't be the same person. And it can not be mary, because mary will have long since been dead by the time this prophesy takes place.
How can the woman be the church when she is protected. and at the same time, given into the beasts hands for 3 1/2 years.. it can't be the same person. And it can not be mary, because mary will have long since been dead by the time this prophesy takes place.
All those things are SYMBOLS.
Mary hiding her and baby Jesus at Egypt SYMBOLIZES Early Church and hiding of Christians from Romans pagans.Didn't u know that early Christians were killed on hundred thousands because of their faith?
If somehow i would listen u,i would listen to a MAN.On the other hand CHURCH isn't a MAN but revelations of God to his saints.
Mary hiding her and baby Jesus at Egypt SYMBOLIZES Early Church and hiding of Christians from Romans pagans.Didn't u know that early Christians were killed on hundred thousands because of their faith?
If somehow i would listen u,i would listen to a MAN.On the other hand CHURCH isn't a MAN but revelations of God to his saints.
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E
Yes they are symbols. they are used to tell us about a time. and about three groups of people at this time (the woman, her offspring, and the beast and his empire)
1. This time will be when a world leader comes of of ten kings,
2. This leader will be part of the reformed roman empire
3. This leader will be granted authority to do what he wants to the offspring of the woman for 3 1/2 years.
4. This leader will be destroyed by Christ himself at his return.
Nothing you just told me has anything to do with what revelations tells me will happen. it is just opinion not based on anything, but maybe the writings of men.
as for who to listen to. NO ONE. Listen to God. An entity which calls itself the church, yet does not interpret scripture logically and correctly. and needs outside things to support its interpretations is not the church. The CHurch, (real church) would be 100 % supported by scripture. and not need any writings of men outside of scripture to support it.
The jews and their religion at the time of Christ, was the chosen of God. But they in their belief needed outside of Gods word to support their beliefs, If they would have stuck to scripture. they would have seen Christ for who he was. and not rejected him..
again. we should learn from the mistakes of the past. and not keep making the same mistakes over and over.
1. This time will be when a world leader comes of of ten kings,
2. This leader will be part of the reformed roman empire
3. This leader will be granted authority to do what he wants to the offspring of the woman for 3 1/2 years.
4. This leader will be destroyed by Christ himself at his return.
Nothing you just told me has anything to do with what revelations tells me will happen. it is just opinion not based on anything, but maybe the writings of men.
as for who to listen to. NO ONE. Listen to God. An entity which calls itself the church, yet does not interpret scripture logically and correctly. and needs outside things to support its interpretations is not the church. The CHurch, (real church) would be 100 % supported by scripture. and not need any writings of men outside of scripture to support it.
The jews and their religion at the time of Christ, was the chosen of God. But they in their belief needed outside of Gods word to support their beliefs, If they would have stuck to scripture. they would have seen Christ for who he was. and not rejected him..
again. we should learn from the mistakes of the past. and not keep making the same mistakes over and over.
P
There is only one body the church, and the woman is a part of the church as God doesn’t separate Jewish Christians from non-Jewish Christians for that would be showing respect of persons and God is no respecter of persons, for there is no Jew or Greek in Christ Jesus, and we are all made perfect in one. And one body, one baptism, and one spiritual drink.
The woman is the church and her seed is her fruit in the last days.
It’s no hard to see how flees in times of trouble, and it’s not hard to see who stays, just watch the news.
The woman is the church and her seed is her fruit in the last days.
It’s no hard to see how flees in times of trouble, and it’s not hard to see who stays, just watch the news.
E
Some people don;t get it.
God uses this time to bring Israel back to him. The woman is not saved or unsaved Isreal, it is ALL isreal.
It is her offspring who are doing the commandments of God. NOT THE WOMAN HERSELF.
Why do you think it is not till the end of this time that ALL Israel is saved? This is the end of the age of the gentiles. The last 3 1/2 years of her glory (in her Eyes) and power.. when Gentile dominion and the final beast is destroyed.
of Course God also protects gentiles who are not saved, but who he KNOWS will be saved.. He protects them all.. That is why he protects them.. The church is already saved. They already have eternity. He protects those who he will bring to him..
your respecter of persons crap is getting old. He is a respecter. He protects those who are not saved yet.. He allows them who will not get saved to have power for 3 1/2 years. then he will destroy them. It is so simple. yet people are so closed minded about it. Why???
No. The church DID NOT GIVE BIRTH TO CHRIST CHRIST BIRTHED THE CHURCH. A child can not give birth to the parent. this is ridiculous. The church was bore by the blood of Christ. All who are saved from adam till the last man who comes to Christ ever are saved and in the family of God BECAUSE OF THIS DEATH. He bore them ALL!!
lol, This is nothing. great tribulation will make everything this earth has ever seen look like a picnic. This is what God says, What Christ said, And what John said. Do you think this is trouble?? You ain''t seen nothing yet!
God uses this time to bring Israel back to him. The woman is not saved or unsaved Isreal, it is ALL isreal.
It is her offspring who are doing the commandments of God. NOT THE WOMAN HERSELF.
Why do you think it is not till the end of this time that ALL Israel is saved? This is the end of the age of the gentiles. The last 3 1/2 years of her glory (in her Eyes) and power.. when Gentile dominion and the final beast is destroyed.
of Course God also protects gentiles who are not saved, but who he KNOWS will be saved.. He protects them all.. That is why he protects them.. The church is already saved. They already have eternity. He protects those who he will bring to him..
your respecter of persons crap is getting old. He is a respecter. He protects those who are not saved yet.. He allows them who will not get saved to have power for 3 1/2 years. then he will destroy them. It is so simple. yet people are so closed minded about it. Why???
No. The church DID NOT GIVE BIRTH TO CHRIST CHRIST BIRTHED THE CHURCH. A child can not give birth to the parent. this is ridiculous. The church was bore by the blood of Christ. All who are saved from adam till the last man who comes to Christ ever are saved and in the family of God BECAUSE OF THIS DEATH. He bore them ALL!!
lol, This is nothing. great tribulation will make everything this earth has ever seen look like a picnic. This is what God says, What Christ said, And what John said. Do you think this is trouble?? You ain''t seen nothing yet!
E
No, it is you who does not get it.
He is not blessing them, he is protecting them so they have a chance to repent (which is says they will. ot Scripture calls this the time of jacobs trouble, Go duses this to cause them to seek him, and when they do, he opens their eyes and they repent. This is why he protects them. so prophesy can be fulfilled. NOT TO BLESS THEM.
they are only protected for 3.5 years. the beast is given power for 3.5 years.. Your interpretation has them being the old church, and her offspring the church of the last days, he protects them IN THE LAST DAYS.. this you CANT BE RIGHT.. because it is these same last day that while she is protected. he is given authority to go after the church.
It says so in Dan 7. And it says so in Rev 12 and 13.
open your eyes man!
He is not blessing them, he is protecting them so they have a chance to repent (which is says they will. ot Scripture calls this the time of jacobs trouble, Go duses this to cause them to seek him, and when they do, he opens their eyes and they repent. This is why he protects them. so prophesy can be fulfilled. NOT TO BLESS THEM.
they are only protected for 3.5 years. the beast is given power for 3.5 years.. Your interpretation has them being the old church, and her offspring the church of the last days, he protects them IN THE LAST DAYS.. this you CANT BE RIGHT.. because it is these same last day that while she is protected. he is given authority to go after the church.
It says so in Dan 7. And it says so in Rev 12 and 13.
open your eyes man!
I posted this in another forum so I brought it to the right place.
Mary was called by the Angel St Gabriel Luke 1:28: "Hail, full of grace" that is the only time in the Old or New Testament an angel addresses a person by title [hail Caesar ring a bell]
Full of grace. You know grace, if a person is full of grace does it have sin inside? Full of Grace, not having grace or needing grace or you need grace. She was Full of it, no room for error.
The Lord is with thee. The Lord, remember the apostles were Jews, they Highly respected the name of God, to call Him Lord was to respect the name of God and not blaspheme against it, they where not englishmen describing royal family. Jesus id the Lord and Jesus is God means the same.
When we call Her mother we are echoing the words of St Elizabeth, remember her? Mother of John the Baptist? She says "who am I that the Mother of My Lord" she did not say the Mother of My Lords human's nature, mothers don't bear nature's they bear persons. In this case she bears the Son of God, God the Son, second person of the trinity. So it moves from affirming Jesus as divine to, Mary's divine maternity. She is not the origination of God but she is the recipient of this extraordinary grace of divine Motherhood. [Scott Hahn]
If you think that having the Son of God and witnessing the most beautiful miracle in history, raising Him, feeding Him, keeping Him from harm was put to the side and they cave in to the flesh. Keeps being your interpretation, you seem to interpret out of secular world practices and seem to forget the greatest miracle that ever happened. God became Human! She had to be betrothed to St Joseph in order to have the lineage to king David as it is shown in the story of the census, that was to make the connection to fulfill the prophesy.
But you if you interpret this as a lottery ticket winner as most do, you can't see the true miracle that God has given us.
Mary was called by the Angel St Gabriel Luke 1:28: "Hail, full of grace" that is the only time in the Old or New Testament an angel addresses a person by title [hail Caesar ring a bell]
Full of grace. You know grace, if a person is full of grace does it have sin inside? Full of Grace, not having grace or needing grace or you need grace. She was Full of it, no room for error.
The Lord is with thee. The Lord, remember the apostles were Jews, they Highly respected the name of God, to call Him Lord was to respect the name of God and not blaspheme against it, they where not englishmen describing royal family. Jesus id the Lord and Jesus is God means the same.
When we call Her mother we are echoing the words of St Elizabeth, remember her? Mother of John the Baptist? She says "who am I that the Mother of My Lord" she did not say the Mother of My Lords human's nature, mothers don't bear nature's they bear persons. In this case she bears the Son of God, God the Son, second person of the trinity. So it moves from affirming Jesus as divine to, Mary's divine maternity. She is not the origination of God but she is the recipient of this extraordinary grace of divine Motherhood. [Scott Hahn]
If you think that having the Son of God and witnessing the most beautiful miracle in history, raising Him, feeding Him, keeping Him from harm was put to the side and they cave in to the flesh. Keeps being your interpretation, you seem to interpret out of secular world practices and seem to forget the greatest miracle that ever happened. God became Human! She had to be betrothed to St Joseph in order to have the lineage to king David as it is shown in the story of the census, that was to make the connection to fulfill the prophesy.
But you if you interpret this as a lottery ticket winner as most do, you can't see the true miracle that God has given us.