Mary the mother of my Lord (Heresy?)

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Nov 22, 2012
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Roman Catholic Church have something what is called Imaculate conception,which refer that Mary haven't any sin(was sinless) because she had to born perfect man(Jesus Christ).Something like that.

Orthodox Church on the other side,consider Theotokos only as Mother of Lord,but as sinner who also needed a Savior.
Those two things are,u must say,very different.
 
Nov 22, 2012
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I am awaiting your answer. I believe in God's plan, and that He controls everything. But I think tradition is uneven, and needs to be evaluated for who said what. Scripture has been evaluated for each word, and we know the Holy Spirit said it all. I think it unlikely Joseph would have accepted the betrothal to a virgin, without expecting her to be able to have children, because he was a righteous man.

Sure that God had a plan how to save human kind.
I don't know what is so strange in that about Joseph marriage,when he was on 1st place an older man.I will try to find who wrote what,but i know that many things were written in Church Sacred Tradition from a directly witnesses of those events.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
Sure that God had a plan how to save human kind.
I don't know what is so strange in that about Joseph marriage,when he was on 1st place an older man.I will try to find who wrote what,but i know that many things were written in Church Sacred Tradition from a directly witnesses of those events.
There is something that needs explaining here. It is unlikely that any Israelite man would have considered it righteous to condemn a girl to never having a child. The Catholics claim it was because she took a vow of permanent virginity, but that it just not part of Israelite culture. Also, if true, why not just let her live in the temple and be cared for by people like Anna, the prophetess, who a year later prophesied over baby Jesus?
 
Nov 22, 2012
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There is something that needs explaining here. It is unlikely that any Israelite man would have considered it righteous to condemn a girl to never having a child. The Catholics claim it was because she took a vow of permanent virginity, but that it just not part of Israelite culture. Also, if true, why not just let her live in the temple and be cared for by people like Anna, the prophetess, who a year later prophesied over baby Jesus?

Entry of Virgin Mary into the Temple
Selecting a Husband, Joseph, for Mary the Theotokos










That fall at the feast time when many important persons would be in Jerusalem, the priests decided to seek their advice about how to deal with this difficult situation they faced dealing with Mary.
They met in council and discussed the matter. They said to Zacharias, “Do you not stand before the altar of the Lord and enter into the holy place? Petition the Lord concerning her and whatsoever the Lord makes manifest to you, that you must perform.”
This he did. While they all prayed he entered the holy place wearing the vestment called the breastplate of judgment and petitioned God about how to deal with Mary. An angel came to Zacharias and said, “Zacharias, Zacharias, go forth and call together all the widowers among the people and have each man bring his rod or staff. And the one to whom the Lord shall show a sign, shall be the husband of Mary.” The matter concerning to whom the virgin should be given and be betrothed would be resolved in accordance with the prophecy of Isaiah, where he says, ‘there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a blossom shall come up from his root’ [Is 11:1]. In this way God told Zacharias to betroth the virgin so that the devil might overlook her as the possible virgin of Isaiah’s prophecy.
One of the priests by name Abiathar stood us and said, “Hear me, O sons of Israel, and receive my words into your ears. Since the time when this temple was built by Solomon, there have been in it virgins, the daughters of kings and the daughters of prophets, and of high priests and priests. They were great and worthy of admiration. But when the maidens came to the proper age they were given in marriage and followed the path of their mothers; and they were pleasing to God. However, Mary has found a new order of life, for she has vowed to remain a virgin to God. Wherefore, it seems to me, that by the answer we received as a result of our inquiry, we should try and ascertain to whom Mary should be entrusted.”
The others approved of what he said. A lot was cast by the priests on the twelve tribes and it fell to the tribe of Judah. Then all the eligible widowers of Judah were summoned. They called out, “Let every man who has no wife come and bring his rod in hand.”
At that time there was a widower named Joseph who was about eighty years of age. He was of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David. He had been married for forty years and was a widower of about one year. He was a carpenter by trade and lived honorably. His first wife Salome had borne seven children: James, Jude, Simon and Joses; and three daughters: Salome (future mother of Apostles James and John the Theologian), Esther and a third girl. Joseph came with other widowers and handed his rod over to the high priest. The angel told the priest to place the rods in the Holy of Holies where they were to remain until the following day. The sign that was to be shown was that out of whoever’s rod a flower budded forth was the one to whom the virgin was to be betrothed.
The next day all the widowers assembled and the high priest went into the altar to retrieve the rods. After they had been distributed no sign appeared. The priest then put on the sacerdotal robe and the twelve bells and entered the Holy of Holies offering a sacrifice. As he entered an angel pointed out to him that there was the shortest rod which had not been taken out with the others. The angel told him to take it and the sign will appear. The rod was that of Joseph. Joseph since we was very old had not requested his rod back feeling he was too old for this task anyway. The priest called to him, “Joseph, come and receive the rod; for we are waiting for thee.” Joseph was trembling as he came forward. As soon as he touched the rod a flower budded and flowered from its top.


All those gathered congratulated Joseph for the blessing he had received in his old age. The priests said to him, “ Take her, because of all the tribe of Judah you alone have been chosen by God. Take the virgin of the Lord and keep her for Him.” Joseph resisting this responsibility replied that he was a very old man with children and grandchildren and wondered why they would hand to him this young child.
The priest Abiathar said, “Remember Joseph, Dathan, Abiram and Korah perished when the earth opened and swallowed them up, because they contradicted and despised the will of God [Num 16:25-33]. So it will happen to you and your family if you choose to despise what is commanded of you by God.” Joseph did not want to despise the will of God. He agreed to be her guardian until God determines to which of his sons can have her as a wife. But the priest Abiatha then said, “Five virgins shall be given to her for consolation, until the appointed day shall come when you may receive her, for she shall marry no other man.”
 
Nov 22, 2012
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All of the things that were happened was foretold and were guided by God.As u can see here,nothing were accident.
 
L

liv4luv_bunmi

Guest
1. Mary was never the mother of GOD, but a woman favoured amongst all women.
Luke 1:27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28 And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!" 29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

2. The woman who had been referred to has the mother of God by some, could not even tell when her son (as they claimed) would come into the world and how it would be. Why then do you call her the mother of God. Christ even asked to the people around Him why they call Him son of David when even David in his days called Him his Lord. Please, study your bible to know the Truth for you to be freed.
Luke1:31 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 "And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end." 34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" 35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

3. Besides, Our Lord Jesus said those who do the will of the Father is His mother and brothers and sisters and by the reason of physical relationship like that of Mary the mother of Jesus.
Mathew 12:46-48 46 ¶ While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You." 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 "For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
originaly posted by Geometar

Then all the eligible widowers of Judah were summoned. They called out, “Let every man who has no wife come and bring his rod in hand.”

Joseph was the one who was chosen.

but it says here he wanted to resist? "Joseph resisting this responsibility replied that he was a very old man with children and grandchildren and wondered why they would hand
to him this young child.

so i have to ask if he thought that at such of an old age why did he turn up in the first place.

geometar this could be true for all i know but the rise of christians did not start until the death of Jesus. and the apostles and apostles farthers namely Zacharia did not have authority of summon papers.

so they would have had to reason with Joseph to turn up and with Joseph already resisting after he was chosen i can not understand it.

also geometar do you know the source of this information as i have tried to find out? "is this written in any bibles
 
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Dec 5, 2012
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I wonder which Bible you are using for it is "Hail, full of grace" not "rejoice, favored one"

Notice if we just focus here on the translation how much water down has her blessing come to.

"Hail" [Ave in latin] was a term used for Royalty then. Hail Caesar, Hail King of the Jews.

Also notice how she was not addressed by name, but by "Full of Grace" [Gratia Plena in Latin] To be full of grace is to have no room for sin, as we know from Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. [the more grace we have the less sin we have] And she was FULL of Grace.

The statement "The Lord is with you" came from an angel and not men. The Jews respect the name of God so much they also use the word Lord instead of His name in order to not blaspheme against His name. You can find the use of the word Lord many times in the Old testament when referring to God, so it is safe to say that the statement means "God is with you" and this was said to Her before she had Jesus in Her body. The angel did not say "God was with you" or "God is now with you" or "God will be with you", but God IS with you.

People understand that God already knew He was going to send His Son Jesus to die for our sins, don't you think that God had all of it planned out. The Blessed Virgin Mary was not a lottery winner or an incubator she was the Mother of God.

People think that a Mother has to be first, not so. Was not Adam made before Eve. This was also another clue God had given us to understand.

Does this make The Blessed Virgin Mary a God? Not so, but it does place her in a high position.
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
I wonder which Bible you are using

Can i ask what your views are on this .

In the Old Testament the term "queen of heaven" appears in a context unrelated to Mary. The prophet Jeremiah writing circa 628 BC refers to a "queen of heaven" in chapters 7 and 44 of the Book of Jeremiah when he scolds the people for having "sinned against the Lord" due to their idolatrous practices of burning incense, making cakes and pouring out drink offerings to her. This title was probably given to Asherah, a Caananite idol and goddess worshipped in ancient Israel and Judah. [31] For a discussion of "queen of heaven" in the Old Testament, see Queen of heaven antiquity
 
Dec 5, 2012
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I wonder which Bible you are using

Can i ask what your views are on this .

In the Old Testament the term "queen of heaven" appears in a context unrelated to Mary. The prophet Jeremiah writing circa 628 BC refers to a "queen of heaven" in chapters 7 and 44 of the Book of Jeremiah when he scolds the people for having "sinned against the Lord" due to their idolatrous practices of burning incense, making cakes and pouring out drink offerings to her. This title was probably given to Asherah, a Caananite idol and goddess worshipped in ancient Israel and Judah. [31] For a discussion of "queen of heaven" in the Old Testament, see Queen of heaven antiquity
Indeed this people worshiped another God. Some catholics have been excommunicated from the church for making the Blessed Virgin Mary a God. This is heresy. I do not worship the Blessed Virgin Mary. I do hold her at a high level, Under God. To say that she takes away from God is to say the moon takes away from the sun. Also remember that Revelations 12 mentions the Queen of Heaven in a positive way.
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
Indeed this people worshiped another God. Some catholics have been excommunicated from the church for making the Blessed Virgin Mary a God. This is heresy. I do not worship the Blessed Virgin Mary. I do hold her at a high level, Under God. To say that she takes away from God is to say the moon takes away from the sun. Also remember that Revelations 12 mentions the Queen of Heaven in a positive way.
Well thanks for clearing that up .
Can i ask what are your views are they same as geometors views on how Joseph was chosen.
 
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Nov 22, 2012
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originaly posted by Geometar

Then all the eligible widowers of Judah were summoned. They called out, “Let every man who has no wife come and bring his rod in hand.”

Joseph was the one who was chosen.

but it says here he wanted to resist? "Joseph resisting this responsibility replied that he was a very old man with children and grandchildren and wondered why they would hand
to him this young child.

so i have to ask if he thought that at such of an old age why did he turn up in the first place.

geometar this could be true for all i know but the rise of christians did not start until the death of Jesus. and the apostles and apostles farthers namely Zacharia did not have authority of summon papers.

so they would have had to reason with Joseph to turn up and with Joseph already resisting after he was chosen i can not understand it.

also geometar do you know the source of this information as i have tried to find out? "is this written in any bibles
This is Sacred Tradition.I am sure.But i will look it up again.

He had to turn up because all widowers among the people had to be there.That was a commandment.
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
This is Sacred Tradition.I am sure.But i will look it up again.

He had to turn up because all widowers among the people had to be there.That was a commandment.

I have to question this, somewhere in the back of my mind i have herd this before.

But i have to question it as i feel that something as big of a statement as this would be wtitten in the bible? " i wonder Why it is not '.
 
Dec 5, 2012
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Well thanks for clearing that up .
Can i ask what are your views are they same as geometors views on how Joseph was chosen.
I have no study what Geometors is talking about so I can not comment. I know there are some writings about it, but this has been as far as I have gone, meaning I do not know. :p
 
Dec 5, 2012
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I have to question this, somewhere in the back of my mind i have herd this before.

But i have to question it as i feel that something as big of a statement as this would be wtitten in the bible? " i wonder Why it is not '.
If this would have been in the bible, what message of salvation would you get from it?
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
I have no study what Geometors is talking about so I can not comment. I know there are some writings about it, but this has been as far as I have gone, meaning I do not know. :p
Lol i do not either and i wonder what exactly those prods where .

Where they walking sticks ?.

When they sent the commandment out was it the case they only wanted guys with prods because they would of been less of a threat to mary .
 
Dec 5, 2012
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Well if you pay attention you can see the "apple" Adam ate came from a tree, Moses showed sings with his staff which comes from a tree, The burning bush [tree] the cross [tree]

When you come to think about it the tree seems to be a very powerful element isn't it.
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
e I dont really know but the more i read this thread the more i go off my tree.


Só back to the prod stick só what you meen is they where all staffs like when moses struck the rock.
Só there where lots of wand wavoring people back then
 
Nov 22, 2012
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I have to question this, somewhere in the back of my mind i have herd this before.

But i have to question it as i feel that something as big of a statement as this would be wtitten in the bible? " i wonder Why it is not '.

New Testament staring with conception of the Messiah.This event was an Old Testament,but as u can see,in the Sacred Tradition u will get an Old Testament prophecy verses how do they chouse Joseph.
I would like to hear what one Protestant can say about this topic.
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
Rock 22 can i ask what your views are on this

The Catholic teaching on this subject is expressed in the papal encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam, [1] issued by Pope Pius XII. It states that Mary is called Queen of Heaven because her son, Jesus Christ, is the king of Israel and heavenly king of the universe