Mary the mother of my Lord (Heresy?)

[Geometar]

I found this article its very well explained and may give you a better understanding of catholics beliefs.


Why do Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception? The belief means that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was preserved without sin for her entire life.

The Immaculate Conception

It was Mary's closeness to Christ that made her receive God's "fullness of grace" to be sinless. Without God's grace, it would have been impossible for Mary to be sinless, and she too would be like the rest of humanity. However, because of her decision to say, "yes" in giving birth to Christ, she was given a special privilege by having no sin touch her. Catholics believe that God wanted a perfectly pure woman to carry His Son, the God of the universe, for nothing else short of perfection would do.The Immaculate Conception of Mary continues to be a major disagreement point by other Christian denominations towards the Catholic faith. Many people say that the Immaculate Conception somehow takes away from Christ's glory and message. Some will say that this belief in Mary is not found in the Bible, or that it blatantly contradicts the Bible's words. There are also thousands of people who mistakenly believe what the Catholic Church teaches about the Immaculate Conception, which unfortunately has lead to many misguided opinions. What evidence do Catholics have to defend their belief in Mary's Immaculate Conception?

Evidence from the Scriptures:

"And the angel came in unto her, and said, hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." - Luke 1:28​

It is the term "full of grace" that is emphasized by the Church when dealing with Mary's Immaculate Conception. The title "full of grace" comes from the Greek word kecharitomene, which describes a "perfection" and "abundance" of grace. In other words, Mary was proclaimed by the angel to be with a perfection of grace, which was a very powerful statement. How can Mary be completely and perfectly with God's grace, yet still have sin left in her? Christians eventually came to recognize that it was extremely possible for Mary to be without sin, especially if she was completely filled with God's grace. Luke 1:28 happens to be the only place in the Bible where anyone is addressed with the important title of "full of grace."

"…the Holy Ghost shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God." - Luke 1:35​

Luke 1:35 shows Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. According to the Old Testament, the Ark of the Covenant was the pure and holy vessel that held the Ten Commandments (the Old Covenant). The Ark was so holy in fact, that if anyone where to touch it they could actually fall down and die! It was housed in the Holy of Holies, which was a perfectly clean place where the Jewish high priests could enter only once a year according to their law (See Lev. 16:2-4). So how are Mary and the Ark related? The same language that describes God's "dwelling" place for the Old Ark is used again for Mary's overshadowing by the Holy Spirit. Put another way, the Old Ark held God's Ten Commandments and could not be touched by human hands because of its holiness. Mary, the New Ark, holds the New Covenant in her womb, which is Jesus Christ. How much holier is Christ than the Ten Commandments? It only makes sense that for Mary to hold God in her womb, she too would be completely pure and without any sin.

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed (offspring) and hers; He (she) will crush your head while you strike at his (her) heel." - Genesis 3:15​

What does the book of Genesis have to do with Mary's Immaculate Conception? Genesis 3:15 is the first passage in the Bible that refers to Jesus defeating Satan on the cross. It is also the first verse that shows us how Mary would become the New Eve. The seed of the woman, who would crush the serpent's head, is Jesus. The woman at enmity, or hostility with the serpent, is Mary. It was God who put this hostility between Mary and Satan (the serpent), and it is believed to be in the same likeness as Christ's hostility for the seed of the serpent. What exactly does all this mean? For Mary to be like Christ in His hostility for Satan forever, it is very possible to say that this passage implies Mary's lack of sin. What better way is there to be in total hostility with Satan than to be in God's constant grace? As the New Eve, Mary undid the "no" of the Old Testament Eve by saying, "yes" to carry Jesus.

Evidence from History:
Pope Pius IX officially defined the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception in the year 1854. He did so with the understanding that this belief would help the Catholic faithful grow spiritually towards Christ. The belief that Mary was without sin was not "invented" as numerous people mistakenly think. Many are still under the false impression that the Immaculate Conception was not believed until the year 1854 when it was defined. What they fail to realize is that the belief itself has extremely strong roots in Church writings going well back into the 4th century.

"Every personal sin must be excluded from the Blessed Virgin Mary for the sake of the honor of God." - St. Augustine, 390 AD.

"Mary, a virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free from every stain." - St. Ambrose of Milan, 340-370 AD.

"You, and your Mother are alone in this. You are wholly beautiful in every respect. There is in you, Lord, no stain, nor any spot in your Mother." - St. Ephraem, 350 AD.​

In fact, there are literally dozens of cases where early Church fathers have mentioned Mary as being without sin, using such words as "All-Holy One," "All-Sinless One," and "Immaculate." It proves that the idea of Mary's sinlessness was not uncommon in the first few centuries of the Church. As time passed, the Eastern Church began to show its strong love for the Immaculate Conception with its own feast day beginning in the 8th to 9th century. By the 12th century, the Western Church was celebrating the feast of the Immaculate Conception all over Europe, and by the end of the 15th century, it was universally recognized and defended as true Christian doctrine.

This thing isnt something what Orthodox could agree.

 

[quickfire]

do what? The ark represented Christ. Not mary. Mary has no ability or right to show mercy to anyone. Only Christ has the ability to allow the father to forgive our sins.

I DID NOT SAY THE ARK REPRESENTED MARY...

what i said was the box looks like a picture of the ark in the holy of holies, where the high priest would visit every once and a while.

and while mary was alive on planet earth she would have had as much right to show mercy to people just like you or i have a right to show mercy.

can i ask do you think mary could have visited the holy of holies

 

[quickfire]

This thing isnt something what Orthodox could agree.

what that Mary was preserved without sin before she was born.

are you orthodox or rc

 

[Geometar]

I DID NOT SAY THE ARK REPRESENTED MARY...

what i said was the box looks like a picture of the ark in the holy of holies, where the high priest would visit every once and a while.

and while mary was alive on planet earth she would have had as much right to show mercy to people just like you or i have a right to show mercy.

can i ask do you think mary could have visited the holy of holies

Theotokos is indeed the Ark of New Covenant.

 

[Geometar]

what that Mary was preserved without sin before she was born.

are you orthodox or rc

Orthodox.Imaculate conception is wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I DID NOT SAY THE ARK REPRESENTED MARY...

what i said was the box looks like a picture of the ark in the holy of holies, where the high priest would visit every once and a while.

and while mary was alive on planet earth she would have had as much right to show mercy to people just like you or i have a right to show mercy.

Yet none of us have the ability to save anyone. Nor did mary. to grant mercy which forgave all sin, and allowed a person to be born again. Only Christ has that authority. The ark represented Christ. Before Christ came, The ark was used as a teaching tool to show how God would show mercy to people and save them. After Christ came. the teaching use of the ark was no longer valid.

can i ask do you think mary could have visited the holy of holies

No. If God was actually in the inner sanctum (which he had not been for hundreds of years even before Christ came, which is why the current high priest could enter in Christ's day and did not suffer the fate of the many those who entered in the days God's presence was there) mary would have been put to death, Only the High Priest was allowed to enter. and only after he completed some rituals, or else he would have been put to death immediately (which did happen a few times) Thats why they had to tie a rope to him before he entered, in case they had to pull him out. No one else could enter.

 

[quickfire]

Theotokos is indeed the Ark of New Covenant.

geo i ment the box in the picture it look like the old ark.

i understand the new ark now i did not before

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Theotokos is indeed the Ark of New Covenant.

The ark of the covenant represented christ. Not mary. mary certainly is not the new ark.

 

[quickfire]

No. If God was actually in the inner sanctum (which he had not been for hundreds of years even before Christ came, which is why the current high priest could enter in Christ's day and did not suffer the fate of the many those who entered in the days God's presence was there) mary would have been put to death, Only the High Priest was allowed to enter. and only after he completed some rituals, or else he would have been put to death immediately (which did happen a few times) Thats why they had to tie a rope to him before he entered, in case they had to pull him out. No one else could enter. [/quote]

but what if she did enter have you thought about that

 

[quickfire]

The ark of the covenant represented christ. Not mary. mary certainly is not the new ark.

how can you not see it the ark held the ten commandments.

mary held the most holy one in her womb

 

[Geometar]

No. If God was actually in the inner sanctum (which he had not been for hundreds of years even before Christ came, which is why the current high priest could enter in Christ's day and did not suffer the fate of the many those who entered in the days God's presence was there) mary would have been put to death, Only the High Priest was allowed to enter. and only after he completed some rituals, or else he would have been put to death immediately (which did happen a few times) Thats why they had to tie a rope to him before he entered, in case they had to pull him out. No one else could enter.

but what if she did enter have you thought about that[/quote]


Indeed,she did.

 

[Geometar]

how can you not see it the ark held the ten commandments.

mary held the most holy one in her womb

U speak to him,but i am sure he won't understand it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

how can you not see it the ark held the ten commandments.

mary held the most holy one in her womb

How can you not see that the ten commandments never saved anyone. That they represent judgment, And the ark of the mercy seat covers the condemnation with which the ten commands condemn us, so that when God looks on us, he does not see the condemnation we deserve because we have broke the ten. But the blood of the atonement paid for by Christ? which is what the ark represented.

Mary held the holy one yes. But she still had to be saved. She has no ability to save or show mercy to anyone when it comes to salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

U speak to him,but i am sure he won't understand it.

I understand it quite well. It is a false interpretation of what the ark stood for. Thus I can not buy it, and neither should you.

In fact, it is you who does not understand the ark.

The mercy seat stood between the cherub and the ten commands. The mercy seat represented Christ, Not the ten commands.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

but what if she did enter have you thought about that


Indeed,she did.

No she did not. Christ tore the veil in two. because we do nto need to enter in any more. We have access to God the father through Christ. he is the new inner sanctem/. Mary did not enter the holy of holies as it was made via the mosaic covenant, if she did, she would have died. .

 

[quickfire]

No she did not. Christ tore the veil in two. because we do nto need to enter in any more. We have access to God the father through Christ. he is the new inner sanctem/. Mary did not enter the holy of holies as it was made via the mosaic covenant, if she did, she would have died. .

if she was without sin she would not have

 

[Geometar]

Quote:
Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

No she did not. Christ tore the veil in two. because we do nto need to enter in any more. We have access to God the father through Christ. he is the new inner sanctem/. Mary did not enter the holy of holies as it was made via the mosaic covenant, if she did, she would have died. .

if she was without sin she would not have .

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THE ENTRY OF THE THEOTOKOS INTO THE TEMPLE
November 21/December 4
By Fr. Panagiotes Carras

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​

The oikonomia of our salvation began with the very creation of the world. It is not by chance that the fourth Gospel does not commence with a genealogy of our Lord but takes us back to the very beginning. All things from the beginning to the end, from the alpha to the omega are part of God’s oikonomia for our salvation, God’s providential ordering of our salvation. Man was created that he may participate in the Divinity of his Creator by first participat*ingin his own perfection. We are taught by the Fathers that man was created for perfection. Adam was offered perfection but fell victim to the guile of the serpent. God's plan could not be frustrated and the Lord prepared the world for another Adam who would rescue the offspring of the first Adam.

St. Paul tells us that Adam is a type of the future Adam (Romans 5: 14). All Christians are des*cendants of both the first Adam and the last Adam. From the first we inherited death, from the last we inherited life. (1 Corinthians 15: 45-50). It is this Apostolic teaching of the two Adams which was developed by the Fathers and formed the nucleus of the Church's teaching on the salvation of mankind.

Mankind, which had its beginning in the first Adam, had to be given a new beginning. A new Adam was needed to become the Head of the New Humanity, the Head of the body, the Church, which is His body (Ephesians 1:22-23). However, just as in the creation of the Old Humanity, mankind was given the freedom to choose sonship; similarly in the creation of the New Humanity, mankind was granted the opportunity to choose. The first Adam was from the earth, a man of dust, the second is from Heaven (1 Corinthians 15: 47). The first could choose sin because he was not yet perfect, the second Adam, our Lord Jesus Christ, being God by nature, was totally alien to sin. It is because God's oikonomia required a member of the human race who was able to prove himself free from every sin that the time had fully come (Galatians 4:4) for God to send forth His Son, since mankind was able to bring forth the All-Holy Virgin.

This is precisely why Theotokos is the key-word of the Christological teaching of the fourth Ecumen*ical Council or as St. John of Damascus says, This name contains the whole mystery of the Oikonomia (On the Orthodox Faith, 3, 12). It is for this reason that the traditional Orthodox icon of the Mother of God is an icon of the Incarnation, the Virgin is always with the Child.

The Church's teaching of the Theotokos is an ex*tension of what is believed concerning the person of Christ. The Son of God was born of a woman and in this case the Mother is not just a mere physical instrument but an active participant who has found favour with God (Luke 1, 30). The faith of the Church is aptly expressed in the words of Nicholas Cabasilas in hisHomily on the Annunciation: The incarnation was not only the work of the Father and of His Power and His Spirit, it was also the work of the will and the faith of the Virgin (On the Annunciation, 4).

It is the teaching of the Church, attested to from the earliest date, that the Virgin Mother of the In*carnate Lord had found favour with God (Luke 1:30) and that she was chosen and ordained to particip*ate in the Mystery of the Incarnation, in the Oikonomia of Salvation. The ancient Church understood the typo*logical relationship between the first Adam and the last Adam, and by extension it was able to see that the first Eve prefigured the second Eve. We find that as early as the Second Century St. Justin and St. Irenaeus had a developed teaching of the Theotokos as the second Eve who through her obedience re*medied the disobedience of the first Eve. And so the knot of Eve's disobedience received its unloosing through the obedience of Mary; for what Eve, a virgin, bound by unbelief, that, Mary, a Virgin, unloosed by faith (Against Heresies, III, 22, 4.) Mary... by yield*ing obedience, became the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. (Against Heresies, III, 22, 4). Mary alone cooperating with the economy (Against Heresies, III, 21, 7).

The Church has proclaimed this great Mystery of our salvation not only through the teaching of the Fathers but also through the festal celebration of the acts which worked our salvation, chief of which is the Holy Resurrection of our Lord. On the 21st of Novem*ber the Church celebrates the Feast of the Entry of the Theotokos into the Temple. It is at this time that the faithful chant Today is the prelude of God’s Good-Will and the heralding of the salvation of mankind. (Dismissal Hymn).

Throughout the whole service the hymns proclaim the exalted place which the Entry has in the history of Salvation. The Entry marks the closing of the Old Covenant, whereas the Annunciation marks the beginn*ing of the New. With the Entry the most Holy Virgin is passing from the Old Covenant to the New, and this transition in the person of the Mother of God shows us how the New Covenant is the fulfillment of the Old.

Like other human beings the Holy Virgin was born under the law of original sin but the sinful heritage of the fall had no mastery over her. She was without sin under the universal sovereignty of sin, pure from every seduction and yet part of a humanity enslaved by the devil. This is the victory which the Feast of the Entry joyfully celebrates. St. Photius praises the Holy Virgin as the great and God-carved ornament of human kind" who " made her whole soul a holy shrine of meekness... never allowing any of her wares as much as to touch for a moment the brine of evil. (On the Annunciation, 4). This theme con*stantly appears in the hymns of the Feast of the Entry. Thy Miracle, 0 Pure Theotokos, transcends the power of words; for I comprehend that thine is a body transcending description, not receptive to the flow of sin. (Third Magnification of the ninth Ode). Ni*cholas Cabasilas expanded this teaching and dealt with it extensively in hisHomily on the Birth of the Theo*tokos where we read: The Virgin remained from the beginning to the end free from every evil because of her vigilant attention, firm will, and magnitude of wisdom. (Chapter 15).

The sinlessness and purity of the Theotokos along with the fact that the Lord was preparing Her to be*come His chamber overshadowed the sanctity of the Old Testament temple. The All-Pure Virgin is allowed to enter the Holy of Holies precisely because she is to become the living temple of God. St. Tarasios in his Homily of the Entry has Saint Anne exclaiming: Re*ceive Zacharias, the pure tabernacle; receive 0 priest, the immaculate chamber of the Word ... have her dwell in the temple made by hands, she who has be*come a living temple of the Word (Migne, 98:1489). Zacharias in turn speaks to the Virgin, You are the loosing of the curse of Adam, you are the payment of the debt of Eve and he continues to recall all the types and prophecies of the Old Testament which refer to the Theotokos. (Migne, 98:1492-93).

In theMinea of St. Dimitry of Rostov we read, Thus with the honor and glory not only of men, but also of angels, the most Immaculate Maiden was led into the temple of the Lord. And it was meet: for if the ark of the Old Testament, bearing manna in itself, which served only as a prototype of the Most Holy Virgin, was carried into the temple with great honor, with the assembling of all Israel, then with how much greater honor, with the assembling of angels and men, had to take place the entry into the temple of that same living ark, which had manna — Christ — in it, the Most Blessed Virgin, fore-ordained to be the Mother of God.

The Feast of the Entry celebrates the sanctity of the All-Holy Virgin and glorifies the Lord who placed her in the inaccessible Holies like some treasure of God's, to be used in due time (even as came to pass) for the enrichment of, and as an ornament transcend*ing, as well as common to, all the world. (St. Gregory Palamas, Homily on the Entry, IX).

Teachings From the Service of the Feast
​

In the Orthodox Church services we participate in the saving events of the Oikonomia of Salvation. This is why, during these services we hear the word Today quite often. This is why in the first Sticheron of the Lord I have Cried begins, Come let us faithful dance for joy on this day. The second Sticheron begins with In the temple of the Law today is the living temple. During Vespers, Matins and the Divine Liturgy we enter into the Mystery of the Entry of the Theotokos. When we enter into the Mystery we are not simple witnesses as the maidens who accompanied theTheotokos but rather participants in the eternal mystery.

The first two Old Testament readings of Vespers speak of the Divine establishment of the Tabernacle and the Temple (Exodus 40:1-5, 9-10, 34-35 and IIIKings 8:1, 3-4, 6-7, 9, 10-11). The third reading, taken from the Prophecy to Prophet Ezekiel ( Ezekiel 43:27-44:4) speaks of the Theotokos as the living Temple of God.

During the Divine Liturgy, in the reading of the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Hebrews (9:1-7), we are taught that all things which were done in the Temple of the Old Testament were a Prophecy of what would be fulfilled by our Saviour. In the Gospel of Saint Luke (10:38-42, 11:27-28), which is read at every Feast of the Mother of God, we hear: Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. We are reminded to glorify our Lord and bless His mother, who brought us our salvation.

 

[Geometar]

if she was without sin she would not have

Mary was a human,not supernatural.She had sins also as we have.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The ark. and the sin offering.

Lev 16:
11 “And Aaron shall bring the bull of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house, and shall kill the bull as the sin offering which is for himself. 12 Then he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from the altar before the Lord, with his hands full of sweet incense beaten fine, and bring it inside the veil. 13 And he shall put the incense on the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the Testimony, lest he die. 14 He shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the mercy seat on the east side; and before the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times.
15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel. 18 And he shall go out to the altar that is before the Lord, and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar all around. 19 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, cleanse it, and consecrate it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.


The blood placed on the mercy seat represents the blood of Christ. which made atonement for the sin of the people.


the commands inside the ark represents judgment., Because it proves that all men have sinned.


The mist above the ark represented God. When he looked upon the ark. He did not see the law (which condemns) but he saw the blood, which covered the sin of the people.


Christ is the mercy seat, and the blood is his. When God looks on us, he does not see the condemnation we are due, because we have failed to live up to the law. But he sees the blood of his son, which covers our sin,. thus God can shew mercy (thus the meaning of the term mercy seat) and save us, thus we have passed from condemnation to life.


Arron (and every high priest) had to enter the holy of holies once a year to make atonement for the people. Christ took this away, having once died., that all can be saved.


To say the ark represents mary is so far off base, and only comes from a misunderstanding of what the ark stood for and represented.



why mary could not have entered the holy of holies??



Now the Lord spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered profane fire before the Lord, and died; 2 and the Lord said to Moses: “Tell Aaron your brother not to come at just any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, lest he die; for I will appear in the cloud above the mercy seat.


1. Mary was not high priest
2. She would have had to make atonement for herself before she entered. As instructed to Arron and every high priest after him, or they would have died.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Quote:
Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

No she did not. Christ tore the veil in two. because we do nto need to enter in any more. We have access to God the father through Christ. he is the new inner sanctem/. Mary did not enter the holy of holies as it was made via the mosaic covenant, if she did, she would have died. .

if she was without sin she would not have

Mary was not without sin, if she was, God lied. For God says in his scripture ONLY Christ was without sin. If Christ was not the only one without sin, then God lied. and we might as well throw the whole bible out. because if there is one lie, then nothing in the word can be trusted as truth. And God himself is a sinner .