Mary the mother of my Lord (Heresy?)

[RickShafer]

Listen guys, of course Mary was a type of the Ark.
That goes without saying.
God does His work, and it is a perfect work.
But the symbolism ends when the redeeming begins.
Mary redeemed no man.
So to assign her with the title "queen of heaven' is presumptuous.
Mary (the mother of Jesus), was a chaste, highly favored woman.....but she was not divine.
I love her. I love everyone who serves the Lord. It is easy to love righteous people.
Bu I don't pray to her, because she is as we, in need of a savior,(Jesus Christ).
I only pray to Him, I only pray to the Father through Him. He is my Lord, and He is my savior.
Mary's death didn't save me, Jesus' perfect life and sacrificial death did.
I serve Him.
I worship Him.

 

[Geometar]

Listen guys, of course Mary was a type of the Ark.
That goes without saying.
God does His work, and it is a perfect work.
But the symbolism ends when the redeeming begins.
Mary redeemed no man.
So to assign her with the title "queen of heaven' is presumptuous.
Mary (the mother of Jesus), was a chaste, highly favored woman.....but she was not divine.
I love her. I love everyone who serves the Lord. It is easy to love righteous people.
Bu I don't pray to her, because she is as we, in need of a savior,(Jesus Christ).
I only pray to Him, I only pray to the Father through Him. He is my Lord, and He is my savior.
Mary's death didn't save me, Jesus' perfect life and sacrificial death did.
I serve Him.
I worship Him.

Rick,i can guarantee that Orthodox Church never,for 2000years never said that Theotokos redeemed no one's sin,nor she is able to do that.That would be big nonsense!
But what Orthodox holding from beginning and shall holding until end of time,is that she can save me,u or anyone alse if GOD accept her prayers and forgive u some sins,healt u or give any bless.
That is what we believe,hold and what is confirmed by Church experience and Holy Fathers,and also the faithful people.

 

[Rock022]

Listen guys, of course Mary was a type of the Ark.
That goes without saying.
God does His work, and it is a perfect work.
But the symbolism ends when the redeeming begins.
Mary redeemed no man.
So to assign her with the title "queen of heaven' is presumptuous.
Mary (the mother of Jesus), was a chaste, highly favored woman.....but she was not divine.
I love her. I love everyone who serves the Lord. It is easy to love righteous people.
Bu I don't pray to her, because she is as we, in need of a savior,(Jesus Christ).
I only pray to Him, I only pray to the Father through Him. He is my Lord, and He is my savior.
Mary's death didn't save me, Jesus' perfect life and sacrificial death did.
I serve Him.
I worship Him.

Rick the division we have is about the meaning of Prayer. To pray os to ask, by using the word prayer we understand that it is not to ask you or me, it is to ask those in heaven. Prayer is not worship, worship is to make above all. We worship God because He is above all, but we pray [ask] to those in heaven to keep us in prayer. When we ask them to intercede for us it is clear we are asking them to pray for us. To love God is what it is all about.

As a catholic I believe Mary has more power in Her prayer as we are taught in the wedding at Cana, Jesus did as She asked Him. So when we ask her to intercede for us we are asking her to talk to Jesus just like she did at the wedding.

If a catholic or any other person has made the blessed virgin Mary a God or they worship Her, they are wrong. But to prove this you must clearly know their intentions, do not judge a person for what you think they are doing, you are not God. Only God knows if they worship or pray for one to another. We are a community of christians and we are told to pray for one to another. Are we not christians when we get to heaven?

In heaven we have angels and we have saints. once in heaven we become saints.

 

[mark54]

Rick the division we have is about the meaning of Prayer. To pray os to ask, by using the word prayer we understand that it is not to ask you or me, it is to ask those in heaven. Prayer is not worship, worship is to make above all. We worship God because He is above all, but we pray [ask] to those in heaven to keep us in prayer. When we ask them to intercede for us it is clear we are asking them to pray for us. To love God is what it is all about.

As a catholic I believe Mary has more power in Her prayer as we are taught in the wedding at Cana, Jesus did as She asked Him. So when we ask her to intercede for us we are asking her to talk to Jesus just like she did at the wedding.

If a catholic or any other person has made the blessed virgin Mary a God or they worship Her, they are wrong. But to prove this you must clearly know their intentions, do not judge a person for what you think they are doing, you are not God. Only God knows if they worship or pray for one to another. We are a community of christians and we are told to pray for one to another. Are we not christians when we get to heaven?

In heaven we have angels and we have saints. once in heaven we become saints.

Hi
Can I ask why you believe Mary, or any other human who has lived, now, at this time dwells with God in Heaven?

 

[RickShafer]

Rick,i can guarantee that Orthodox Church never,for 2000years never said that Theotokos redeemed no one's sin,nor she is able to do that.That would be big nonsense!
But what Orthodox holding from beginning and shall holding until end of time,is that she can save me,u or anyone alse if GOD accept her prayers and forgive u some sins,healt u or give any bless.
That is what we believe,hold and what is confirmed by Church experience and Holy Fathers,and also the faithful people.

Why not go straight to Jesus?
Do you really think praying to saints will help you?
Geo., it just isn't in the Bible.
You keep referring to your church's traditions.
What did Jesus say about holding to traditions?
He(Jesus) is the life and light of mankind.
Not Mary, not John, not Peter(though I love all of them).
The answer to spiritual warfare against the adversary(Lucifer) is Jesus Christ.
Pray to Jesus. He is not too busy.
Just go straight to the source my friend.
When the angels sang to the shepherds heralding Jesus' birth, who did they sing about?
Was it Jesus or Mary? Was it John the Baptist? Was it the second coming of Elijah?
No. ------ It was Jesus.
What did God, the Father say when Jesus told John the Baptist to "suffer it to be so", because John the Baptist thought it not worthy to baptize his savior? God the Father said - "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased, for He does always My will."
This IS the man. This is Jesus - As John the Baptist said, "This is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world!". God said in another passage - "Hear ye Him".
It is He who I pray to.
It is Him that all true Christians on this side of the globe pray to.

 

[Rock022]

Luke 23:42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into[k] your kingdom.” 43 He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

A short answer:
God is the beginning and the end, so He is the past and the future. He exists in eternity. We might live a life with time, but God lives in a different timeframe. It is one of the many mysteries of God.

 

[Rock022]

Why not go straight to Jesus?
Do you really think praying to saints will help you?
Geo., it just isn't in the Bible.
You keep referring to your church's traditions.
What did Jesus say about holding to traditions?
He(Jesus) is the life and light of mankind.
Not Mary, not John, not Peter(though I love all of them).
The answer to spiritual warfare against the adversary(Lucifer) is Jesus Christ.
Pray to Jesus. He is not too busy.
Just go straight to the source my friend.
When the angels sang to the shepherds heralding Jesus' birth, who did they sing about?
Was it Jesus or Mary? Was it John the Baptist? Was it the second coming of Elijah?
No. ------ It was Jesus.
What did God, the Father say when Jesus told John the Baptist to "suffer it to be so", because John the Baptist thought it not worthy to baptize his savior? God the Father said - "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased, for He does always My will."
This IS the man. This is Jesus - As John the Baptist said, "This is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world!". God said in another passage - "Hear ye Him".
It is He who I pray to.
It is Him that all true Christians on this side of the globe pray to.

One of the books taken out of the KJV not by the reformers but someone else about 124 years ago Maccabees

2 Maccabees 12:44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.

 

[mark54]

Luke 23:42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into[k] your kingdom.” 43 He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

A short answer:
God is the beginning and the end, so He is the past and the future. He exists in eternity. We might live a life with time, but God lives in a different timeframe. It is one of the many mysteries of God.

Yes, Christ told the thief on the cross he would be with him in Paradise, not Heaven. Christ did not return to Heaven when he died on the cross:

Jesus said., 'Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father
John20:17

Also

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish, so the son of man will be three days and three mnights, in the heart of the earth
Matt12:40

 

[Geometar]

Why not go straight to Jesus?
Do you really think praying to saints will help you?
Geo., it just isn't in the Bible.
You keep referring to your church's traditions.
What did Jesus say about holding to traditions?
He(Jesus) is the life and light of mankind.
Not Mary, not John, not Peter(though I love all of them).
The answer to spiritual warfare against the adversary(Lucifer) is Jesus Christ.
Pray to Jesus. He is not too busy.
Just go straight to the source my friend.
When the angels sang to the shepherds heralding Jesus' birth, who did they sing about?
Was it Jesus or Mary? Was it John the Baptist? Was it the second coming of Elijah?
No. ------ It was Jesus.
What did God, the Father say when Jesus told John the Baptist to "suffer it to be so", because John the Baptist thought it not worthy to baptize his savior? God the Father said - "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased, for He does always My will."
This IS the man. This is Jesus - As John the Baptist said, "This is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world!". God said in another passage - "Hear ye Him".
It is He who I pray to.
It is Him that all true Christians on this side of the globe pray to.

Of course that we pray to Jesus as to God,we all do that.Alive in visible and departed at invisible Church.
To Saints we pray by asking to pray for as,as we also pray for them,of course to Jesus Christ as only redeemer.

 

[RickShafer]

Of course that we pray to Jesus as to God,we all do that.Alive in visible and departed at invisible Church.
To Saints we pray by asking to pray for as,as we also pray for them,of course to Jesus Christ as only redeemer.

O.K.
Whatever works for you.
Just don't venerate the saints and we will be on the same page.
(Geo., they don't like you doing that.)
They don't like you praying to them.
The author and finisher of their faith is Jesus Christ, just the same as you.
By doing so you are not only bothering them, but in danger of idolizing them.
I just have to tell you, that you are in danger of idol worship when you venerate the saints.
I didn't say it, God did. - "I will have no other Gods before Me". - First Commandment.

 

[Geometar]

Rick,u have to understand something.East and West were for almost 1000years without any touch.It is a big question for Luther,that is what i personally believe,what would he do that he somehow could know what East says and how East worship.
U wouldn't exist that East and West stayed together in TRUTH.

 

[RickShafer]

Rick,u have to understand something.East and West were for almost 1000years without any touch.It is a big question for Luther,that is what i personally believe,what would he do that he somehow could know what East says and how East worship.
U wouldn't exist that East and West stayed together in TRUTH.

Luther did what was needed.
He cleaned out the spiritual rats from the overly liturgical and ritualized church.
Bishops were selling indulgences!
Do you know what indulgences are?
I would exist because God made me, and further more I know who my God is.
Therefore I know who saves me.
Geo., do you know God has saved my life three times from certain death?
Jesus saves to the utmost, I know because I know Him, and better, He knows me, and saves me.
We have songs that we sing over here in the west....we tend to make them up as we sing to God
in our everyday chores.
One is called "Jesus Saves"
Here are the words:

We have heard the joyful sound: Jesus saves! Jesus saves!
Spread the tidings all around: Jesus saves! Jesus saves!
Bear the news to every land, climb the mountains, cross the waves;
Onward! ’tis our Lord’s command; Jesus saves! Jesus saves!
Waft it on the rolling tide: Jesus saves! Jesus saves!
Tell to sinners far and wide: Jesus saves! Jesus saves!
Sing, you islands of the sea; echo back, you ocean caves;
Earth shall keep her jubilee: Jesus saves! Jesus saves!
Sing above the battle strife: Jesus saves! Jesus saves!
By His death and endless life Jesus saves! Jesus saves!
Shout it brightly through the gloom, when the heart for mercy craves;
Sing in triumph o’er the tomb: Jesus saves! Jesus saves!
Give the winds a mighty voice: Jesus saves! Jesus saves!
Let the nations now rejoice: Jesus saves! Jesus saves!
Shout salvation full and free; highest hills and deepest caves;
This our song of victory: Jesus saves! Jesus saves!


Those are the types of songs we sing over here. (I'm proud to be of the number that sings them)

 

[Geometar]

I really don't know what are indulgences.
What do u think,how big was reason when East had to decide from West?
This topic isn't for this thread.

 

[Rock022]

O.K.
Whatever works for you.
Just don't venerate the saints and we will be on the same page.
(Geo., they don't like you doing that.)
They don't like you praying to them.
The author and finisher of their faith is Jesus Christ, just the same as you.
By doing so you are not only bothering them, but in danger of idolizing them.
I just have to tell you, that you are in danger of idol worship when you venerate the saints.
I didn't say it, God did. - "I will have no other Gods before Me". - First Commandment.

We have always been in the same page, you just refuse to believe us. That is all. We have not made any other Gods, you did. We believe in the communion of saints, that includes the blessed virgin Mary. We are with a cloud of witness.

The Confiteor

I confess to Almighty God,
and to your my brothers
and sisters,
that I have sinned
through my own fault,
in my thoughts
and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary,
ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me
to the Lord our God.

Amen.

We constantly show you what is the truth, but you chose to believe those who ridicule us. You have hardened your heart and can not see the beauty we are trying to show you. God is beautiful and He wants us all to share in His glory and love. This is not the believe of an individual interpretation but a love that unites. A love so strong it can raise you from the dead, because that love is God.

When you see a flower, it does not envy that you are taller, or that you can move. The flower remains, radiating the beauty God has given it. It remains in peace, God provides her with what is needed. When her time has come, the flower does not trouble, because it is the will of God that has ended her short life.

We too are like flowers, planted on fertile ground. If we move, we might end up on dry soil and we would not produce any fruit.

What I am trying to say is that it is all about love, not individualism.

 

[RickShafer]

Yea, your right Rock, because if there is one thing Jesus likes , it's uniformity.
I mean....look at all His miracles. Whenever it was described how He did them it was always the
EXACT SAME WAY!
Look it up between your traditional robed swathed liturgies, and emblems of artistic symbols, you might find different.
But no, you wouldn't do that! Why upset some religious symbols for actual life?
Why? Keep confessing to a person who you call father, even though Jesus Himself said to call no man father.
Carry on Rock.......by all means, the truth is in the symbols.
Robes of outward righteousness worn by the religious leaders were never disdained by Jesus, ...nope, ....not at all.

 

[Rock022]

Where you see symbols we see love. Would you go to church in a tank top shirt flip flops and shorts? At least I would not, not because of the people but because of respect to our Lord.

Call no man Father:

"So it was not you who sent me here, but God; and he has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt" (Gen. 45:8).
"I was a father to the poor, and I searched out the cause of him whom I did not know" (Job 29:16)

"On that day I will call my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah, and will clothe him with your robe and bind your sash on him. I will commit your authority to his hand, and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah." (Is. 22:20–21).

"Elisha kept watching and crying out, “Father, father! The chariots of Israel and its horsemen!” But when he could no longer see him, he grasped his own clothes and tore them in two pieces." (2 Kings 2:12)

"When the king of Israel saw them he said to Elisha, “Father, shall I kill them? Shall I kill them?” (2 Kings 6:21)

"And Stephen replied:

“Brothers[a] and fathers, listen to me. The God of glory appeared to our ancestor Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran" (Acts 7:2)

If calling a man Father is so bad why do I get this search results?
Keyword Search results: father
Results 1-25 of 1087
Link ---> BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: father

So if the bible never contradicts itself, could it be that you do not understand what Jesus was talking about? or is the bible wrong 1,087 times for mentioning the word Father?

You complain about the robes! Where does it say you must wear suit and tie?
If you have read the bible which I am sure you have, you know that wearing robes is biblical. Or do you believe Jesus came to remove the vestments of His people? If this is the truth were is it written that Priest should not wear robes?

How many symbols and ceremonial rites are in the Old Testament? You think that the whole purpose of Jesus death and resurrection was to abolish what God had shown to us in the past because it was pleasing to Him? Where is this written?

Jesus told His disciples that they could forgive sins, do you believe you can talk to anyone and your sins are forgiven? Or must you talk with the apostles who Jesus breath in to them, and they passed on to others.

You are still missing the point, everything we do has been pleasing to the Lord our God since the beginning. There is no need for sacrificial lambs because Jesus did the ultimate sacrifice.

Do you really believe that in 2000 years the church started by Jesus handed down to the apostles who handed down to their disciples and so on, has been lost because of mans free will?

What is the difference between all the false prophets in the past and the "Reformers". A name, they all have tried to get people away from the church. All of them. The ones who have fought against the evil that wanted to destroy the church became saints and they did not make different denominations.

Jesus said, this is My body. Whoever eats of it will live. Who came up with, nope that is not His body? Who went against His word? I do not know who did but it was not me.

Every single doubt you have can be answered. Not by me of course. I can provide the basics. What I can testify to is my Faith. The faith that believes Jesus began His church and He will always be with it. He never said once false prophets come I will find a way to remain with My church did He. This is what I can testify to. The assurance that the beauty of our Lord Jesus Christ can be fully taken in the church.

 

[RickShafer]

Well Rock, Jesus didn't say to call NO man father, as in no fathers.
He meant not to bow to another person.
As in differ to another man as your spiritual headship.
You can see the problem that such reverence to flesh has caused.
Both in the protestant movement, and with catholic priests.
He washed the disciples feet. So he said those that would be greatest among you will serve.
(See how the difference is?) Quite striking I'd say, from both the catholic and the protestant perspective.
Your post is long so I will answer the issues separately.

 

[quickfire]

Sorry to post this as it is quite shocking news about the catholics but this is Why protestent was formed
More or less s.

By 500 AD the Bible had been translated into over 500 languages. Just one century later, by 600 AD, it has been restricted to only one language: the Latin Vulgate! The only organized and recognized church at that time in history was the Catholic Church of Rome, and they refused to allow the scripture to be available in any language other than Latin. Those in possession of non-Latin scriptures would be executed! This was because only the priests were educated to understand Latin, and this gave the church ultimate power… a power to rule without question… a power to deceive… a power to extort money from the masses. Nobody could question their “Biblical” teachings, because few people other than priests could read Latin. The church capitalized on this forced-ignorance through the 1,000 year period from 400 AD to 1,400 AD knows as the “Dark and Middle

Pope Leo the Tenth established a practice called the “selling of indulgences” as a way to extort money from the people. He offered forgiveness of sins for a fairly small amount of money. For a little bit more money, you would be allowed to indulge in a continuous lifestyle of sin, such as keeping a mistress. Also, through the invention of “Purgatory”, you could purchase the salvation of your loved-one’s souls. The church taught the ignorant masses, “As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the troubled soul from Purgatory springs!” Pope Leo the Tenth showed his true feelings when he said, “The fable of Christ has been quite profitable to us!”

Editorial Note: Let us state at this point, that it is not our intent to offend or “bash” Roman Catholics. It is unavoidable that every historical account has its “good guys” and its “bad guys”. Just as it is impossible to accurately tell the story of World War Two without offending the Germans and the Italians who were undeniably the enemies of world peace at that time… it is equally impossible to accurately tell the story of the English Bible without unintentionally offending those who continue to revere the Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches.

 

[Rock022]

Well Rock, Jesus didn't say to call NO man father, as in no fathers.
He meant not to bow to another person.
As in differ to another man as your spiritual headship.
You can see the problem that such reverence to flesh has caused.
Both in the protestant movement, and with catholic priests.
He washed the disciples feet. So he said those that would be greatest among you will serve.
(See how the difference is?) Quite striking I'd say, from both the catholic and the protestant perspective.
Your post is long so I will answer the issues separately.

Oh, so call no man father is not to bow. When people in the orient bow to each other, are they worshiping each other? When an actor bows to the crowd does he/she worship the whole crowd?

Is it the act or the intent?

 

[Rock022]

Sorry to post this as it is quite shocking news about the catholics but this is Why protestent was formed
More or less s.

By 500 AD the Bible had been translated into over 500 languages. Just one century later, by 600 AD, it has been restricted to only one language: the Latin Vulgate! The only organized and recognized church at that time in history was the Catholic Church of Rome, and they refused to allow the scripture to be available in any language other than Latin. Those in possession of non-Latin scriptures would be executed! This was because only the priests were educated to understand Latin, and this gave the church ultimate power… a power to rule without question… a power to deceive… a power to extort money from the masses. Nobody could question their “Biblical” teachings, because few people other than priests could read Latin. The church capitalized on this forced-ignorance through the 1,000 year period from 400 AD to 1,400 AD knows as the “Dark and Middle

Pope Leo the Tenth established a practice called the “selling of indulgences” as a way to extort money from the people. He offered forgiveness of sins for a fairly small amount of money. For a little bit more money, you would be allowed to indulge in a continuous lifestyle of sin, such as keeping a mistress. Also, through the invention of “Purgatory”, you could purchase the salvation of your loved-one’s souls. The church taught the ignorant masses, “As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the troubled soul from Purgatory springs!” Pope Leo the Tenth showed his true feelings when he said, “The fable of Christ has been quite profitable to us!”

Editorial Note: Let us state at this point, that it is not our intent to offend or “bash” Roman Catholics. It is unavoidable that every historical account has its “good guys” and its “bad guys”. Just as it is impossible to accurately tell the story of World War Two without offending the Germans and the Italians who were undeniably the enemies of world peace at that time… it is equally impossible to accurately tell the story of the English Bible without unintentionally offending those who continue to revere the Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches.

Indeed you know the story of one side. You have posted this in another post, I will answer when I can. We have had some bad popes, there is no denying it. I have even heard we had 3 popes at one time. But the latin use had nothing to do with coverup because Latin was a common language back then just like english is today. I will answer this on the other post. As I am clarifying the false beliefs against the church.