Mary the mother of my Lord (Heresy?)
- Thread starter Rock022
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Q
oh come on lighten up i am just trying to show why are churches are so divided.
my church of england is officially a chistian church but we are also known as Anglo-Catholic
quite confusing ??
we are sought of know as half protestant half catholic and this is very confusing to me.
we are a reformed church but we was once under the rule of the pope.
Our church was under the authority of the Pope until we seperated from the roman catholic church in 1534 because henry the eight fell out with the pope over a dispute over the annulment of the marriage over king henry VIII to Catherine of Aragon
so our church was officially established as the church of england in 1534.
but where also still connected to its ancient Catholic heritage. The Anglican Church Celebrates the sacraments, and most importantly the Holy Eucharist.
but we do not pray to mary or to the dead but we still respect them beliefs confusing eh ?
Purgatory
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[f] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
Matthew 5:25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court[k] with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[f] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
Matthew 5:25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court[k] with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.
Question of Purgatory is question of purifying fire.I can say for 100% that in Bible u wont find no where purifying fire,which will by suffering of siner,it clean his sins.On the other side,we know that hell suffering didnt started yet,because we still waithing for ressurection of the dead and judgement,and then we all shall be split on left and right side.
How ever,Orthodox believe that by prayes and mentioning at Divine Liturgy,soul can obtain remission of sins,but not all,as it Bible confirm.Matthew 12:32
As we can see in Matthew 5:25 no where isn't mentioned purification fire,but prison,which is Had and which is expectation of final judgement.
And also in 1Corinthians 3:13-15 we can see that this fire isn't purifiying but inquiring.Because that fire will inquiring deeds and good deeds will be shown more brighter and bad will burn.And what salvation is here mentioned?It is salvation worst then death.Because suffereing is hell is yet to come.
This is simply explanation,by my word.Saint Mark of Ephesus gave it much more meaningful and incomparably better.
How did the veneration of the physical mother of the Son reach "purgatory"?
What does a religious custom such as worshiping Mary have to do with 'purging' in the afterlife?
Two equally false pretenses.
Thanks 'Rock' and 'Geo.'; you two are well endowed indeed with extra biblical religion.
Notice the images that surround you?
(Will you notice how you worship idols?)
What does a religious custom such as worshiping Mary have to do with 'purging' in the afterlife?
Two equally false pretenses.
Thanks 'Rock' and 'Geo.'; you two are well endowed indeed with extra biblical religion.
Notice the images that surround you?
(Will you notice how you worship idols?)
Geometar, I'm not attempting humor.
Jesus was fully God and fully human.
Do you agree?
His Father was the full God part, and His mother was the fully human part.
This is commonly understood.
Do you not see how deifying His mother makes Jesus less of a man?
And therefore belittles His ultimate sacrifice?
Jesus was all God and all man!
And making Mary-(his physical mother), a deity be smirches His sacrifice!
Cannot you,....even you see that!
Don't deify Mary to the hurt of what Jesus the Christ did, or to the renunciation of His gospel!
God don't play that!!
Jesus was fully God and fully human.
Do you agree?
His Father was the full God part, and His mother was the fully human part.
This is commonly understood.
Do you not see how deifying His mother makes Jesus less of a man?
And therefore belittles His ultimate sacrifice?
Jesus was all God and all man!
And making Mary-(his physical mother), a deity be smirches His sacrifice!
Cannot you,....even you see that!
Don't deify Mary to the hurt of what Jesus the Christ did, or to the renunciation of His gospel!
God don't play that!!
Last edited:
Rick if you had gone a few posts back you would understand why the talk of purgatory. I has nothing to do with the Blessed Virgin Mary, it has to do with a conversation.
To say that the blessed virgin Mary takes away from Jesus is to say the Moon takes away from the Sun. It doesn't it only reflects the light from the Sun.
Geo here is another scripture, protestants that have a bible printed after the 1900's do not have Maccabees
2 Maccabees 12
45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.
To say that the blessed virgin Mary takes away from Jesus is to say the Moon takes away from the Sun. It doesn't it only reflects the light from the Sun.
Geo here is another scripture, protestants that have a bible printed after the 1900's do not have Maccabees
2 Maccabees 12
45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.
Leave Rick,even that he want,he cannot understand what we are talking about here.To many times he spent in researching of conspiracy.
Rock,which ever verse u post here,no where u will see any purification fire.In Purgatory u have fire which torture soul and by that torture souls relese sins.Purgatory question is question of fire and i do not see it.
I believe u understood me.Orthodox do not denie that soul can relese sins and i cannot explain u that here.For that u can back couple posts up and read Saint Mark of Ephesus response on Purgatory.
If anyone want to know why Orthodox pray for departed let read this:
Saint Luke Orthodox Church - Ministries - Community
Last edited:
I'm sorry Geometar, but when one ascribes the monarchical title - "Queen of Heaven" on "Theotokos", I think that might be deifying her.
.......I could be wrong........(but I know I'm not).
Tell me Geometar; is not ascribing to her the title "Queen of Heaven" not deifying her? - - - - - -
You tell me.......because here in the west....outside of Tsarist Russia......we take titles like 'king' and 'queen' pretty seriously.
Such as: 'Jesus - King of Heaven'; we have no problem with.
But: ' Mary - Queen of Heaven', we have a problem with.
You see, 'Queen' means monarch - female monarch; and 'Heaven' means Heaven.
So when people say someone is the "queen of heaven"; we take that as a title of regency over the universe.
- (The universe being the place where God the Father, and Jesus the Son, and The Holy Spirit only reigns)
Do you understand?
If you do understand, how are we wrong in objecting to your sect of Eastern Orthodox Christianity claiming that Mary - (the mother of Jesus), is the 'Queen of Heaven'?
.........or Theotokos.......or whatever title you want to call her?
.......I could be wrong........(but I know I'm not).
Tell me Geometar; is not ascribing to her the title "Queen of Heaven" not deifying her? - - - - - -
You tell me.......because here in the west....outside of Tsarist Russia......we take titles like 'king' and 'queen' pretty seriously.
Such as: 'Jesus - King of Heaven'; we have no problem with.
But: ' Mary - Queen of Heaven', we have a problem with.
You see, 'Queen' means monarch - female monarch; and 'Heaven' means Heaven.
So when people say someone is the "queen of heaven"; we take that as a title of regency over the universe.
- (The universe being the place where God the Father, and Jesus the Son, and The Holy Spirit only reigns)
Do you understand?
If you do understand, how are we wrong in objecting to your sect of Eastern Orthodox Christianity claiming that Mary - (the mother of Jesus), is the 'Queen of Heaven'?
.........or Theotokos.......or whatever title you want to call her?
For understand the title Queen of Heaven u must look in Bible,in Old Testament and to see who were Queens and who were Kings in Jewish history.
I will post u an response,but u must read to see it.Otherwise it will have no use.
Orthodox Apologetics: Mary According to the Bible
Queen of Heaven
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (Revelation 12:1)
Mary here is wearing a Crown of Twelve Stars. As we saw in Joseph’s dream, the stars are a symbol of Israel. Mary is wearing the Crown of Israel. However, the New Israel is the people of the Church, the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ says: Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world." (John 18:36)
The kingdom of New Israel is the kingdom of heaven. Thus, Mary is here presented as wearing the Crown of New Israel- she is the Queen of Heaven. Another important fact is that Jesus is a king after the order of David- he is a Davidic king. Who were the queens of Davidic kings? Interestingly, it was not their wives. It was their mother. Consider this passage: Say to the king and the queen mother: "Take a lowly seat, for your beautiful crown has come down from your head." (Jeremiah 13:18)
(My commentary in red)
Though it begins as a nice parallel, as equating the ark with Mary's womb; there is a problem.
See, in II Samuel 6:6-10:
6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.
7 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.
This is a major problem for your theology as Mary being a type of the Ark; because it was dangerous, even deadly- killed a man. And she was a chaste, harmless virgin. - No men were killed in the carrying of her to Bethlehem. This is a major discordance.
8 And David was displeased, because the Lord had made a breach upon Uzzah: and he called the name of the place Perezuzzah to this day.
9And David was afraid of the Lord that day, and said, How shall the ark of the Lord come to me?
10 So David would not remove the ark of the Lord unto him into the city of David: but David carried it aside into the house of Obededom the Gittite.
I will continue to read it and critique it as it needs.....(God be with you Geo.)
Though it begins as a nice parallel, as equating the ark with Mary's womb; there is a problem.
See, in II Samuel 6:6-10:
6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.
7 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.
This is a major problem for your theology as Mary being a type of the Ark; because it was dangerous, even deadly- killed a man. And she was a chaste, harmless virgin. - No men were killed in the carrying of her to Bethlehem. This is a major discordance.
8 And David was displeased, because the Lord had made a breach upon Uzzah: and he called the name of the place Perezuzzah to this day.
9And David was afraid of the Lord that day, and said, How shall the ark of the Lord come to me?
10 So David would not remove the ark of the Lord unto him into the city of David: but David carried it aside into the house of Obededom the Gittite.
I will continue to read it and critique it as it needs.....(God be with you Geo.)
Rick,if i understood u well u asking why Theotokos womb haven't killed her or anyone near her?
Rick,this is parable.U have well explained why she is considered to be Ark of the New Covenant.She isn't consider because she was dangerous to someone,but what she had in her womb.
Please,do not think literally,that won't take u anywhere.
The dogma is especially fitting when one examines the honor that was given to the ark of the covenant. It contained the manna (bread from heaven), stone tablets of the ten commandments (the word of God), and the staff of Aaron (a symbol of Israel’s high priesthood). Because of its contents, it was made of incorruptible wood, and Psalm 132:8 said, "Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy might." If this vessel was given such honor, how much more should Mary be kept from corruption, since she is the new ark—who carried the real bread from heaven, the Word of God, and the high priest of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.
Some argue that the new ark is not Mary, but the body of Jesus. Even if this were the case, it is worth noting that 1 Chronicles 15:14 records that the persons who bore the ark were to be sanctified. There would be no sense in sanctifying men who carried a box, and not sanctifying the womb who carried God himself! After all, wisdom will not dwell "in a body under debt of sin" (Wis. 1:4 NAB).
But there is more than just fittingness. After all, if Mary is immaculately conceived, then it would follow that she would not suffer the corruption in the grave, which is a consequence of sin [Gen. 3:17, 19].
Link ---> Immaculate Conception and Assumption | Catholic Answers
Some argue that the new ark is not Mary, but the body of Jesus. Even if this were the case, it is worth noting that 1 Chronicles 15:14 records that the persons who bore the ark were to be sanctified. There would be no sense in sanctifying men who carried a box, and not sanctifying the womb who carried God himself! After all, wisdom will not dwell "in a body under debt of sin" (Wis. 1:4 NAB).
But there is more than just fittingness. After all, if Mary is immaculately conceived, then it would follow that she would not suffer the corruption in the grave, which is a consequence of sin [Gen. 3:17, 19].
Link ---> Immaculate Conception and Assumption | Catholic Answers