Mary the mother of my Lord (Heresy?)

[quickfire]

you know with verry little written about a such an important figure in jesus life i feel upset that there should of been a lot more i can only feel that mary wanted protection more and why she felt the need to ask for a savior was maybe because of the stonings that took place in them days

i also feel that i dont think its very christian to say that that mary did not go to heaven.
one night i came in here and quite alot of people in the bible study where asking rock direct questions and rock tryed his best to answer and not once did he say anything bad or say a heresy one of things that was said was mary is dead and that mary was not in heaven ?????.
this deeply upset me because there is no way mary is dead because she is in heaven and she was the mother of our lord .
i was christend church of england i am a prosedant i have no problem with mary being the mother of our lord why do chritians in here call this a heresy i feel that rock deserves an apolagy from a quite a few members here as some of the comments directed at rock in the chat rooms have been nothing but dam right discusting behavior

 

[superdave5221]

Who is a mediator between us and God?
1)Mary
2) Dead saints
3) Jesus Christ
4) all of the above.

I say 3 Jesus Christ.
By his merits and his righteousness,in faith we can stand bold before the presence n pray,worship.

Without Christ all our good works and prayer are useless cuz its like a filthy rag before him,it offends him.

1 John 2: 1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

 

[superdave5221]

1 John 2: 1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

Let me follow up on this one.

It seems to me that Jesus IS the only one who can mediate for us. For He is the only righteous one. Anyone else would have to answer for their own guilt.

In other words, anyone else would need a mediator for themselves. You would need a mediator for the mediator.

Jesus is the only one who is righteous and the only one who has paid the price for our sins. Therefore, only Jesus can appeal to God for us.

 

[Custos_Clavium]

1 John 2: 1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

Let me follow up on this one.

It seems to me that Jesus IS the only one who can mediate for us. For He is the only righteous one. Anyone else would have to answer for their own guilt.

In other words, anyone else would need a mediator for themselves. You would need a mediator for the mediator.

Jesus is the only one who is righteous and the only one who has paid the price for our sins. Therefore, only Jesus can appeal to God for us.

Then what is the point of praying for one another?

I have had many people ask me to pray for them for various reasons. I have heard others here and in chat ask others to pray for them. Why not just tell them ''Pray to Jesus yourself, because only Jesus can appeal to God for you!''

 

[superdave5221]

Then what is the point of praying for one another?

I have had many people ask me to pray for them for various reasons. I have heard others here and in chat ask others to pray for them. Why not just tell them ''Pray to Jesus yourself, because only Jesus can appeal to God for you!''

We pray for others, and, at least most Christians I know of, we pray in the Name of Jesus Christ. And so, we all pray for others, but we do so in the Name of Jesus Christ, recognizing that only Jesus can appeal to God for us. And the person that we are praying for should also be encouraged to pray for themselves, In the Name Of Jesus Christ.

Jesus appeals to God, and God answers prayer according to His own agenda and by His own pleasure. We do not know the eternal ways of God, but we do know that prayer is often helpful in receiving blessings and grace upon ourselves and others.

The ways in which God answers prayers has nothing to do with the fact that Jesus Christ IS our mediator before God.

 

[Rock022]

We pray for others, and, at least most Christians I know of, we pray in the Name of Jesus Christ. And so, we all pray for others, but we do so in the Name of Jesus Christ, recognizing that only Jesus can appeal to God for us. And the person that we are praying for should also be encouraged to pray for themselves, In the Name Of Jesus Christ.

Jesus appeals to God, and God answers prayer according to His own agenda and by His own pleasure. We do not know the eternal ways of God, but we do know that prayer is often helpful in receiving blessings and grace upon ourselves and others.

The ways in which God answers prayers has nothing to do with the fact that Jesus Christ IS our mediator before God.

Interesting point of view! Now lets see how the Hail Mary ends:

Pray for us sinners = You, me and all
Now and at the hour of our death. = Pray with ought ceasing

That sounds to me like we are asking her to pray in the Name of Jesus Christ, recognizing that only Jesus can appeal to God for us as you state it.

 

[quickfire]

why are you all changing the subject i have not herd one single comment to say that what roch said was not a heresy and why he started this thread and some one said to rock in chat that he had commited a heresy by saying mary was the mother of our lord why do you now look for other reasons to throw stones at rock by bringing up other subjects to throw stones like picking up facts like they see mary as a mediator .

there is only one reason i can see and you want to stone him

all the catholics i know pray to god some also ask mary to pray for them and they do not pray direct to mary.

mary understood so much how it was to be protected maybe that is why she was chosen and why shouldnt she be in heaven and why shouldnt she serve a pupose to the catholics and us all.

not just mary but anyone who does good why shouldnt they go to heaven and do the work of god




this is a big massive point here and you are all forgetting does god not send messengers

does god not send angels

does god not give the keys to heaven to peter .

back in them days did many people not speak to peter and peter prayed to god for them .

do many of us here not pray for one another .

do we not speak to bishops priests and they pray for us

 

[superdave5221]

Interesting point of view! Now lets see how the Hail Mary ends:

Pray for us sinners = You, me and all
Now and at the hour of our death. = Pray with ought ceasing

That sounds to me like we are asking her to pray in the Name of Jesus Christ, recognizing that only Jesus can appeal to God for us as you state it.

The only difference is that you are not praying to the Father in the Name of Jesus Christ, but you are praying to Mary. Mary is not a divine person to be prayed to.

 

[quickfire]

how do you know what happens to people once there in heaven how do you know that there pupose in heaven was not the same as it was when they where alive on earth

 

[superdave5221]

why are you all changing the subject i have not herd one single comment to say that what roch said was not a heresy and why he started this thread and some one said to rock in chat that he had commited a heresy by saying mary was the mother of our lord why do you now look for other reasons to throw stones at rock by bringing up other subjects to throw stones like picking up facts like they see mary as a mediator .

I have a question for you.

Why did the Roman Catholics change the Ten Commandments?

According to the official Roman Catholic catechism the following are the ten commandments:

1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
3. Remember to keep the Sabbath Day.
4. Honor thy Father and thy Mother.
5. Thou shalt not kill.
6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
7. Thou shalt not steal.
8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.

According to Exodus 20 these are God's commandments:

1. am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
2. "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand [ generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.
3. "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
4. "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
5. "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
6. "You shall not murder.
7. "You shall not commit adultery.
8. "You shall not steal.
9. "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10. "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Notice that the second commandment about idolatry is removed from the official Roman Catholic Ten Commandments and the tenth commandment is split into two parts in order to retain the number ten.

Why is is this so? I am curious.

 

[quickfire]

it like saying all people just sit in heaven and twiddle there thumbs all day long does god not rest on the seventh day in this day and age do many people need prayes answering seven days a weak do you think god wants to miss an unanswered prayer

 

[jkalyna]

HERE IS WHAT EVERYONE SHOULD DO. PRAY HOW YOU WANT, IF YOU ACCEPTED JESUS AS YOUR PERSONAL SAVIOR, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL CONVICT YOU IF YOU NEED TO CHANGE. THIS IS WHERE IT STANDS, LEAVE IT TO THE HOLY LORD, AND HOLY SPIRIT. ONE THING THAT STOOD OUT TO ME IN THE GOSPEL IS THIS. WHEN JESUS WAS AT THE WEDDING AND THE WINE RAN OUT, MARY ASKED HIM TO DO A MIRACLE. WHAT DID AND HOW DID CHRIST THE LORD RESPOND.{ IF THE TRANSLATION FROM THE ORIGINAL IS CORRECT, AND IT SEEMS TO BE THE LANGUAGE OF OUR LORD, IS JESUS RESPONDED THIS WAY. { WOMEN, TO HER, HE CALLED HER WOMEN. HE DID NOT CALL HER MOTHER, BECAUSE JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE PART OF THE TRINITY, AND IT WOULD MAKE MARY THE MOTHER OF GOD. JESUS ANSWERED THE WAY HE WAS TO. WOMEN, MEANING, WOMEN OF FLESH. AND NOT OF DIVINITY. USED BY GOD AS A VESSEL BY WOMEN OF THE FLESH. ANOTHER TIME WHEN JESUS RAN OFF TO TEACH IN THE TEMPLE AS A YOUNG BOY, MARY AND JOSEPH SAID AFTER DAYS SEARCHING FOR HIM, THAT WHERE WAS HE, WHAT AND HOW DID JESUS RESPOND TO THEM BOTH. {{ HE SAID, I AM ABOUT MY FATHER'S BUSINESS.}} HE NEITHER GAVE CREDIT TO MARY AT THE WEDDING, CALLING HER WOMEN, AND NEITHER AT THE TEMPLE KIND OF IGNORING JOSEPH HIS STEP FATHER, BUT THEN PROBABLY CALLED AS THE REAL FATHER BY LAW THEN, NOT SURE. JESUS MADE IT SPECIFICALLY CLEAR, SAYING "DO NOT CALL ANY MAN FATHER ON THIS EARTH. SO, IF JESUS HIMSELF DID NOT WANT TO CALL HIS MOTHER MARY MOTHER, BUT WOMEN, HE KNEW THAT SHE IS AND SHOULD NOT BE PLACED ABOVE EVEN JESUS HIMSELF, NOR HIS FATHER GOD. YES THIS WAS THE VIRGIN BIRTH, AND THE BIBLE SAYS ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE JESUS CAME IN THE FLESH OF A VIRGIN INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT IS BLASPHEMY, SO WHAT'S THE BIG FUSS. LET EVERY MAN PRAY AND BELIEVE HOW THEY WANT, LET THE HOLY SPIIRIT BE THE JUDGE, BUT LETS NOT CONDONE, OR PUSH OTHER'S WAYS ON ANOTHER. THE WORD SAYS, "THOSE WHO ARE FOR ME ARE NOT AGAINST ME". YOUR FOR JESUS, THEN YOUR ON THE RIGHT SIDE. AMEN. CHEER UP BROTHERS. SHAKE HANDS, NOT FISTS.

 

[quickfire]

those comandment are all the same if you read them properly

 

[superdave5221]

those comandment are all the same if you read them properly

What do you mean "read them properly"?

Do you mean, Do as I say?


I see nothing about idolatry in the Roman Catholic Ten Commandments.

 

[Custos_Clavium]

I have a question for you.

Why did the Roman Catholics change the Ten Commandments?

According to the official Roman Catholic catechism the following are the ten commandments:

1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
3. Remember to keep the Sabbath Day.
4. Honor thy Father and thy Mother.
5. Thou shalt not kill.
6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
7. Thou shalt not steal.
8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.

According to Exodus 20 these are God's commandments:

1. am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
2. "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand [ generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.
3. "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
4. "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
5. "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
6. "You shall not murder.
7. "You shall not commit adultery.
8. "You shall not steal.
9. "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10. "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Notice that the second commandment about idolatry is removed from the official Roman Catholic Ten Commandments and the tenth commandment is split into two parts in order to retain the number ten.

Why is is this so? I am curious.

Catholics didn't change the 10 commandments. It says the same thing in the Bible used by Catholics. The list you used is a paraphrasing of the commandments found in Scripture.

I don't mean to be insulting to anyone here, but realistically, the idea of ''Having no other Gods before me'' implies also having no graven images of false idols...The list is merely a list, a streamlined and simplified version of Scripture...sort of like how Jesus said there were only Two commandments....we know what we said, but we know that following those two things implies many, many more things that are not spelled out word-for-word by him (and include following the 10 commandments).

If Christians spend time with the Bible as they should, they would know that the ''List'' is just a quick reference guide to the larger, more important scriptural passage.

 

[Rock022]

Fellow christians, let not your hearts be troubled. I do not wish to make enemies, but to make friends. There is no reason to continue arguing if we are to repeat what we said. Although I do not agree with some post, it is not for me to get angry about. We all have to answer to Jesus. What do you want to tell him when He asks, did you love one another?

 

[superdave5221]

Fellow christians, let not your hearts be troubled. I do not wish to make enemies, but to make friends. There is no reason to continue arguing if we are to repeat what we said. Although I do not agree with some post, it is not for me to get angry about. We all have to answer to Jesus. What do you want to tell him when He asks, did you love one another?

Yes, we will answer to Jesus. But we will also have to answer to an eternal and omnipotent God who is angry because we have become lawless and broken His commandments.

You can love one another all you want to, even the unbelievers do that. If you are not covered by the blood of Jesus Christ, and therefore taken on the righteousness of Christ, you will be spending a very long time in the lake of fire!

 

[superdave5221]

Catholics didn't change the 10 commandments. It says the same thing in the Bible used by Catholics. The list you used is a paraphrasing of the commandments found in Scripture.

I don't mean to be insulting to anyone here, but realistically, the idea of ''Having no other Gods before me'' implies also having no graven images of false idols...The list is merely a list, a streamlined and simplified version of Scripture...sort of like how Jesus said there were only Two commandments....we know what we said, but we know that following those two things implies many, many more things that are not spelled out word-for-word by him (and include following the 10 commandments).

If Christians spend time with the Bible as they should, they would know that the ''List'' is just a quick reference guide to the larger, more important scriptural passage.

The following is from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia:

The system of numeration found in Catholic Bibles, based on the Hebrew text, was made by St. Augustine (fifth century) in his book of "Questions of Exodus" ("Quæstionum in Heptateuchum libri VII", Bk. II, Question lxxi), and was adopted by the Council of Trent. It is followed also by the German Lutherans, except those of the school of Bucer. This arrangement makes the First Commandment relate to false worship and to the worship of false gods as to a single subject and a single class of sins to be guarded against — the reference to idols being regarded as mere application of the precept to adore but one God and the prohibition as directed against the particular offense of idolatry alone. According to this manner of reckoning, the injunction forbidding the use of the Lord's Name in vain comes second in order; and the decimal number is safeguarded by making a division of the final precept on concupiscence--the Ninth pointing to sins of the flesh and the Tenth to desires for unlawful possession of goods.

As you can see, this system of numbering, leaving out the second commandment was made by Roman Catholics in the fifth century.

Why not use the Ten Commandments as found in Exodus and Deuteronomy?

In particular, why the problem with the second commandment?

I don't mean to be insulting, but God seemed to take idolatry pretty seriously.

 

[quickfire]

What do you mean "read them properly"?

Do you mean, Do as I say?


I see nothing about idolatry in the Roman Catholic Ten Commandments.

i have read them all once again and again and a gain and they are all the same to me

i do not wish for you to do as i say i am not a pieman and you are not simple simon i would not treat anyone that way i have no idea why you say this to me i just want people to love one another and to understand poeopl believs better so we can love one another

 

[Custos_Clavium]

The following is from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia:

The system of numeration found in Catholic Bibles, based on the Hebrew text, was made by St. Augustine (fifth century) in his book of "Questions of Exodus" ("Quæstionum in Heptateuchum libri VII", Bk. II, Question lxxi), and was adopted by the Council of Trent. It is followed also by the German Lutherans, except those of the school of Bucer. This arrangement makes the First Commandment relate to false worship and to the worship of false gods as to a single subject and a single class of sins to be guarded against — the reference to idols being regarded as mere application of the precept to adore but one God and the prohibition as directed against the particular offense of idolatry alone. According to this manner of reckoning, the injunction forbidding the use of the Lord's Name in vain comes second in order; and the decimal number is safeguarded by making a division of the final precept on concupiscence--the Ninth pointing to sins of the flesh and the Tenth to desires for unlawful possession of goods.

As you can see, this system of numbering, leaving out the second commandment was made by Roman Catholics in the fifth century.

Why not use the Ten Commandments as found in Exodus and Deuteronomy?

In particular, why the problem with the second commandment?

I don't mean to be insulting, but God seemed to take idolatry pretty seriously.

You can use the 10 commandments as laid out in Exodus and/or Deuteronomy. You are not taking into account how ridiculously illiterate the general population was or how ridiculously expensive it was to print texts until the invention of the printing press. It made more sense to create shorthand, simplified, and streamlined paraphrasing of something everyone already knew from hearing it. When one went to mass, one heard those passages read aloud in their entirety...when one needed a reference, there was the simplified list.

Thank the Lord your live in a literate, modern society where books are disposable and everything is on the internet for free. Most Christians in the history of the world did not have that advantage. They got simplified versions to glance at because they were all their city/community/church could afford or have room for. It's easier to learn/remember that way when you aren't the rich son of a nobleman who can read and write.