mid-tribulation coming???

peterT · Mar 23, 2012

There is no such thing as a mid-tribulation coming, it’s just another pre-tribulation doctrine.

Jesus said When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet- For then shall be great tribulation.

The abomination of desolation starts in the middle of the 7 years, Thus The great tribulation is for 3 ½ years.

To say Jesus comes mid-tribulation there is no such thing, I think they mean middle of the seven years, which is just another pre-tribulation doctrine.

shroom2 · Mar 23, 2012

peterT said:

Right. We all know Christ will return for the church BEFORE the tribulation starts.

...and it won't be "secret". If you're Christian, you will go!

1 Thes 4:
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thes 5:9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Avinu · Mar 23, 2012

Amen Peter, not to mention 2 Thess. 2:3, "For that day will NOT come until the falling away AND the son of perdition is revealed"

The son of perdition doesn't get revealed until mid-trib. as he becomes anti-christ.

Trax · Mar 23, 2012

peterT said:

Enoch was raptured. Elijah was raptured. The OT saints were ressurected and taken to heaven.
The two witnesses were ressurrected and taken to heaven. What is so hard about the
church going? The times of the Gentiles will have to end before the veil of spiritual blindness
is taken away from the Jews.

shroom2 · Mar 23, 2012

Trax said:

Enoch is dead.

Heb 11:
5) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;
13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises

Enoch was moved by God to escape those who were trying to kill him. He eventually died, as all men do.

John 3:13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

OT believers will be raised at the resurrection of the just, after Armageddon.

That is future. It will happen in the tribulation.

The church will be raptured. Nobody else has been raised to eternal life yet, except Christ.

Right. After the church is raptured, God will pick up His "program" for Israel.

Trax · Mar 23, 2012

shroom2 said:

The OT saints have been pulled out of the grave and gone. John sees them in Rev.
Later John sees the church. Enoch and Elijah went up. Thw two witnesses go up.
The church goes up and doesn't go through Jacob's Trouble.

shroom2 · Mar 23, 2012

Trax said:

I agree with the bolded part.

All of the book of Revelation is future. The bible plainly says Enoch died. It plainly says no man has ascended to heaven except Christ.

Laodicea · Mar 23, 2012

shroom2 said:

That is not what revelation teaches
Revelation 1:19
(19) Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Revelation 4:1
(1) After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Trax · Mar 23, 2012

shroom2 said:

I grant this, they may have been taken to Abraham's bossom. But now, Heaven is open.

Mat 27:51-53 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, (53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

These OT saints are in heaven. He pulled them out and they are gone.

And not all the book of Rev is future. Rev 12 starts out with an event that has already happened. WHen John sees the throne room in Rev 4, when he is given the revelation, chapter
4 is a past event, but it is given so you would understand and see what is going on and takes
you into future events. John sees the elders, which had already gone and BEFORE Jesus
went up. Jesus stayed on the earth 40 more days to explain things, but those elders
John sees in Rev 4 are those in Mat 27:51-53. There isn't any reference to Jesus, the Christ
or the Lamb in chapter 4. In Chapter 5, the Lamb appears. The 40 days are over and Jesus
goes up. These elders are brought up to speed about the scriptures and Him, then you see
them worshipping the Lamb. By the time John sees this, its a past event. The future starts
when the Lamb takes the scroll.

Then later, John sees a multitude of people from nations and languages. You go from 24 elders
to a multitude. That's gentiles, or the church, which is mostly gentiles. Before that scene
John sees the 144,000, which is the first fruits. The times of the gentiles is over and those
144000 are the first to see the truth.

So, no more gentiles are going. Those 144000 don't need to be preached to, because God
seals them. The spiritual blindness is taken away and they see the truth about Jesus.
From here on out, its all about the Jews. People think the Gentile church is going through
this, but their job and time is over. Everything is centered around Jews and Israel.

Crimeny · Mar 23, 2012

i thought God raised up Elijah and Enoch so they didn't die but went straight to heaven..

AnandaHya · Mar 24, 2012

Crimeny said:

yes that is what most people reading the Bible would think but you will find that some in the forums like to ... ummm... come up with a more imaginative take on the verses.

Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

2 Kings 2:11
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

now I would like to see a BIBLE verse that says either one of them DIED and was buried...

lets look at Hebrews 11 IN CONTEXT:

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; [a] for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Faithful Abraham

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

AnandaHya · Mar 24, 2012

the natural division would be here:

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,[c] embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them..

***

THESE would be referring to Noah, Abraham, and Sarah who died in the faith.

if you noticed Abel is said to die. Enoch is said NOT to die and then three (Noah, Abraham and Sarah) are mention but you are not told if they live or die until verse 13.

peacefulbeliever · Mar 24, 2012

AnandaHya said:

the natural division would be here:

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,[c] embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them..

***

THESE would be referring to Noah, Abraham, and Sarah who died in the faith.

if you noticed Abel is said to die. Enoch is said NOT to die and then three (Noah, Abraham and Sarah) are mention but you are not told if they live or die until verse 13.

Where did you find that "the natural division goes here"?

The whole context of Hebrew 11 is speaking of faith - v2 For by it the elders obtained a good report v13 These - all of the above - died in faith and ends v39 And these all (all of the above) having obtained a good report (back to verse 2) through faith received not the promise.

JaumeJ · Mar 24, 2012

Avinu said:

I love Thessolonians, it is compact and full of advice, warnings and teachings. One that seems to be quite prevalent today is, understand this, in the last days those who loved (note the past tense) evil will believe lies. If this is not true today, it never will be.
YHVW does not "predict" things to show just how accurate He is, no, He, through His prophets, lets us know exactly what will come to pass in a creation peopled largely by those who act without their Maker in mind. He created all that is, and He knows the total nature of creation. He does not have to predict because He knows from the beginning. I hope the meaning of what I have posted here is understandable to all who will read. YHVH bless all in Yeshua, amen.

shroom2 · Mar 24, 2012

Laodicea said:

How do those scripture say that some of the events in Revelation have already come to pass?

John was "in the spirit on the Lord's day". He received revelation (prophesy) concerning the Lord's day. The Lord's day is still future.

shroom2 · Mar 24, 2012

AnandaHya said:

What do you do with these, Ananda?

John 3:13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Ecc 9:
5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Heb 9:27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Is Enoch an "exception"? If Enoch could go to heaven without Christ having paid the price for sin, then any man could go to heaven without Christ, and his sacrifice was not necessary.

peterT · Mar 24, 2012

Trax said:

Sorry don’t know what you are talking about.

I was saying that the tribulation is for 3 ½ years the last 3 ½ years not 7 years.

So mid-trib doctrine is just another pre-trib doctrine.

When Christians talk about a mid-tribulation coming, they are talking about Jesus coming in the middle of the 7 years, but the tribulation doesn’t start until the middle of the 7 years, so how could it be a mid-trib coming? the Mid-trib doctrine is just another pre-trib doctrine.

peterT · Mar 24, 2012

shroom2 said:

Where does it say that in the Bible??

Crossfire · Mar 24, 2012

While the tribulation period does last for a span of 7 years, it will be divided into two 42 month periods.Many believe that there will be a very serious & bloody battle in the Middle East which result in a peace treaty being signed by Israel and the surrounding Muslim neighbors. It is this peace treaty which will be the start of the 7 years.

The first 3 1/2 years will be a time of peace but also a time of great religious confusion. The Apostle Paul teaches in 2 Thess. 2 that a great apostasy will occur that will result in many believers falling away from the faith. Much of this religious confusion will be due to the building of a 3rd Jewish temple on a shared Temple mount over run by Gentiles as predicted by John the Revelator in Revelation 11: 1-2. There will be great earthquakes and famines during this time. This will also be the time when God sends two 'witnesses' who will preach in the streets of Jerusalem warning the nation of it's wrong doing. I also believe that this will be the time in which the False Prophet begins to make a name for himself and will lay down the foundations for the one world religion which is to come.

After the 3rd Temple is built, at the midpoint of the 7 years, the Antichrist will assume control over the 3rd temple and declare himself as God. This is called the Abomination of Desolation. The Antichrist and his false prophet will then institute a form of one world government / currency which will be accompanied by a one world religion where all will be forced to worship the Antichrist and take his mark or die / starve. Many believers will face great persecution and martyrdom during this time. This will also be the time frame when the remnant 144,000 Jews will emerge and begin the evangelize the nation of Israel, proving that Jesus was indeed the Messiah and that the New Testament is true because of all of the prophecy which has been and is being fulfilled during this time.

The 3 1/2 years will climax when the Antichrist gathers his armies in the plains of Megiddo (Armegeddon) in preparation to completely wipe the rebellious nation of Israel off of the face of the earth only to be thwarted as Jesus himself returns in the clouds. It is at this point that the New Testament saints, both the dead and the living will be 'raptured' up to meet Jesus and the Old Testament saints who had already ascended into heaven with Jesus after the crucifixion (*see Matthew 27:50-54 for scriptural support of the prior ascension of the O.T. Saints). Jesus will then confront the Antichrist and overcome him not with conventional weapons but words of declaration as the bowls of God's wrath are poured out upon the earth.

jb · Mar 24, 2012

[quote=shroom2;659241]

John was "in the spirit on the Lord's day"[/quote]

'I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day...' Rev 1v10

“On the Lord's day,” Greek, 'en teé Kuriakeé heeméra.' “Lord's,” “kuriakos" (Strong's NT:2960) means “pertaining to the Lord,” (only here and in 1Cor 11v20, “the Lord's Supper, “kuriakon deipnon&#8221

, the overwhelming majority of opinion is that this refers to Sunday. See Acts 20v7, 1Cor 16v1,2, John 20v19,26, Rom 14v5. It certainly does not refer, as you have suggested, to the day of judgement on 'the day of the Lord,' Greek, “hemera kuriou.” 2Pet 3v10.

I think you need to stop fooling yourself (and others), take your head out of the sand and seek God in earnest prayer and study of the Scriptures for the truth on end-time events, as there is no such thing as a (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture taught in the Scriptures!

Yahweh Shalom...

mid-tribulation coming???

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