Midrash: The LAW - Done Away With?

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A

AnandaHya

Guest
#21
These are true, but what does it mean to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength."? And do you think the Ten commandments are done away with? Shalom
No I think the ten commandments expand upon the two main commandments and to answer the first would take a long time but the simple answer is to submit to God's authority and guidance of the Holy Spirit and His commandments. However that does not tell most what those commandments are. I believe them to be moral precepts and I read Isaiah 2 and Zech 14 but do not see the point you are trying to make. the scriptures that comes to mind when reading them is that the Temple will be done away with.

Revelations 21

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple
.

Where does it say that God says to keep the feasts forever?

it talks about punish for those who don't won't get rain but nothing about keeping it FOREVER. besides when Jesus comes with the New Earth there will be no seas and rain isn't everything. It didn't rain until Genesis 2 after God made man. plants were watered by mists.

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


what is the Feast of Tabernacles? :) oh I found it! Hmmm. that is interesting :)

The Jewish Feasts - The Feast of the Tabernacles

" “Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty: Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee” (Deut. 16:16-17).

This is Israel’s Thanksgiving feast in which they acknowledge the Fall harvest and God’s provision for them. It is happy celebration and a time of joy and rejoicing.

This feast also remembers Israel’s deliverance from Egypt and their subsequent wandering in the wilderness for forty years. During this time Israel lived in tents and worshiped at the Tabernacle which was also a tent. To remember this time the Jews build small tabernacles or booths which walls of plaited branches and thatched roofs as God instructed in Leviticus 23:42. Today to fulfill the commandment, sekhakh (booth) is still constructed. It must be made of something that grew from the ground and was cut off, such as tree branches, corn stalks, bamboo reeds, sticks, or two-by-fours and constructed so it will not blow away in the wind. The Sekhakh roof must be left loose, not tied together or tied down. Sekhakh must be placed sparsely enough that rain can get in, and preferably sparsely enough that the stars can be seen, but not so sparsely that more than ten inches is open at any point or that there is more light than shade."


Yes everything is not done until Jesus comes again as for keeping the law well we have these verses....

Galatians 5

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,[a] and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.


Yes I believe God's commandments are important but I do not see where Jesus speak of keeping the feasts.
I had always considered them to be like having to be circumcised. God commanded that as well but then it was shown that circumcision is in the Heart not the flesh and I thought the festivals were kept in the Spirit of God not in man made rituals.

For example the feast of the Tabarnacle is to remember God's salvation of Israel from Eygpt and them wandering in the wilderness, we now have Holy Communion for remembrance of Jesus Christ sacrifice on the Cross. It talks about "something that grew from the ground and was cut off" that reminds me of the Bible verses about the Jewish people being grafted back into the tree and faith and promise by bringing them to the knowledge of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Perhaps when this happens they will stop wandering in the wilderness and darkness?

I think traditions and festivals are wonderful historical and cultural events but I ask does God require them for salvation?

Shalom. :)
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#22
AnandaHya: what does it mean about them being "a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ"?

That is the beauty of the Feasts of YHVH - He tells you His plan of Salvation, reconciliation and even how it all ends in the Feasts!!! The Spring Feasts talk about Yahoshua's first coming, His great Sacrifice - (Passover) - His resurrection - (First Fruits).

Shavu'ot testifies about the Torah (Past) - the Holy Spirit - (Present) - and the Latter Rains - (Future)

The Fall feasts talk about the great tribulation, the Resurrection of the Saints - (Feast of Trumpets) - the Judgement of the King - (Day of Atonement) - and the Wedding Supper of the Lamb - (Tabernacles!)

Study the Feasts! You will be absolutely AMAZED at the information that YHVH has hidden in plain sight!

Shalom
yes it does sound like a amazing study :) I think I might if I get a chance. do you have some websites you would recommend?

lol someone told me about blowing shofar. lol it made the imagery spoken of in the Bible make a lot more sense :)

also knowing about how scrolls are sealed with 7 seals and all seven must be open before reading the scroll helps with understanding as well. :)
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#23
found this website...

Jewish Feasts & Significance

Seven Jewish Feasts

Nisan 14 (Apr) — Passover Supper — the Last Supper
Nisan 15 — The Feast of Unleavened Bread — Jesus Crucifixion on this day
Nisan 17 — The Feast of First Fruits — Jesus Resurrection took place on this day
Sivan 6 (May) — The Feast of Pentecost — the Holy Spirit given on this day
Tishri 1 (Sept) — The Feast of Trumpets — This day will be celebrated in the Millennium Kingdom
Tishri 10 — The Day of Atonement — Jesus will be revealed as King on this day
Tishri 15 (Oct) — The Feast of Tabernacles — Jesus’ Birth & Millennium Rule starts on this day
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#24
Tishri 10 — The Day of Atonement — Jesus will be revealed as King on this day
Jesus is King NOW. The Day of Atonement already happened. On Calvary

Tishri 15 (Oct) — The Feast of Tabernacles — Jesus’ Birth & Millennium Rule starts on this day
how is Jesus' birthdate connected to "millennial rule'?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#25
yes it does sound like a amazing study :) I think I might if I get a chance. do you have some websites you would recommend?

lol someone told me about blowing shofar. lol it made the imagery spoken of in the Bible make a lot more sense :)

also knowing about how scrolls are sealed with 7 seals and all seven must be open before reading the scroll helps with understanding as well. :)
proceed with caution ananda
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#26
Jesus is King NOW. The Day of Atonement already happened. On Calvary



how is Jesus' birthdate connected to "millennial rule'?
don't know found it on the website. I don't think we need festivals we have the Holy Spirit but I like studying history :)

like I asked

Do you have to keep the festivals for salvation?

I have not found it in the Bible but if anyone will show me the scriptures I would be willing to read and look at them again.

yeah I know Zone "proceed with caution"

lol versus plowing headlong into everything ? lol
 
G

Graybeard

Guest
#27
Gimzani, do you follow Perry Stone's teachings?
 
May 18, 2011
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#28
I read Isaiah 2 and Zech 14 but do not see the point you are trying to make
It proves that when Yeshua returns for the millenial reign, Torah will go forth and be taught from Jerusalem. verse 3 of Isaiah 2.

Read Lev. 23 for the 7 feasts of God to be kept forever. They are not tradition, they are commandments but they are not for salvation. Just because something is not for salvation does not remove it from having to keep it.

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,[a] and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Paul is talking about the Rabbis pushing the talmudic laws. Jesus' birthday (which no where in scripture is given the day) has nothing to do with any of the feasts.

Do you have to keep the festivals for salvation?
No, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they are commandments. Stick with searching the scriptures, websites, other peoples books, etc always have something wrong. God's word is never wrong. Shalom
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#29
No, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they are commandments. Stick with searching the scriptures, websites, other peoples books, etc always have something wrong. God's word is never wrong. Shalom
yeah the websites, books and stuff are kind of confusing. lol I guess when I get a chance I'll learn Hebrew and Greek and read the Bible in the original language. maybe when the kids are grown if God allows. :)

lol. Until then I'll trust that God will point out the important stuff, like Jesus death on the cross and His resurrection and promise of salvation :)
 
May 18, 2011
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#30
Ecclesiastes 1:9 That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#31
It proves that when Yeshua returns for the millenial reign, Torah will go forth and be taught from Jerusalem. verse 3 of Isaiah 2.

Read Lev. 23 for the 7 feasts of God to be kept forever. They are not tradition, they are commandments but they are not for salvation. Just because something is not for salvation does not remove it from having to keep it.

Paul is talking about the Rabbis pushing the talmudic laws. Jesus' birthday (which no where in scripture is given the day) has nothing to do with any of the feasts.

No, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they are commandments. Stick with searching the scriptures, websites, other peoples books, etc always have something wrong. God's word is never wrong. Shalom
hi avinu.
i find millennialism an ominous teaching: you say: Yeshua returns for the millenial reign, Torah will go forth and be taught from Jerusalem.

the purpose of the Law was to point us to Christ.

so unless you have unrepentent sinners going into the millennium with a Glorified Christ and glorified saints, why would the Torah/Law go forth from Jerusalem?

exactly who will be living in the millennium, what kind of bodies will they have; how many gog & magog battles are there...etc?

and what about the feasts which pointed to Jesus? will we need them to remember Him when He is face to face with us? scripture CLEARLY says those things were shadows.

scripture says the Law can NOT make a man righteous: if you envision a millennium with glorified saints who are perfected - what do they need the Law for? THEY CAN NOT SIN AGAINST GOD!

if Christ's Righteousness has been imputed to us by God...is there a Law which could make us MORE righteous than that? i guess i would just love to see clear NEW Testament passages concerning all that (the OT is Hebrew; is shadow; pointed to Christ).

you know i am amillennial, so i see quite easily the fulfillment of the literal 1,000 years folks' ideas either during this age, or as representative of the eternal state.

~

also: we can indeed get really precise concerning the Lord's birth by looking at Zacharias and his time in the course of Abia (Luke).

zone
 
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C

Crazy4GODword

Guest
#32
I have heard it said in many churhces - (not all) - that the Law - (Torah) - has been done away with. Many churches use Colossians 2:14 as proof of this:
Col 2:14 “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances against us, which were contrary to us, even he has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the tree.”
The Greek word used in this context for "handwriting of ordinances" is "cheirographon" which means "Debt" - but in a few Bibles it is translated as "written code, with its regulations". Most say debt or handwriting of ordinances.

Since by this context it seems that our Debt has been nailed to the cross. Messiah goes on to say:
Matt 5:17-20 “Think not that I have come to do away with the law or the prophets; I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle hall in no wise pass from the law, till all comes to pass."
In light of all of this, are we not to also follow Torah and be blessed by it? (I'm not talking salvation here - but I am suggesting obedience.)

Again, my question is:
If the Law has NOT been done away with, then shouldn't we be following Torah?
We are saved by grace but how do we express our thanks our our love of the gift of Grace....proove it to God by love and faith, and produce fruits. You cannot be in the vine as a branch and live without fruit bearing or else you be picked thrown away because the fail of fruit bearing. Now brother I want you to understand what this brother is saying about Paul in the second post replied after your. Hear and listen friend.

In Christ
Bryan
 
May 18, 2011
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#33
hi avinu.
i find millennialism an ominous teaching: you say: Yeshua returns for the millenial reign, Torah will go forth and be taught from Jerusalem.

the purpose of the Law was to point us to Christ.

so unless you have unrepentent sinners going into the millennium with a Glorified Christ and glorified saints, why would the Torah/Law go forth from Jerusalem?

exactly who will be living in the millennium, what kind of bodies will they have; how many gog & magog battles are there...etc?

and what about the feasts which pointed to Jesus? will we need them to remember Him when He is face to face with us? scripture CLEARLY says those things were shadows.

scripture says the Law can NOT make a man righteous: if you envision a millennium with glorified saints who are perfected - what do they need the Law for? THEY CAN NOT SIN AGAINST GOD!

if Christ's Righteousness has been imputed to us by God...is there a Law which could make us MORE righteous than that? i guess i would just love to see clear NEW Testament passages concerning all that (the OT is Hebrew; is shadow; pointed to Christ).

you know i am amillennial, so i see quite easily the fulfillment of the literal 1,000 years folks' ideas either during this age, or as representative of the eternal state.

~

also: we can indeed get really precise concerning the Lord's birth by looking at Zacharias and his time in the course of Abia (Luke).

zone
Hey Zone how are ya? I know you and I differ in some of this. But you and I do agree that Torah does not make us righteous, it leads us to Messiah, we cannot become more righteous. My only point is that even though Yeshua came and delivered us from sin, it did not release us from keeping the commandments and feasts. Yeshua says it in Matt. 5:17-19, 1st John 2:3-4, Yeshua says all over the gospels about keeping the commandments and it even shows Him keeping the feasts as well as the disciples. Plus I love that God puts in one more time at the end of His Book, Rev. 22:14 Blessed are those who DO His commandments that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

By the way, sorry I've been gone for a couple wks, and didn't have internet access, how is it going witnessing to that jewish friend of yours? Shalom, Avinu
 
May 18, 2011
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#34
If different areas in the NT are talking about keeping God's commandments and then someone says "well Paul said says this, which tells me that Torah is done away with" then that is claiming that scripture doesn't back up scripture which is not possible. So the only conclusion is that we are missing something and it us getting something wrong. So we must go back to scripture and ask God to show us what we are missing. Shalom
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#35
If different areas in the NT are talking about keeping God's commandments and then someone says "well Paul said says this, which tells me that Torah is done away with" then that is claiming that scripture doesn't back up scripture which is not possible. So the only conclusion is that we are missing something and it us getting something wrong. So we must go back to scripture and ask God to show us what we are missing. Shalom
The ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross not the 10 commandments. Jesus died on passover the vail was torn when He said "it is finished" 50 days after He died was pentecost and 3000 were baptized. Jesus is called our passover and the lamb of God
 
Feb 9, 2010
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#36
The law has not been done away with,but we must always obey the laws of God,the moral laws of God are always to be observed and followed.


Paul said we do not void out the law,but we establish it,which means live up to the law.


Everybody has to obey the moral laws of God.


The Bible says that love works no ill towards their neighbor,therefore love is the fulfilling of the law,which God says love does not sin,so to truly love would be to abstain from sin,and obey the moral laws of God.


The 2 greatest laws are love God and people.


The 10 commandments are laws not to offend God and not to offend people,which is love,and laws of love,and love is the fulfilling of the law,so the 10 commandments have to be obeyed and is required.


The truth is everybody has to live up to the law,but in the Old Testament they could not do it,for they could not receive the Spirit to help them overcome the flesh and completely abstain from sin,but in the New Testament we can have the Spirit and live up to the law.


The Bible says a Spirit led life will not fulfill the desires of the flesh,which means a Spirit led life will not sin.


If led by the Spirit you can live up to the law for the Spirit will be in control and you can obey the moral laws of God,which always have to be obeyed.


God said if you love Him you will keep His commandments,and Jesus said if you do not keep His commandments you do not love Him,in which Jesus preached morality,moral laws.


When the Bible says if you are led of the Spirit you are not under the law,it does not mean we do not go by the law,but it means that if you are led of the Spirit you will not sin,therefore the law cannot touch you for prosecution.


It is all about obeying the law to be right with God,which we cannot do by the flesh in completion,but by the Spirit we can obey the moral laws of God in which lies the 10 commandments.



14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ(Colossians 2:14-16).



These passages of scriptures does not mean Jesus took away the 10 commandments and the law,but Jesus took away the physical ordinances of Israel,which could never perfect us,but was only temporary until Christ came,and that is why the Bible says let no man judge you in meats,drinks,holydays,new moon,or of the sabbath days,physical ordinances,and let no man judge you concerning the physical ordinances,which means they cannot tell you to keep them,which also says those physical ordinances were a shadow of things to come in the future,which means they were temporary,but the body is of Christ,spiritual,and does not lie in physical ordinances that cannot perfect,but part of the body of Christ having the Spirit in which you can obey the 10 commandments of God and all other moral laws of God and live up to the law that is required of all people.


The problem is there is too many people that are still somewhat fleshy,who go by the saying we are not perfect and will sin from time to time,and do not believe it is possible to obey completely the moral laws of God,not trying too hard to abstain from sin,but God says otherwise that we can abstain from sin if led by the Spirit,which the Bible describes these people as having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof,which means they claim Christ,but they still want their flesh to be in control and have it's way somewhat,and they are ever learning but never able to come to the truth that they have to abstain from sin to be right with God.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#37
Hey Zone how are ya? I know you and I differ in some of this. But you and I do agree that Torah does not make us righteous, it leads us to Messiah, we cannot become more righteous. My only point is that even though Yeshua came and delivered us from sin, it did not release us from keeping the commandments and feasts. Yeshua says it in Matt. 5:17-19, 1st John 2:3-4, Yeshua says all over the gospels about keeping the commandments and it even shows Him keeping the feasts as well as the disciples. Plus I love that God puts in one more time at the end of His Book, Rev. 22:14 Blessed are those who DO His commandments that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

By the way, sorry I've been gone for a couple wks, and didn't have internet access, how is it going witnessing to that jewish friend of yours? Shalom, Avinu
hi avinu!
i'm glad you're back:)i missed you a lot.

things are quiet at the moment with my jewish friends. we've reached a place where we will just be quiet for a time and think about things. the friend i'm really hoping keeps dialoguing is teaching me a great deal about how threadbare their hope really is. it's sad, and so important to just keep pointing and pointing to Jesus.

i understand re The Law avinu.

and we do agree that the Law can never make us more righteous than the amazing Gift, the righteousness of God we receive by Grace through faith in Our Beautiful, Wonderful Saviour Lord Jesus.

i also agree re The Law, that we now have a real heart (given by Him) and want to do what is good and right in the Lord's eyes, and we find His ways in His Commandments.

i just continually plead with my hebrew christian friends to be careful stewards of the True Gospel message (Grace through Faith: Gifts) particularly with our gentile friends.

i love you brother avinu.
zone
 
May 18, 2011
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#38
The ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross not the 10 commandments. Jesus died on passover the vail was torn when He said "it is finished" 50 days after He died was pentecost and 3000 were baptized. Jesus is called our passover and the lamb of God
That's all great, but I haven't said anything about ceremonial laws, and what do you think those are? Also where does it say that? I know Yeshua is the passover lamb, so I'm curious, what's your point.
 
May 18, 2011
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#39
The truth is everybody has to live up to the law,but in the Old Testament they could not do it,for they could not receive the Spirit to help them overcome the flesh and completely abstain from sin,
mpaper345, I like what you had to say, but this isn't totally correct, Psalm 51:11b, And do not take your Holy Spirit from me. David makes this plea to God in a prayer of repentance. Which indicates they had the Holy Spirit then also. Shalom
 
May 18, 2011
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#40
hi avinu!
i'm glad you're back:)i missed you a lot.

things are quiet at the moment with my jewish friends. we've reached a place where we will just be quiet for a time and think about things. the friend i'm really hoping keeps dialoguing is teaching me a great deal about how threadbare their hope really is. it's sad, and so important to just keep pointing and pointing to Jesus.

i understand re The Law avinu.

and we do agree that the Law can never make us more righteous than the amazing Gift, the righteousness of God we receive by Grace through faith in Our Beautiful, Wonderful Saviour Lord Jesus.

i also agree re The Law, that we now have a real heart (given by Him) and want to do what is good and right in the Lord's eyes, and we find His ways in His Commandments.

i just continually plead with my hebrew christian friends to be careful stewards of the True Gospel message (Grace through Faith: Gifts) particularly with our gentile friends.

i love you brother avinu.
zone
Amen Zone, we do have to be careful, because it can turn into a keep the law mentality to be saved if people don't watch it. That's why I always make sure to stress that Yeshua is our salvation and without Him we are lost. No commandments i.e. feasts, 10 comm. etc. will get us to Heaven if we don't have Yeshua. I love a song by Clay Cross, "I will follow Christ" it is a powerful song of proclaiming the name of Jesus and following after Him with all our being.

Keep me posted on your friend, keep encouraged, you may not realize how strong a seed you've planted. Us hebrews are pretty stubborn, lol. Shalom, Avinu