Midrash: The LAW - Done Away With?

[Gimzani]

I have heard it said in many churhces - (not all) - that the Law - (Torah) - has been done away with. Many churches use Colossians 2:14 as proof of this:

Col 2:14 “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances against us, which were contrary to us, even he has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the tree.”
​

The Greek word used in this context for "handwriting of ordinances" is "cheirographon" which means "Debt" - but in a few Bibles it is translated as "written code, with its regulations". Most say debt or handwriting of ordinances.

Since by this context it seems that our Debt has been nailed to the cross. Messiah goes on to say:

Matt 5:17-20 “Think not that I have come to do away with the law or the prophets; I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle hall in no wise pass from the law, till all comes to pass."
​

In light of all of this, are we not to also follow Torah and be blessed by it? (I'm not talking salvation here - but I am suggesting obedience.)

Again, my question is:

If the Law has NOT been done away with, then shouldn't we be following Torah?
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[phil36]

I think Paul answers your question very well


15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

17 “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.
19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

especially verse 17:

If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.

 

[Gimzani]

Maybe I'm not seeing what you mean by this.

To me, this says that Salvation is gained through Messiah Yahoshua - (Jesus) - I agree.

But the law itself was never done away with. So is it still in effect? I'm saying, "Yes it is."

Does the Law save us? No - God himself was clear on that. The Law defines sin - no more no less. There is only one solution to sin, and that is the Lamb of God sacrifice. Messiah Yahoshua - (Jesus).

But what of this era?

Christians today have embraced grace but have tossed away the Torah and have replaced the Mowedim - (feasts of the YHVH) - with Christianized pagan holidays. How can we do this and expect to ever be blessed by YHVH? Are we not doing the very same thing that the northern tribes of Israel did when they took on the traditions of their enemies but said that they were doing it in the name of YHVH?

If so then we are not walking in obedience to Him. We say we know Messiah but we do not show Him the Love that is due Him.

John 14:15 “If you love me, KEEP my commandments!
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Shall we return then to His Torah?

 

[phil36]

Maybe I'm not seeing what you mean by this.

To me, this says that Salvation is gained through Messiah Yahoshua - (Jesus) - I agree.

But the law itself was never done away with. So is it still in effect? I'm saying, "Yes it is."

Does the Law save us? No - God himself was clear on that. The Law defines sin - no more no less. There is only one solution to sin, and that is the Lamb of God sacrifice. Messiah Yahoshua - (Jesus).

But what of this era?

Christians today have embraced grace but have tossed away the Torah and have replaced the Mowedim - (feasts of the YHVH) - with Christianized pagan holidays. How can we do this and expect to ever be blessed by YHVH? Are we not doing the very same thing that the northern tribes of Israel did when they took on the traditions of their enemies but said that they were doing it in the name of YHVH?

If so then we are not walking in obedience to Him. We say we know Messiah but we do not show Him the Love that is due Him.

John 14:15 “If you love me, KEEP my commandments!
​

Shall we return then to His Torah?

When you say Torah, which part of ''instruction'' are you refering to.

1) all of the OT
2)The Pentatauch

I think you need to read all of Galatians. We were freed from the burden of the Law, so that we could serve Christ, be obedient to Him. We fulfil in Christ not by our own righteousnes, it's because we have a new desire to bear spiritual fruit in obedince to Christ.

Not by binding ourselves under the Old Covenant. If you read the Galatians text I posted.

Verse 17, is key to this.

 

[Gimzani]

By Torah - I mean what was given at Mt. Sinai. Leviticus, Numbers Deuteronomy. That stuff.

I have read Galations - many times. I still do not see how that says that the Law has been done away with.

All Paul is doing is contrasting the Law with Salvation. You see, the Galations believed that if they were to be saved they had to keep all of the Law both written and oral. This was because a group of Jews calling themselves "the circumcision" said that they not only had to keep the written and oral law to be saved, they had to be circumcised as well. Peter was so intimidated by this group that he was silent when they were saying these things - which was why Paul got so "cranky" with them.

Now let me say very clearly that I'm not suggesting that the law gets you salvation - this is not true today nor was it true before the Messiah. The Jews were well aware of this fact, which is why they awaited heir Messiah - (and also why many still await Him).

What I am saying is that the Law is still in effect. I'm saying that we must still obey the law in order to show love to the Messiah and to be blessed by YHVH. I'm saying that grace is there for salvation - but the Law is by no account done away with.

Does that make sense?

I've heard others say that it has been done away with, and I'm asking that if one does believe that, where in the Bible does it say that? If it is not in there then one must conclude that the Law is still in effect.

I'm contending that it does not - and therefore the Law is still in effect. If the Law is in effect, then shouldn't we as christians be doing what YHVH says to do?

 

[Abiding]

I have heard it said in many churhces - (not all) - that the Law - (Torah) - has been done away with. Many churches use Colossians 2:14 as proof of this:

Col 2:14 “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances against us, which were contrary to us, even he has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the tree.”
​

The Greek word used in this context for "handwriting of ordinances" is "cheirographon" which means "Debt" - but in a few Bibles it is translated as "written code, with its regulations". Most say debt or handwriting of ordinances.

Since by this context it seems that our Debt has been nailed to the cross. Messiah goes on to say:

Matt 5:17-20 “Think not that I have come to do away with the law or the prophets; I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle hall in no wise pass from the law, till all comes to pass."



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I find it helpful to answer the question of what it means "till all comes to pass" and how it can relate to "it is finished" and in Acts 15:7-24 Romans 7 and 8. The law will always exist. the question is what does it have to do with a Christian and how does it relate to the gospel
and how does it effect us if we try to live under it.
​

 

[Gimzani]

Ah! Wonderful insight! I never thought of that. My only thought on this comes from the Passover.

I have been keeping Passover for many years now and I know that when the Passover lamb was slain by the High Priest, the High Priest would announce to the people, "It is finished!"

You see, all of the events surrounding the crucifixion coincide with the feast of Passover.

(This is why the Mowedim are SO vital to Christian life - and why the Devil is so desparate for us to forget them.)

When Messiah came in on a donkey, it was the same day that the High Priest went to the pool of Shilom - (near Bethlehem) - and selected the Passover Lamb. The people would line the streets of Jerusalem with palm branches and wait for the Priest to select the lamb and parade it through the street - to which they would shout, "Hosanna in the Highest!!!" - which means "Save us!"

But that year THE PASSOVER LAMB was paraded through the streets - on a donkey! LOL!

That is why the priests got so mad. Remember Messiah saying, "if my deciples stop shouting, then surely the rocks will cry out!" (I love Yahoshua's style!)

My thought is, if even that little detail was taken into account, the end of the same ceremony concluding Passover - (it is finished) - would be the fitting last words of the Curcified Passover Lamb.

In light of those facts, I do not think He was referring to the Law. I think He was announcing who He was.

I think a better study lies in your words of living "under the law"... Do we live "under the law"? Have we ever lived "under the law"?

Must research...

 

[AnandaHya]

we do not live under the law but we live by grace of the Holy Spirit and that calls for us to do the following not out of fear of punishment but out of overflowing love that is placed in our hearts by God.

Titus 3

1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

You have to remember the purpose of the law as a tutor to lead us and the world to Christ but now we are adopted children of God. May the Love and peace of Jesus be with you and His light shine forth before you so you might walk the path of this life He has laid out before each of His children.

Galatians 3:19
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

Galatians 4
1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

 

[dmdave17]

Over time, I have come to believe that the gift of salvation instills in us the desire to follow God's Law. But I differentiate between the moral and ceremonial parts. I view the Moral Law as the blueprint for living a Godly life, whereas the ceremonial Laws are, for the most part, just guides for daily living. (See Leviticus 13:45-52 for the first pronouncements on hygiene and quarantine in recorded history.) Jesus summed up the moral aspects of the Law in Matthew 7, verse 12, when He said "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."

In his letter to the Romans, the Apostle Paul expanded on this concept; "The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not covet,'and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:9-10)

Therefore, I believe that salvation does not exempt us from following the Moral Law; rather it increases our desire to do so, in order to please our Savior. But Christ's death exempts from the eternal punishment (death) that is the result of breaking the law. He was the sacrificial lamb for all of mankind, past, present and future. With respect to the Ceremonial Law, I do not believe that we are obligated to follow that law, although anyone who chooses to should not be criticized.

 

[Jewliahr]

Thanks for posting this. I am trying to figure this all out. For so long the church has been following so many pagan traditions that it actually thinks that they are part of God's plan, but they are no where to be found in His word. I have read where God says to keep these Commandments so that He may bless us (Lev 26:3-13)! If you read further it says that He will discipline us ( as a father should if his children are disobiediant) if we chose to be contradictory to His word. No where does it say that he will no longer love us. Many times it says to keep these ordinances forever! Nowhere does it say (that I have yet to find) that he has changes his mind and that these no longer are His rules. Jesus followed these rules and TAUGHT these rules! So why do we think that they are no longer relevant?

 

[Avinu]

Gimzani, I agree with all you have posted on this thread, and it's all scripturally backed. I am hebrew and a believer in Yeshua, more verses that back up your claims is,

Isaiah 2:2-3 "Now it shall come to pass in the latter days, That the mountain of the Lord's house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow to it. Many people shall come and say " Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord." To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall go forth the TORAH, And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Micah 4:1-2 say the same thing. So here YHWH shows us that IN THE LAST DAYS, (I like how that scripture starts out with that) after Yeshua proclaims His mntn. above all mntns. Torah will go forth and be taught.

Then go to Zech. 14, to paraphrase the chapter, war, Yah fights for Israel, His feet(Yeshua/Jesus) step down on the Mt. of Olives, and then it is commanded that all nations will come up (after the Ezekiel temple ch. 40-44 is built) to Jerusalem and keep Sukkot/Tabernacles/feast of celebration.

So in conclusion these are all verses that back up what you were saying and shows us that Torah and the feasts haven't gone anywhere. Shalom, Avinu

 

[Avinu]

Thanks for posting this. I am trying to figure this all out. For so long the church has been following so many pagan traditions that it actually thinks that they are part of God's plan, but they are no where to be found in His word. I have read where God says to keep these Commandments so that He may bless us (Lev 26:3-13)! If you read further it says that He will discipline us ( as a father should if his children are disobiediant) if we chose to be contradictory to His word. No where does it say that he will no longer love us. Many times it says to keep these ordinances forever! Nowhere does it say (that I have yet to find) that he has changes his mind and that these no longer are His rules. Jesus followed these rules and TAUGHT these rules! So why do we think that they are no longer relevant?

Jewliahr, you are on the right track, stick with what scripture says, anyone who says different is wrong. If ever we believe something that is contrary to the word, then we are wrong not the Bible. (lol) There are so many scriptures just in the NT that tells us to keep Yah's (God's) commandments, I.E.

All through the gospels Yeshua/Jesus tells us over and over to keep the commandments. couple of my favorites is.

1st John 2:3-4, Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him" and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Here in Revelation 12:17 it says, that the dragon goes after those who KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND have the testimony of Yeshua/Jesus.

And I love how God finalizes His Bible in the last chapter of Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His COMMANDMENTS, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

What a way for our creator to show us how important His commandments are. Shalom, Avinu

 

[AnandaHya]

So in conclusion these are all verses that back up what you were saying and shows us that Torah and the feasts haven't gone anywhere. Shalom, Avinu

I'm sorry could you clarify something about your statement:

Do you still believe that people should practice all the laws in the Torah and keep all the feasts?

does that mean you still believe in sacrificing at those feasts?

I thought the Torah and the feasts were what is called foreshadowing that leads people to Jesus....I believe that the Holy Spirit will lead people to keep the moral laws God has laid down since the beginning of time but the ceremonies and the feast and things, I'm not so sure about.

how do you read the following verses?

Hebrews 10
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[c] 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[d] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Colossians 2:15-17
New King James Version (NKJV)
15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

 

[Avinu]

I'm sorry could you clarify something about your statement:

Do you still believe that people should practice all the laws in the Torah and keep all the feasts?

does that mean you still believe in sacrificing at those feasts?

I thought the Torah and the feasts were what is called foreshadowing that leads people to Jesus....

how do you read the following verses?

Hebrews 10
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[c] 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[d] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
__________________

No the sacrifices are done, Jesus did that, Heb. 10:11 is talking about the Talmudic priests who rejected Jesus, they still do sacrifices to this day.
But in verse 16 it says that the Lord will put His laws/Torah into our hearts and in our minds He will write them. Shalom

 

[AnandaHya]

Jewliahr, you are on the right track, stick with what scripture says, anyone who says different is wrong. If ever we believe something that is contrary to the word, then we are wrong not the Bible. (lol) There are so many scriptures just in the NT that tells us to keep Yah's (God's) commandments, I.E.
Shalom, Avinu[/B]

Hi Avinu what do you think are the commandments of God? I always thought they were these:

Mark 12:30-31
New King James Version (NKJV)
30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’[a] This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] There is no other commandment greater than these.”

then there is Matthew 5 where Jesus lays out the moral laws....

Matthew 22
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[d] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[e] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

[AnandaHya]

No the sacrifices are done, Jesus did that, Heb. 10:11 is talking about the Talmudic priests who rejected Jesus, they still do sacrifices to this day.
But in verse 16 it says that the Lord will put His laws/Torah into our hearts and in our minds He will write them. Shalom

ok that is nice to know that you believe so but what about feasts?

and these verses

what does it mean about them being "a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ"?

Colossians 2:16-17
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

 

[Avinu]

Hi Avinu what do you think are the commandments of God? I always thought they were these:

Mark 12:30-31
New King James Version (NKJV)
30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’[a] This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] There is no other commandment greater than these.”

then there is Matthew 5 where Jesus lays out the moral laws....

Matthew 22
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[d] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[e] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

These are true, but what does it mean to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength."? And do you think the Ten commandments are done away with? Shalom

ok that is nice to know that you believe so but what about feasts?

and these verses

what does it mean about them being "a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ"?

Colossians 2:16-17
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Since Torah includes the feasts and God said to keep the feasts forever, read Isaiah 2:2-3 and Zech. 14 the whole chapter.

Yes Colossians says let no one judge you, that's right. But it doesn't say don't keep them,(since they are a commandment from God) as far as them being a shadow of things to come which is the substance of Messiah, that's all true, but it isn't finished until after the millenial reign of Messiah and the final judgement. No where does it say don't keep these things.
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord I do not change." Hebrews 13:8 Hesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever." Now since Yeshua/Jesus is the word made flesh then God's commandments and feasts are just as important now as ever. Shalom

 

[JaumeJ]

All the Law, statutes and ordinances are fulfilled in God's Love. The two great laws, to love God with all one's mind, heart, soul and understanding and to love your fellow man as you love yourself. One cannot offend if one follows these laws. Love fulfills all.

 

[Gimzani]

AnandaHya: what does it mean about them being "a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ"?

That is the beauty of the Feasts of YHVH - He tells you His plan of Salvation, reconciliation and even how it all ends in the Feasts!!! The Spring Feasts talk about Yahoshua's first coming, His great Sacrifice - (Passover) - His resurrection - (First Fruits).

Shavu'ot testifies about the Torah (Past) - the Holy Spirit - (Present) - and the Latter Rains - (Future)

The Fall feasts talk about the great tribulation, the Resurrection of the Saints - (Feast of Trumpets) - the Judgement of the King - (Day of Atonement) - and the Wedding Supper of the Lamb - (Tabernacles!)

Study the Feasts! You will be absolutely AMAZED at the information that YHVH has hidden in plain sight!

Shalom

 

[Gimzani]

You see!? THIS is what I was getting at. No one will be judged by not keeping the Law, because yes, you ARE covered by Grace. But those who do will be exceedingly blessed because you will have practiced what you will do in the Kingdom!

Faith = Salvation
Obedience = Blessing

Shalom