Millions of years ago ! ?

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no million of years - in an expanding/stretched out Universe million of years ago the sun would have been bigger, hotter and nearer the earth = scalding steam and dust and ashes = no life or evolution possible - any comments - wincam
You're right. It's impossible for the world to have been created millions or billions of years ago by the process of evolution. Who ever believes in that poppycock of evolution belongs in an insane asylum.



[SUP]1[/SUP] (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.



[SUP]1[/SUP] (To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David.) The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity:there is none that doeth good.

[SUP]0[/SUP] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[SUP]21[/SUP] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[SUP]22[/SUP] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[SUP]23[/SUP] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[SUP]24[/SUP] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[SUP]25[/SUP] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
 
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popeye

Guest
Sorry I was never convinced into the soup thing and that something came out of nothing

This refers to abiogenesis, not evolution. Furthermore, nobody argued that life came from nothing.


that life emerged out of something dead

Who claims it did? But again, this refers to abiogenesis.


and that all this complexity we see developed by accident (and from scratch).

An accident implies a plan gone awry. There was no plan, so evolution wasn't an accident or success - it just happened through natural means. Or, if you're a theist who accepts evolution, you might argue that evolution occurred according to God's plans. Either way, evolution wasn't an accident.

Calling a natural event an accident is like saying a lake accidentally froze when temperatures dropped.


P.S. and yeah, none of the 3 has been observably confirmed. These things go against the law of physics and all possible laws of nature. Then you want people to think it credible! There's no way how: something out of nothing, life out of death and intelligent design on accident - all 3 classify as a MIRACLE. That kind of stuff simply doesnt happen even given billions of years... of course unless you believe in God...
Since you were wrong on all 3 accounts, I guess we don't have to worry about these complications.



Funny how she nailed you so completely and you are oblivious to it.
 
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Very well, but understand I am going to treat you as I would any other student. Before I go on I want you to give some deeper consideration to the things I have already given you. For example: From post #25, I would like for you to explain to me the picture scripture gives us of the nature of God and why this is important to our understanding of how man was created in the image and likeness of God. I am not at this point interested in whether or not you agree with it. I only want to know that you understand it.
The nature of any object or person is always made up of two parts:
essence: (spirit, ever-present, immortal, holy, eternal, self-existing, all powerful, invisible, self-sustaining, all-knowing, unified, tracencent)
character: (Holy,Good,faithful,patient,righteous,honest,loving,just,fair,forgiving,pure,consistent,merciful....more)

... to say about the image of God than just the simple fact that he is Spirit. ( I do not know, He may be whatever He wants to be)

Man:
Possesses a spirit.
Man also possesses the same intrinsic qualities that define the nature and character of God, yet limited in degree.
Man was created as a holy and righteous being.
He was created as an eternal being, ---- endowed with wisdom (not agree).
He was created with the capacity to love, to dispense mercy, kindness, goodness, compassion, and justice.
Man was given transcendence – he was placed over all God’s creation to ruler over it.

This is what defines man as one created in the image and likeness of God. As such,
man is the closest thing to God that exists in creation.


Question: if all this good attributes comes as part of the creation of man in the image and likeness of the essence and character of God,
Where the bad bits comes from? God as Well?
 
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oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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The nature of any object or person is always made up of two parts:
essence: (spirit, ever-present, immortal, holy, eternal, self-existing, all powerful, invisible, self-sustaining, all-knowing, unified, tracencent)
character: (Holy,Good,faithful,patient,righteous,honest,loving,just,fair,forgiving,pure,consistent,merciful....more)

... to say about the image of God than just the simple fact that he is Spirit.

Man:
Possesses a spirit.
Man also possesses the same intrinsic qualities that define the nature and character of God, yet limited in degree.
Man was created as a holy and righteous being.
He was created as an eternal being, ---- endowed with wisdom (not agree).
He was created with the capacity to love, to dispense mercy, kindness, goodness, compassion, and justice.
Man was given transcendence – he was placed over all God’s creation to ruler over it.

This is what defines man as one created in the image and likeness of God. As such,
man is the closest thing to God that exists in creation.


Question: is all this good attributes comes as part of the creation of man in the image and likeness of the essence and character of God,
Where the bad bits comes from? God as Well?
That is a good question. Whatever is bad in man's behavior comes not as the result of divine attributes but from a distortion of them. Man was also created as a free will being just as God is. When we get to the garden scenario and the fall of man I will have much to say on this. For now just focus on how the nature of God is reflected in the creation of man as it was before the fall of man. This was the ideal. This is where man stood as the perfect representation of his Creator. What happens after sin enters the world of man is different matter entirely.
 
V

VioletReigns

Guest
Yes, science is a theory. However, I don't think you quite understand what a theory is.

In science, a theory does not refer to a hunch or an educated guess. Instead, a theory refers to an explanation of proven phenomena.

I highly recommend you watch the following video. It goes over the basics of what evolution is, and more importantly, what it is not. You might find it interesting, even if it ultimately doesn't convince you either which way.

[video=youtube;XdddbYILel0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdddbYILel0[/video]

I have no problem with people who reject evolution based solely on the fact that it contradicts the Bible. What bothers me is when people misrepresent evolution to validate their beliefs.
Thank you, dear Percepi. I understand how I used the word theory incorrectly. I appreciate you alerting me to that.

Although I can nod in agreement to much of what the video states regarding organisms developing & diversifying over time, I cannot agree with the statement, "Humans and modern apes share a common ape-like ancestor." I'm just not convinced.

But I certainly enjoyed viewing this video and thank you for taking the time to post it. :)
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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That's not what was said or inferred at all. You're misrepresenting what was said to confirm your own bias.

I appreciate the honesty, but if you don't care to understand what evolution actually is, then don't makes claims about evolution as if you do know. Or at the very least, be willing to correct your views about evolution if you're corrected.

If I say, "Nowhere does the Bible claim x" and someone corrects me, then I'm going to look into the statement I said and the evidence presented and correct myself accordingly. It would be dishonest to say, "Nowhere does the Bible claim x", then turn around and say, "I don't care to study the Bible - it's rubbish.", then continue arguing that the "Bible never claimed x". This is precisely what you're doing, and it's wrong.

Well, yes, you're right. But there's still a fundamental difference between modern ape and ancient ape.

If they aren't interested in evolution, they shouldn't talk about evolution.

As I mentioned before, being an atheist or an agnostic doesn't necessarily make you more scientifically literate. Most people, theist and atheist, have a very poor understanding of science - including evolution.

This refers to abiogenesis, not evolution. Furthermore, nobody argued that life came from nothing.

Who claims it did? But again, this refers to abiogenesis.

An accident implies a plan gone awry. There was no plan, so evolution wasn't an accident or success - it just happened through natural means. Or, if you're a theist who accepts evolution, you might argue that evolution occurred according to God's plans. Either way, evolution wasn't an accident.

Calling a natural event an accident is like saying a lake accidentally froze when temperatures dropped.

Since you were wrong on all 3 accounts, I guess we don't have to worry about these complications.
Yes, atheists when proven wrong normally resort to empty rhetorics, demagogy and terminology to evade answering the tricky parts of their belief system. Just as you admitted in your next post "we dont have a definite answer yet". This is because you wont accept the Biblical answer, and that's okay, we all have a choice; but dont call these scenarios scientific. They are not. Things that are explained within natural laws, even fictiously like in theoretizing in math are all science. But if things contradict natural laws they are MIRACLE by definition.

Whether we call things this or that way, it's correct both ways: life does not emerge out of something inanimate, to say it differently as you objected for my innacuracy because I said "something dead". It's correct either way you want to call it, life does not emerge out of something inanimate. You also had objection that I was addressing abiogenesis when we're talking about evolution. But that supposed pre-ancestor of man had to come from somewhere. If God did not create us, then he had to progressively come from that soup - where else?

Speciation aka adaptation is proven science. What is not proven science is one-kind-into-another progression, such as, reptiles into birds - these things have NEVER been proven, with all these fossils laying around that atheists are examining to prove the theory. There has NEVER been found ANY transitional fossil from one kind to another. Never. So called microevolution or speciation of a kind (such as wolf and dog probably originating from the same kind, or one species of bird developing into another) is somewhat observed, and also Biblical, but that's speciation and adaptation, not evolution. Furthermore, there has NEVER been proven addition of new genetic information to create a more complex organism. Only corruption and loss. A man is incredibly more complex than amoeba: to supposedly create another kind, an insane amount of new information must be added, and this information must function together well enough during the process that the organism survives and stay strong to pass it on. Even given billions of years this simply does not happen by natural laws. Genetic mutations only cause illness and death, that's all, and else is just adaptation aka speciation, different color of hair, taller growth, thicker eyelids for people adapted to snowy areas... this does not ever create another kind of organism, just species within the same kind. Evolution theory proponents use the misnomer evolution for adaptation in order to claim that kind transitioning is also a proven fact, when it is not. This confusion of terms is not very scientific.

Why do men think the laws of nature are in place? They are in place so when something out of these laws happens, man might know that it is supernatural and caused by interference of someone/something out of the universe Which/Who is above these laws, that all the matter subjects to. So man can understand and know it as a sign of divine origin, and that it's not just a "normal" thing. To be pulled by gravity is natural and normal. To suddenly start flying and defy the laws of nature, like say, Jesus ascended, and this not be repeatable event for other men under specified conditions, is a miracle, not science or laws of nature. Same goes for abiogenesis, creation ex nihilo (in Biblical version, it's actually by the Word of God) and complex organisms from scratch (in atheist version, without an intelligent designer involved, to comply to your request that "accident" is a wrong term). This is why the Bible says that atheists have no excuse!

Btw, when we're talking about the laws of nature, something just hit me, the second law of thermodynamics says, the entropy of a system never decreases, but, will spontaneously evolve toward maximum entropy.

The result of spontaneous evolving of things causes only more disorder and chaos. Yet this universe is full of laws that the whole matter subjects to. Not to even venture much into what this tells about theory of evolution which believes that it is possible for a functioning complexity to spontaneously evolve into an even greater order of functioning complexity.

I'll try to be more precise:

-SOMETHING EMERGING OUT OF NOTHING (smashingly breaking laws of physics)
-LIFE EMERGING OUT OF INANIMATE SOURCE (which is the basis for theory of evolution to work on because you have to have that imaginary ancestor of man come from somewhere; again completely defying natural laws)
-COMPLEX FUNCTIONING SYSTEMS (ORGANISMS) THAT PROGRESSIVELY EMERGED INTO GREATER AND GREATER COMPLEXITY, ALL FROM SCRATCH THROUGH MUTATIONS, WITHOUT INTELLIGENT DESIGNER INVOLVED (defying the law of entropy)

This is what atheists actually believe - no matter if a term might be not 100% accurate here and there, but I did try to be accurate. To me, it's unbelieveable how great faith it takes. Atheists believe in greater miracles than Christians.

mir•a•cle (mĭrˈə-kəl) n.

An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God:
 
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Thank you, dear Percepi. I understand how I used the word theory incorrectly. I appreciate you alerting me to that.

Although I can nod in agreement to much of what the video states regarding organisms developing & diversifying over time, I cannot agree with the statement, "Humans and modern apes share a common ape-like ancestor." I'm just not convinced.

But I certainly enjoyed viewing this video and thank you for taking the time to post it. :)
not at all - a cover up for what is being postulated in the main from the start and is being both denied, covered up at one and the same time so heads they win and tails you/we lose - micro evolution or variation is obvious and undeniable but macro or origins evolution is impossible and cannot happen and did not happen - Evolution is fraught with fakes, frauds , cons, denials, cover ups ad infinitum and ad absurdum the most recent cover up exposed is that Dinosaurs became extinct millions of years ago - to actually see and know what Evolutionists are really taught and believe and accept see DVD at www.EvolutionvsGod.com - wincam
 
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Even given billions of years this simply does not happen by natural laws. Genetic mutations only cause illness and death, that's all, and else is just adaptation aka speciation, different color of hair, taller growth, thicker eyelids for people adapted to snowy areas... this does not ever create another kind of organism, just species within the same kind. Evolution theory proponents use the misnomer evolution for adaptation in order to claim that kind transitioning is also a proven fact, when it is not. This confusion of terms is not very scientific.
This is not reasonable, mutation is random and could bring any result, most of the time negative, but here and there something positive, and if this is transmitted you have evolution. speciation is just evolution but seen a much larger time-frame, see the camel and the llama, the llama have cousings to, Huanaco, vicuna, alpaca. this animals are in the verge of becoming different species.
Also hybrid animals are a prove of evolution, the prove is in that they mostly infertile, means they are close but not that close.
It show how speciation is turning into evolution. you can not say a camel is a llama, but they below to the same family.
There is not intermediate species,???? you want to see a chicken with the head of a pig? that is silly, but you see hundreds of cases like the camel, lama, vicuna, alpaca , huanaco, .... cat, tiger, lion, leopard,cheeta.... wolf, coyote, dogs..... lemur, monkey, apes....
 
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What is not proven science is one-kind-into-another progression, such as, reptiles into birds - these things have NEVER been proven, with all these fossils laying around that atheists are examining to prove the theory.
I'm not an atheist but the evolution of birds is thought to have begun in the Jurassic Period, with the earliest birds derived from a clade of theropoda dinosaurs known as Paraves.

Everybody knows that (because Wikipedia says so).

But did you know that horses used to be the size of a small dog?

Try riding that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThquH5t0ow
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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This is not reasonable, mutation is random and could bring any result, most of the time negative, but here and there something positive, and if this is transmitted you have evolution. speciation is just evolution but seen a much larger time-frame, see the camel and the llama, the llama have cousings to, Huanaco, vicuna, alpaca. this animals are in the verge of becoming different species.
Also hybrid animals are a prove of evolution, the prove is in that they mostly infertile, means they are close but not that close.
It show how speciation is turning into evolution. you can not say a camel is a llama, but they below to the same family.
There is not intermediate species,???? you want to see a chicken with the head of a pig? that is silly, but you see hundreds of cases like the camel, lama, vicuna, alpaca , huanaco, .... cat, tiger, lion, leopard,cheeta.... wolf, coyote, dogs..... lemur, monkey, apes....
...And these are not functional new kinds of organisms...
Again speciation/adaptation (beneficial changes that might get transferred, the transition species-to-species that nobody is debating) is being confused with with transition kind-to-kind (mutation to that transitional length only brings organism to illness or soon death, as evidenced by the world around us)...
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
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I'm not an atheist but the evolution of birds is thought to have begun in the Jurassic Period, with the earliest birds derived from a clade of theropoda dinosaurs known as Paraves.

Everybody knows that (because Wikipedia says so).

But did you know that horses used to be the size of a small dog?

Try riding that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThquH5t0ow
Adaptation or speciation is NOT kind-to-kind transition (like reptiles to birds).
Next please...
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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Unsubscribing as this is pointless, evolution proponents just keep arguing speciation that isnt even being addressed and try to pass adaptation as being equal to transition from kind to kind. Sorry guys but I cant waste any more of my time. Have a nice day.
 
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Yes, atheists when proven wrong normally resort to empty rhetorics, demagogy and terminology to evade answering the tricky parts of their belief system.
I never did this, so how is this relevant?

Just as you admitted in your next post "we dont have a definite answer yet". This is because you wont accept the Biblical answer, and that's okay, we all have a choice; but dont call these scenarios scientific. They are not. Things that are explained within natural laws, even fictiously like in theoretizing in math are all science. But if things contradict natural laws they are MIRACLE by definition.
We don't have a definitive answer as to how life came to be. But we don't have to know how life occurred to understand that evolution is true.

Whether we call things this or that way, it's correct both ways: life does not emerge out of something inanimate, to say it differently as you objected for my innacuracy because I said "something dead".
1. How do you know?
2. You have no problem believing man was made from dust.

You also had objection that I was addressing abiogenesis when we're talking about evolution. But that supposed pre-ancestor of man had to come from somewhere.
It doesn't matter if God created the first cells from nothing or if the first cells formed naturally. Evolution is true regardless of our origins.

Speciation aka adaptation is proven science. What is not proven science is one-kind-into-another progression, such as, reptiles into birds
(A few) transitional fossils

these things have NEVER been proven, with all these fossils laying around that atheists are examining to prove the theory. There has NEVER been found ANY transitional fossil from one kind to another.
[video=youtube;TTOla3TyfqQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTOla3TyfqQ[/video]

Furthermore, there has NEVER been proven addition of new genetic information to create a more complex organism.
I'll admit that I am ignorant of any examples, only because this is something I have not personally looked into.

Even given billions of years this simply does not happen by natural laws.
Just because you say it can't happen doesn't mean it really can't.

Genetic mutations only cause illness and death, that's all, and else is just adaptation aka speciation, different color of hair, taller growth, thicker eyelids for people adapted to snowy areas... this does not ever create another kind of organism, just species within the same kind. Evolution theory proponents use the misnomer evolution for adaptation in order to claim that kind transitioning is also a proven fact, when it is not. This confusion of terms is not very scientific.
Mutations only cause harm? What do you think selective breeding is?!

You talk about adaption as if it somehow relies on a different process as evolution. Spoiler alert: It doesn't.

Why do men think the laws of nature are in place? They are in place so when something out of these laws happens, man might know that it is supernatural and caused by interference of someone/something out of the universe Which/Who is above these laws, that all the matter subjects to.
Scientific laws don't exist. We refer to certain phenomena as laws, sure, but it's reality that dictates the laws. It's not the other way around.

Btw, when we're talking about the laws of nature, something just hit me, the second law of thermodynamics says, the entropy of a system never decreases, but, will spontaneously evolvetoward maximum entropy.
The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics does not disprove evolution. This has been debunked over and over and over again, simply because people like you don't understand what the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics actually states.

The result of spontaneous evolving of things causes only more disorder and chaos. Yet this universe is full of laws that the whole matter subjects to. Not to even venture much into what this tells about theory of evolution which believes that it is possible for a functioning complexity to spontaneously evolve into an even greater order of functioning complexity.
Calling evolution spontaneous doesn't prove your point what-so-ever. In fact, saying evolution is spontaneous is probably the most vague thing you've said so far.

This is what atheists actually believe
And the majority of scientists who happen to be Christian as well.

no matter if a term might be not 100% accurate here and there, but I did try to be accurate. To me, it's unbelieveable how great faith it takes. Atheists believe in greater miracles than Christians.
I literally laughed at this asinine statement. You claim evolution is faith based, but all you did was go, "I DON'T GET IT. THEREFORE IT HAS TO BE A MIRACLE." Every single criticism you provided is based off ignorance and misconceptions. Evolution isn't faith based what-so-ever.

not at all - a cover up for what is being postulated in the main from the start and is being both denied, covered up at one and the same time so heads they win and tails you/we lose - micro evolution or variation is obvious and undeniable but macro or origins evolution is impossible and cannot happen and did not happen - Evolution is fraught with fakes, frauds , cons, denials, cover ups ad infinitum and ad absurdum the most recent cover up exposed is that Dinosaurs became extinct millions of years ago - to actually see and know what Evolutionists are really taught and believe and accept see DVD at www.EvolutionvsGod.com - wincam
Evolution is FULL of frauds, even though there are only a handful of examples creationists ever use. And guess who exposed those frauds? Scientists who accept evolution! That's right! Whenever a fraud appears, scientists correct themselves! Go figure!

Just because one person is a fraud doesn't mean everyone is a fraud. And let's face it, creationism is interchangeable with fraud.
 
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Adaptation or speciation is NOT kind-to-kind transition (like reptiles to birds).
Next please...
BTW, evolution is gradual. You don't have a dinosaur that gives birth to a bird. There is no single point in which one species evolves into another. Imagine if we took a picture of you every 60 days from the age of 1 to the age of 60. At which point did you become an adult? There is no single point, it's gradual!
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,106
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From wikipedia.

File:Ferrariofsanfrancisco/0587/86583c663d121f51e2feaa3d7724ededx.jpg A "Zonkey", a zebra/donkey hybrid






Hercules, a "Liger", a Lion/Tiger hybrid






A "Jaglion", a Jaguar/Lion hybrid






A mule, a Domestic Canary/Goldfinch hybrid.






References


DNA Discovery Reveals Surprising Dolphin Origins




Categories:

Liger= Feline kind! Not change from one kind to another

Jaglion= as above..not speciation.

Cross between a cow and bull-- that is Aurok kind interbreeding.. not speciation. Not one kind becoming another-- which is what is put forward by dinosaurs becoming birds..and us from the birds!

The sharks.. interbreeding.. that is the shark kind.. that is not a new kind. That isn't a shark becoming a pig or something like that.

Beefalo- same situation as crossing cow and bull- it is the Aurok kind. Like variations on dogs.

This has no conflict at all with a Young Earth.. creationist view point. It is God programming species who can interbreed and have variation.

So again.. you can't interbreed a cat with a dog. That is different kinds. Canine vs Feline.

No examples of macro-evolution here.

This is all adaptation.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
to them it was probably obviously so but along came pseudo/phony evolution scientists and mixed it all up - so how about you do you think 'origins' evolution is possible - wincam
It should be bleeding obvious to you what I believe, if you read even a hint of my posts on CC. I believe evolutionary teachings are a farce - fairytales for adults (apologies to the Brothers Grimm :p ). I believe in a biblical creation and a historical-grammatical reading of God's Word.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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It should be bleeding obvious to you what I believe, if you read even a hint of my posts on CC. I believe evolutionary teachings are a farce - fairytales for adults (apologies to the Brothers Grimm :p ). I believe in a biblical creation and a historical-grammatical reading of God's Word.
Ditto.....