Misconceptions

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wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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#61
They ceased for all the wrong reasons. Often where there has been a true revival, the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been restored. The real church was utterly suppressed by Catholicism for centuries. One notable restoration was during the period that John and Charles Wesley ministered. John Wesley stated, and I agree, that the spiritual condition of the church was the the problem. John Wesley was Anglican all his life, but was scathing about the pathetic state of the Church of England.

The Welsh revival of 1900's was similar. There was a revival in Australia in 1902 led by RA Torrey. In the 1970's the Charismatic movement restored the gifts to the church. Now the gifts of the Spirit are rarely manifested even in full on Pentecostal churches. The decline of the gifts is due to spiritual decay, not because we don't need them anymore. Speaking in tongues is the least of the gifts and overemphasis on tongues is unhelpful. Saying you must speak in tongues to prove that you are saved is heresy. But the gifts of the Spirit are necessary and will be until the end of the church age.

Why should the gifts be helpful? The Bible is not specific in many cases. I was with a small group of Christians who attended a wedding. We came from about 1,000 km away, from different directions. Two of the people came by motorbike. One was completely unable to move because of a terrible toothache. His brother said that we should pray for him. To myself, I said that God does not heal teeth. I'd never heard such a thing. The Lord said to me, "Yes I do!" I had a gift of faith for that moment. I prayed for the man and he was healed instantly. I've had nothing exactly like that since - 45 years ago.

I had some serious spiritual problems due to my lack of knowledge of God's ways. I met a man who had a number of spiritual gifts. He discerned the root cause of the problem. I may never have been set free otherwise.

Spiritual gifts do not replace study of God's word, prayer and fellowship. But they can sure shine a light on a specific problem, offer guidance in difficult situations, answer the cry of a seeking heart, encourage someone who is struggling or give direction to someone who lacks wisdom.

If you think that the Church is perfect and no longer needs spiritual gifts, I would have to disagree. I've been saved 50 years. The church is but a shadow of what it was when I was first saved.
It isn't about the church being perfect that led to the spiritual gifts completing their purpose. If you are meaning all believers being perfect.. yeah.. none perfect there.. not until all are one church in heaven.

If you are meaning the local church being perfect .. yeah .. no perfect local church.

But the bible is perfect, complete and lacking nothing for completeness.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
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#62
It isn't about the church being perfect that led to the spiritual gifts completing their purpose. If you are meaning all believers being perfect.. yeah.. none perfect there.. not until all are one church in heaven.

If you are meaning the local church being perfect .. yeah .. no perfect local church.

But the bible is perfect, complete and lacking nothing for completeness.
Depends on what you call complete. I believe that every word in the Bible is correct and that God intended for it to be so. However, it is not complete. John says that there would not be enough resources to record everything that Lord Jesus did.

Lord Jesus is the complete revelation of God. Lord Jesus is the Word of God. Lord Jesus is the "logos". A Greek person explained to me that the meaning of logos is like an armoury where every weapon is stored. There is another Greek term translated "word", which is "rhema". It literally means unveiling. It is a revelation. It is like selecting a weapon from the armoury. So a circumstance may require a sword or a spear or a bow and arrow. All the weapons are available, but only one weapon is appropriate.

There are times when the Holy Spirit will reveal exactly what "weapon", i.e., what word is appropriate for a given situation. A perfect example is that of Ananias and Sapphira. There was no New Testament at the the time. The Apostles relied on what Lord Jesus taught. There is no record of the Lord Jesus saying that people who lie to the Holy Spirit will be killed. But that is what Peter said to Ananias.

I've had many instances where the Lord has shown me things through another person that they could not have known about apart from God revealing it to them. From time to time, I've been able to help others from what God has revealed to me. I prophesied to a Pastor that his church was going to implode. I left shortly after as the Pastor did not take the word seriously. It duly happened. I had a number of people tell me I was wise to leave when I did. That word did not come to me through the Bible.

The Holy Spirit will never say anything that contradicts the written word. That is how we can evaluate what people claim to be revelation from God. There is a great deal of supposed "revelation" that is counterfeit. If there was no real revelation, there could be no counterfeit.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#63
We are talking about the three gifts that would cease according to prophecy . They ceased for all the right reasons. Since the Bible was now complete there was no need for those three gifts. And after the apostles passed on, there was no need for the gifts associated with the apostles. The Bible says that there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb. So the gift of apostles was limited. So were the signs, wonders, and miracles associated with the apostles.

bad exegesis was Paul an Apostle? what number was he? When was he called by Jesus Who replaced Judas?
and the guy who was sent by Jesus that laid his hands on Paul was not an Apostle he was a disciple the Bible says.
Truth over opinion is so much better and a bias. Read the book of Acts before you make such outlandish claims
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#64
Well I'm saying they professed faith in Christ.. very difficult to know exactly who actually genuine believed in those people.

But as to the outreach I was doing.. well guess I'd have to get you to contact my friends thru Facebook that were part of campus Crusade and part of my church in the past.... but I dont think we need go that far.
you are missing the point.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#65
Only God would know that.
Yes, God would not only know that, but He also decreed that. Therefore there is no record of those gifts being operational throughout Church history. It is God who told Paul to write specifically that three spiritual gifts would cease. That was prophetic.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
18,537
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#66
bad exegesis was Paul an Apostle? what number was he? When was he called by Jesus Who replaced Judas?
Paul says he was called from his mother's womb (Gal 1:15). It does not get any better than that. So how come you do not know this? And do you really think that Christians have no idea that the apostle who wrote over half the New Testament was not the 12th apostle? Amazing how people get their hackles up because they do not like the truth.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#67
Paul says he was called from his mother's womb (Gal 1:15). It does not get any better than that. So how come you do not know this? And do you really think that Christians have no idea that the apostle who wrote over half the New Testament was not the 12th apostle? Amazing how people get their hackles up because they do not like the truth.
LOL, read 1 Corinthians chapter 15 Ok. Let me show you here in the word of God what Paul said who I think knew more than you and I ok? Paul is speaking here

"Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then
by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."10 But by the grace of God I am what I am,


Now please you can continue to as you say it "hackles up " about not knowing the truth but here is Paul telling you who he is and what he knew as "the 12 "

Gal 1:15 you should read up more in the chapter
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#68
LOL, read 1 Corinthians chapter 15 Ok. Let me show you here in the word of God what Paul said who I think knew more than you and I ok? Paul is speaking here

"Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then
by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."10 But by the grace of God I am what I am,


Now please you can continue to as you say it "hackles up " about not knowing the truth but here is Paul telling you who he is and what he knew as "the 12 "

Gal 1:15 start at verse 1 and read through 15 in the chapter
13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

Paul is speaking of himself as being a Jew called to speak to gentiles.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#69
I’m a bit amused when people claim the gifts have ceased. I have no doubt the gifts have ceased for themselves but they continue among the saints to this day. I mean, sure, believe what you want. I’ll be over here with the saints and the gifts the Living God has given us.

Cessationism is a consequence of a weak and powerless church: having a form of godliness but lacking the power thereof. Until we are all formed into the fullness that is Christ, a perfect man, the gifts will accompany the saints.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#70
I’m a bit amused when people claim the gifts have ceased. I have no doubt the gifts have ceased for themselves but they continue among the saints to this day. I mean, sure, believe what you want. I’ll be over here with the saints and the gifts the Living God has given us.

Cessationism is a consequence of a weak and powerless church: having a form of godliness but lacking the power thereof. Until we are all formed into the fullness that is Christ, a perfect man, the gifts will accompany the saints.
I agree but I think that knowledge has taken over as secular humanism has taken over many of our founding seminaries Like Oxford, and many others.

it is really sad when I heard R. C. Sproul speak of Whitefield Theological Seminary where there use to be and having departments for things that are no longer there. Foundational things like prayer, missions, evangelism, they had BEEN REPLACED WITH

Positive thinking, postmodernism, and secular humanism science. These types attack the gifts of the Holy Spirit while they tout false teaching and their biblical knowledge as we are to kiss the ring. Don't take my word for it, go seek out these reformed schools of theology. YOu will see more of man's ability to learn and know more than doing more for the kingdom of God.
 

Vindicator

Active member
Nov 11, 2021
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#71
No Paul was prophesying about what would happen after Revelation was completed. While the apostles were on earth, all of the gifts were operational. After they passed away, some of those gifts ceased. And that is exactly what Paul had said.
Greetings.

If you would, tell me your interpretation of the following verses below (highlighted), in respect to your teaching that the gifts have passed away. I'm curious how the Cessationist position interprets them:

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
1,960
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#72
I’m a bit amused when people claim the gifts have ceased. I have no doubt the gifts have ceased for themselves but they continue among the saints to this day. I mean, sure, believe what you want. I’ll be over here with the saints and the gifts the Living God has given us.

Cessationism is a consequence of a weak and powerless church: having a form of godliness but lacking the power thereof. Until we are all formed into the fullness that is Christ, a perfect man, the gifts will accompany the saints.
Remember the cessation adheres to some gifts still remaining. It's mainly the three gifts of prophecy, tongues and gift of knowlege that all cessationists would say are passed.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#73
I have seen several absolute miracles! Those who don't see don't believe!
I believe you've seen. But can you verify? It's like Bigfoot or space aliens; everyone has belief and stories, no one has proof.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
10,450
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#74
Remember the cessation adheres to some gifts still remaining. It's mainly the three gifts of prophecy, tongues and gift of knowlege that all cessationists would say are passed.
Too bad the word of God doesn't say that huh? lol.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#75
Greetings. If you would, tell me your interpretation of the following verses below (highlighted), in respect to your teaching that the gifts have passed away. I'm curious how the Cessationist position interprets them: 8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
Greetings, Vindicator. As you probably know the epistles of Paul generally have many different thoughts in juxtaposition with each other. In 1 Corinthians 13 we have three distinct teachings: (1) the absolute supremacy of agape love (charity) among all the spiritual gifts, (2) the completion of Scripture and the reason for the cessation of three gifts related to that, and (3) the anticipation of seeing God and Christ face to face and then knowing everything perfectly. So we need to take verses 8-10 as one unit and verses 11-12 as one unit. And we need to focus on "that which is perfect". That word τέλειος (teleios) can have several meanings including "complete":

Strong's Concordance
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect

Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.


In this context, Paul is speaking about the completion of the Bible, since the gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge (supernatural) all relate to divine revelations. While the apostles were on earth the Bible was incomplete. The book of Revelation was written around 96 AD, and at the end of that book (the last book in the Bible) John put up a barrier against any further prophesies which would be regarded as Scripture. Thus three specific gifts which tie into the Bible are selected for cessation. The text does NOT say "When He who is perfect is come" (which many automatically assume). Therefore "that which is perfect" can only apply to the written Word of God. It was completed and there is now no additional Scripture. Therefore there is no need for those gifts.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
This is a separate and distinct thought. Even though we have a complete and perfect Bible, Christians themselves are not all fully mature, and even those who are mature do not have an absolutely perfect understanding of spiritual things. What Paul is saying here is that when we are all in the physical presence of Christ in Heaven, we will ourselves be perfected, therefore we will have a perfect knowledge of Christ and all things which were not fully understood while on earth.
 

Vindicator

Active member
Nov 11, 2021
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#76
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Thank you for the reply, and God bless.
The text does NOT say "When He who is perfect is come" (which many automatically assume). Therefore "that which is perfect" can only apply to the written Word of God.
Ok, here you make a jump that I don't think can be supported. We agree that it is not a reference to Christ, but disagree that it can only refer to the completed text, since the New Testament wasn't actually formally canonized until 393 A.D., which is 330 years after the apostles died and went on to be with the Lord. It creates a huge gap in your timeline for one thing.

If the text is taken to read that "that which is perfect" will not come until we are in Heaven, and refers specifically to a perfect understanding of one another as the Spirit gives us perfect understanding, then this problem is alleviated.
What Paul is saying here is that when we are all in the physical presence of Christ in Heaven, we will ourselves be perfected, therefore we will have a perfect knowledge of Christ and all things which were not fully understood while on earth.
Ok, good. Then we agree on these verses. So I guess my reply is that I think you are separating out the text too much into sections for my liking. I agree that Chapter 13 is about how we should operate in the gifts (very good, btw. Not many see that), but I think the natural flow of the entire Chapter focuses on how to operate in the gift of prophecy throughout, with "now we see in part" not referring to scripture but to how we know one another accurately through prophetic utterance. Remember, the previous verses were about LOVING one another, hence his reference to eventually seeing "face to face" is about seeing each other face to face, whereas now they only "saw" and "knew" each other in part.

When interpreted this way, it has a more natural flow, and doesn't refer to the perfected canon but to coming to a place of perfect understanding of one another in Heaven. Chapter 12 and Chapter 14 are likewise about operating in the gifts maturely, so the entire three Chapters have a continuous flow this way.

Just my thoughts, and thanks for the reply and the discussion.
Vindicator (aka, Hidden In Him)
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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#77
On the canon being closed.. it was considered closed and complete before any council decided it so.

The veracity and reliability of the books was obviously known before the council said so.

So then the AD 96 point of completion becomes accurate.

The other point is... in regards to 1 corinthians 12-14 being in the canon and then the cessationist saying the sign gifts have passed.. there is no issue because the cessation is after the spiritual gifts have done their work.

So 1 Corinthians 12-14.. is for the Corinthians then.. with the gifts all going on.. but then there is the look to the future in the 'more excellent way'

No issue there for cessationists
 

Vindicator

Active member
Nov 11, 2021
204
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#78
On the canon being closed.. it was considered closed and complete before any council decided it so.
What source do you have for this?
The veracity and reliability of the books was obviously known before the council said so.
The question isn't about their veracity being known, however. The question is when was the canon officially closed. Source documentation is therefore needed on this.
So 1 Corinthians 12-14.. is for the Corinthians then.. with the gifts all going on.. but then there is the look to the future in the 'more excellent way'
In bringing up "the more excellent way," however, he again returns to discussing operating in the gifts, so if you mean by this that the "more excellent way" was to not operate in the gifts any longer, why does he begin Chapter 14 with:

14 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Seems out of context if he is trying to argue that the gifts will be set aside to then return to discussing them again.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#79
“And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

That’s Revelation 19.

And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

That’s Revelation 12.

The spirit of prophesy sets apart believers in the final days. I believe it will be necessary to safely avoid the schemes of the enemy.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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London
#80
As per opening post-- I believe the Holy Spirit is God..is the third person of the trinity.. rebukes, empowers, guides, admonishes, directs, can be hurt, seals, etc...

But used some spiritual gifts .. sign gifts in particular and then those gifts fulfilled their purpose and God finished using them.

Faith, hope and love are spiritual gifts.. they still remain. Ministry gifts-- I am not so sure about.. I believe they have passed too but have no issue with people who are into them because they are very similar to being God given talented at something.

So only some gifts have passed.. completed their purpose.. not all. The death of the apostles, destruction of the temple and closing of the canon bringing this about.
The sign gifts were in operation after the apostles passed away, the temple destroyed and the canon of scripture complete ... Iraeneus testifies to them all in the 2nd century.

And when we speak in other tongues and earnestly desire the higher gifts, especially that we might prophesy we are obeying the completed canon of scripture.

No-where in the canon of scripture does Paul tell us to no longer speak in tongues or earnestly desire the higher gifts and prophecy.