More Scriptural proof of a Pre-trib. Rapture.

[watcher2013]

Plain, please show me a passage that says: "Old Testament Saints."

How about a passage that says: "New Testament Saints."?

I did a search for both of these phrases: "Old Testament Saints" and also "New Testament Saints" and I found zero results.

Now even though these two phrases do not appear anywhere in the Holy Scriptures; still we know that these two groups of people exist. How?

Simple. From the very teaching of the Holy Scrptures.

For example Plain, let me ask you, was Moses saved?

How about Enoch?

Was David saved???

Now the answers to these questions should be obvious and easy. As it shoould be clear to anyone reading this that I am being sarcastic. Of course Moses, David, and Enoch were saved. The Scriptures teach that they were and are saved. Therefore, they are saints.

But guess what Plain, they are Saints from the Old Testament. And justlike there are Old Testament Saints, we know that there obviously New Testament Saints also.

Therefore, just because the term "tribulation saint" cannot be found in the Scriptures; the teaching of Scripture does indicate that there will be saved people in the tribulation period (time of Jacob's trouble), so your reasoning and logic is not very consistent.


And the Holy Scriptures do make a distinction in the way how people are saved today in the Dispensation of Grace (also known as the Church Age) and how those in the tribulation period will be saved.

The Bible makes clear distinctions. Salvation in the time of Jacob's trouble will not be as it is today in the Church Age; and this very fact in the Scriptures further proves a Pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ.

when will the new testament saints ends?

which testaments saints that were resurrected in mat 27:
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

was Revelation part of the new testament?

is there such thing as tribulation testament?

 

[Cassian]

What about the thousand variations of post-mil and amil?

don't know of many post-mll since it is not the current popular theory. As to amil, it is a neutral one, since it stands in contrast to either post or pre-mll.

But Christ is King, and He will restore the kingdom to Israel in God's appointing time.

which does not exist in scripture except by twisting and redefining scripture to measure up to the supposition of pre-mill. Christ is coming ONLY one more time, the last day. It is the same time that Christ will judge all men, and deliever His Kingdom to the Father. I don't see any earthly reign anywhere.

No. There are many other verses. But doesn't it bother you if your theory can be toppled by one verse?

It has not been toppled yet in 2000 years. I might add that pre-mill was toppled by the Church over 1700 years ago, when they condemned the precurser to modern day versions, called Chilism.
In all of man's many tries, none have been successful in toppling the Gospel according to Christ, given ONCE and preserved by the Holy Spirit.

 

[watcher2013]

don't know of many post-mll since it is not the current popular theory. As to amil, it is a neutral one, since it stands in contrast to either post or pre-mll.



which does not exist in scripture except by twisting and redefining scripture to measure up to the supposition of pre-mill. Christ is coming ONLY one more time, the last day. It is the same time that Christ will judge all men, and deliever His Kingdom to the Father. I don't see any earthly reign anywhere.



It has not been toppled yet in 2000 years. I might add that pre-mill was toppled by the Church over 1700 years ago, when they condemned the precurser to modern day versions, called Chilism.
In all of man's many tries, none have been successful in toppling the Gospel according to Christ, given ONCE and preserved by the Holy Spirit.

Is Jesus the current King of Israel?

 

[Cassian]

Is Jesus the current King of Israel?

Yes! According to Paul, He is now King of Israel.

 

[watcher2013]

Yes! According to Paul, He is now King of Israel.

would you please kindly share the verse.

 

[Cassian]

would you please kindly share the verse.

According to Paul there are TWO Isreals. One is of the flesh, one is of faith.Rom 9:6, which corresponds to Israel of God in Gal 6:16.
In Matt 3:1-10 the context is about John the Baptist explaining that the Sadducees and Pharisees that came to him were not of the faith, but of Israel the flesh. They were not like Abraham who had the faith thus not of Abraham's seed.
Jesus is making the same comparison in John 8:40. Not only was their lineage not to Abraham, but actully back to Satan.--

Thus at this point you are claiming that God is interested in the Jew/Isrealite of the flesh, rather than the Jew/Isrealite of faith.

Rom 9:2-8 again Paul is comparing Isrealites of the flesh and Isrealites of faith. The children of promise are those who receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Gal 3:14

The most damaging statement of scripture to an earthly kingdom and a promise to the Jew of the flesh is Eph 2:11-16. Christ was Incarnated, became man so that He coiuld have a reunion with man for eternity. On the Cross, Paul says, Christ reconciled both Jew and Greek into ONE Body. There is no longer Jew or Greek.

The flesh Jews were punished for their unbelief with the destruction of Jerusalem and were dispersed throughout the world. There will no longer be a need for a fleshly Isreal.
The theory of an earthly Kingdom is anthetical to the Gospel of Christ. It seeks to overturn the work of Christ in creating ONE man.

Here are some more texts that both Peter and Paul took the words of the OT about Isreal and applied them to the NT Jew and Gentile. It is all about believing Jews and Gentiles are now the people of God. I Pet 2:9-10, Col 3:11-12, Gal 6:16, Eph 2:14-16, 3:6.

Christ joined them on the Cross and man should not try to undo what Christ accomplished.
So Christ is NOW reigning and IS King over HIS Kingdom.

 

[watcher2013]

Is Jesus the current King of Israel?

Yes! According to Paul, He is now King of Israel.

According to Paul there are TWO Isreals. One is of the flesh, one is of faith.Rom 9:6, which corresponds to Israel of God in Gal 6:16.
In Matt 3:1-10 the context is about John the Baptist explaining that the Sadducees and Pharisees that came to him were not of the faith, but of Israel the flesh. They were not like Abraham who had the faith thus not of Abraham's seed.
Jesus is making the same comparison in John 8:40. Not only was their lineage not to Abraham, but actully back to Satan.--

Thus at this point you are claiming that God is interested in the Jew/Isrealite of the flesh, rather than the Jew/Isrealite of faith.

I am merely asking you a question...I am not claiming anything.

Rom 9:2-8 again Paul is comparing Isrealites of the flesh and Isrealites of faith. The children of promise are those who receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Gal 3:14

The most damaging statement of scripture to an earthly kingdom and a promise to the Jew of the flesh is Eph 2:11-16. Christ was Incarnated, became man so that He coiuld have a reunion with man for eternity. On the Cross, Paul says, Christ reconciled both Jew and Greek into ONE Body. There is no longer Jew or Greek.

The flesh Jews were punished for their unbelief with the destruction of Jerusalem and were dispersed throughout the world. There will no longer be a need for a fleshly Isreal.
The theory of an earthly Kingdom is anthetical to the Gospel of Christ. It seeks to overturn the work of Christ in creating ONE man.

Here are some more texts that both Peter and Paul took the words of the OT about Isreal and applied them to the NT Jew and Gentile. It is all about believing Jews and Gentiles are now the people of God. I Pet 2:9-10, Col 3:11-12, Gal 6:16, Eph 2:14-16, 3:6.

Christ joined them on the Cross and man should not try to undo what Christ accomplished.
So Christ is NOW reigning and IS King over HIS Kingdom.

You did not answer the question but only gave your opinion. and your opinion is just one of many...

And considering all the verses you mentioned they can be summarise into this:

salvation comes to us all...That is why
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female...salvation comes to those who believed.

And those who believed will have that ticket to inherit the future kingdom:

Mat_25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
1Co_6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co_6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co_15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Gal_5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Do you still have flesh and blood?
Are there still unrighteousness in this present kingdom?

If we are still in our flesh and blood and this present world still have unrighteousness then we are YET to inherit that future kingdom where righteousness dwells.

the only question is when...
2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

WHEN...
At Judgement
At His appearing
AT HIS KINGDOM....

 

[Cassian]

I am merely asking you a question...I am not claiming anything.




You did not answer the question but only gave your opinion. and your opinion is just one of many...

And considering all the verses you mentioned they can be summarise into this:

salvation comes to us all...That is why
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female...salvation comes to those who believed.

And those who believed will have that ticket to inherit the future kingdom:

Mat_25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
1Co_6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co_6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co_15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Gal_5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Do you still have flesh and blood?
Are there still unrighteousness in this present kingdom?

If we are still in our flesh and blood and this present world still have unrighteousness then we are YET to inherit that future kingdom where righteousness dwells.

the only question is when...
2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

WHEN...
At Judgement
At His appearing
AT HIS KINGDOM....

So you were simply playing "devils advocate" and disagree with the pre-mill theory. What you have written here does not support a pre-mill theory, so I must assume you are not a pre-mill theorist.

 

[watcher2013]

So you were simply playing "devils advocate" and disagree with the pre-mill theory. What you have written here does not support a pre-mill theory, so I must assume you are not a pre-mill theorist.

What I have written looks for and hope for to inherit that future kingdom in immortal body.

 

[PlainWord]

Woa woa woa there big fella. I'm on your side. Christ said what would befall us, and that many will turn away from Him because they weren't prepared for it. Why would someone prepare for something they don't think they're going to see? Because that is part of the lie, the great satanic deception. The same one that keeps saints from operating in the gifts of the Spirit (why would you operate in something you don't believe works?); and the same one that keeps them from understanding the spiritual realm. The parts about the millenium couldn't be clearer if God had put them on a wall calender. And yet people will argue that endlessly too. That's part of the great deception. The endless arguing. Saints who argue endlessly are saints who aren't doing God's will. The more we argue, the less we bless. Share the truth, if it's not received, then shake the dust and move on.

Like I told Roger above, Paul chewed the churches out for debate and division. Pre, mid, post or non, doesn't matter to the person who is sick, homeless, and losing their jobs. We step outside satan's deception when we unite around them.

How did you know I am a big fella, LOL? 6-3, 260. I know we agree on more things than we disagree on, so didn't mean to come across so strong. To your point, most of the church is expecting Christ to appear first for the so-called "Rapture." So when the False Christ actually comes first (which is what both Jesus and Paul teach) many, many Christians will think he is the real Messiah. After all, this False Christ will be doing great signs and wonders and will proclaim himself as Christ. The Pope and most religious leaders will declare him to be Christ too.

Either a fake rapture will be staged or the False Christ will set the record straight that there is no taking away to heaven. Since there isn't a single verse in the Bible which teaches a trip to heaven for the living this should not be hard to do. The key thing is the "gathering." Jesus and Paul clearly teach that when the Lord returns, we will be gathered. So, Christians expect to be gathered. Fortunately Jesus warns us "Not to go out" when we are told (the first) Christ is here. We expect to be gathered by angels and since Satan will be bringing his demons with him, the gathering will not be hard to do for those who go out.

What happens to those who are gathered and fall down and worship the False Messiah is not clear. However, we do know a Great Multitude who come out of the Great Tribulation are seen in heaven by John. We also know that only a remnant of Christians are left when the real Messiah returns.

For those Pre-Tribbers out there, have you considered that Christ's ministry lasted 3-1/2 years and that the False Messiah will be given equal time, the same 3-1/2 years? Ever wonder why? Ever wonder why God would allow Satan equal time? Christ came to the whole world and nobody was Raptured. What would be the purpose of allowing Satan 3-1/2 years to deceive the unbeliever - they are already deceived. If the church is in heaven, only the unbelieving would be on earth and perhaps those who convert upon seeing Christ. Satan does not need to deceive the unbeliever. He wants to deceive the believer. So are we to believe Satan comes to deceive those brand new converts, those so called Tribulation Era Saints? Brand new Christians with no knowledge, no churches to attend, no armor of faith to protect them, sounds a bit like shooting fish in a barrel.

Why would God allow only brand new Christians to be tempted when they don't stand a chance?

No people, there is no such teaching of Tribulation vs. Non Tribulation Era Saints. There is no Rapture before the Tribulation. Satan comes to deceive God's People. He first tries to deceive Israel and when He fails, he then wages war against her offspring, the Church. Satan tempted and deceived Adam and Eve. He tempted Christ and when he returns he will tempt the Church.

Rev 12:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Our instruction is to be patient - to wait for the true Messiah.

DO NOT GO OUT AFTER THE FIRST CHRIST!!

Mat 24:

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


[SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before.


[SUP]26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


Rev 3:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

"The very Elect" are clearly here on earth. This very elect are not some made up Tribulation Era Saint. They are sealed with the truth. John teaches clearly that this Satanic temptation will come upon ALL THE WORLD. He doesn't say anything about the church being raptured away. In fact he writes letters to the 7 churches warning them to get their act together.