More Scriptural proof of a Pre-trib. Rapture.

watcher2013 · Mar 30, 2014

Everybody can understand that 1Cor 15:47-58 Talks about two things:
1. Resurrection of the Dead
2. Changing of the living to immortality.

Nothing about the Rapture...on the other hand, the above passage is one of the event prior to Catching away...

THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST.

Underlined for clarification...the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST...

THAT IS SO... SO... UNBIBLICAL chosen...

look back at the verses....THE COMFORTING WORDS ARE THOSE WHO WERE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE AGAIN...
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
THAT IS WHY THE BRETHREN WERE COMFORTED...THE HOPE THAT THOSE WHICH WERE ASLEEP SHALL RISE AGAIN.

IT IS NOT ABOUT THE TIMING OF THE RAPTURE....

Again...those who sorrows the dead are comforted...because There is HOPE that THEY WILL RISE AGAIN...

Chosen...
The transformation occurs at the sounding of the Last trumpet: As you have quoted from 1 cor 15
1. Resurrection of the dead
2. Changing of the living to immortality...

remember the Dead in Christ shall rise FIRST...

NOW IF THE LIVING ARE CHANGED TO IMMORTALITY....
THEY ARE NO MORE SUBJECT TO DEATH...SO EVEN IF THEY GO THROUGH YOUR TRIBULATION...THEY SHALL NOT BE AFFECTED...

THEY NEED NOT TO ENDURE ANYTHING...FOR THEY SHALL BE IMMORTAL...

Let me ask you, If you are immortal by that Time, would you not want preach the Gospel even more?

The problem with this teaching (tribulation saints) is...Christ did not die for all...

ChosenbyHim · Apr 1, 2014

PlainWord said:

2 Thessalonians 2

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [SUP]2 [/SUP]that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shallnot come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? [SUP]6 [/SUP]And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [SUP]9 [/SUP]even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [SUP]12 [/SUP]that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: [SUP]14 [/SUP]whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, [SUP]17 [/SUP]comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

What Paul was doing here is that he was assuring the saints at Thessalonica that they were not in the tribulation (the Day of the Lord's wrath).

There were deceivers in Paul's day who were writing letters to the Thessalonicans and were forging Paul's and the other apostles' signatures. And what these deceivers were telling the saints at Thessalonica was that the Day of Christ (time of Jacob's trouble) was at hand, so a lot of the saints were starting to believe that they had missed the blessed hope (the rapture of the Body of Christ).

That's why one of the things which Paul told the Thessalonicans not to be troubled by and shaken in mind was by a "letter as from us (men pretending to be Paul and the other apostles)."

And that is exactly why Paul started out his second letter to the Thessalonicans as he did in the second chapter.

And by reading this whole passage in context; it is obvious that the "them" and the "they" which receive the strong delusion in verses 11 and 12 are LOST PEOPLE. They are not saved.

You see Plain, those who do not receive the love of the truth today, will receive the strong delusion in the time of Jacob's trouble. Why? Because they hate the truth. They want absolutely nothing to do with the truth.

That is why God sends them the strong delusion. And I believe the instrument which God uses will be the antichrist. Those who hate the truth and who continue to reject the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, those very same people will fall for the antichrist and for his mark.

And they as a result will take the mark of the beast and will worship the antichrist. Therefore, when they take that mark of the antichrist, they will all be damned eternally.

Plain, you have to keep Scripture in context. Compare Scripture with Scripture.

From verse 3 to verse 12 of this chapter (2 Thessalonians 2) is about the strong delusion (antichrist) in the time of Jacob's trouble and about those who will fall for the antichrist.

Hence, Paul was warning them (the Thessalonicans) to not be deceived by any man concerning the revealing of the man of sin (antichrist) simply because some of the Thessalonicans were already being deceived by wicked men who were pretending to be Paul and the other apostles.

These imposters were writing letters to the Thessalonicans, and the letters had Paul's name on them, although it was not from Paul since it was a forged signature.

And again, these imposters were telling the Saints at Thessalonica that they were already in the tribulation (Day of Christ/Day of the Lord), and so it was necessary for Paul to write the epistle he did and to start it out the way he did.

PlainWord said:

Again plain, the Thessalonicans were already worrying that they had missed the Rapture because they were being deceived by men who were telling them that they were already in the time of Jacob's trouble. So, it is very likely that many of the Thessalonicans were starting to look for the man of sin, since many of them were beginning to believe that they missed the Rapture and that they were already in the tribulation period. That is why Paul gave them the timing of the man of sin. It was basically to assure them that they did not miss the Rapture. Which is one of the reasons why he ended the epistle with a comforting note.

PlainWord said:

Plain, Paul does not tell the saints to look for the antichrist or for the new world order.

Paul encourages and exhorts the brethren in his epistles to look for the Lord Jesus Christ (Phil. 3:20, 1 Thess. 4:13-18, Titus 2:13) and to also love His appearing (2 Tim. 4:8).

Furthermore, when the Lord Jesus Christ is describing the revealing of the antichrist in the temple in Jerusalem during the time of Jacob's trouble, the audience which Jesus is giving this warning to Israel. Jesus' audience are the Jews.

You won't find one Christian in that chapter (Matthew 24). As a matter of fact; Matthew 24 is Doctrinally in the Old Testament, at least up until the crucifixion (See Hebrews 9:14-20).

The time of Jacob's trouble is for the Nation of Israel; it is to bring them back in line with God. The time of Jacob's trouble is not about the Church, it is about Israel. And God's dealings with them.

PlainWord said:

Once again Plain, the Elect which are on this Earth during the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week) are not saved, born again Christians. The Body of Christ is already in Heaven before the antichrist is unleashed in the first seal of Revelation 6:1-2.

The Elect are the 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel (James 1:1 & Rev. 7:3-8). You need to get your dispensations right.

The pre-trib. rapture is not a fantasy.

It is Bible Doctrine.

PlainWord said:

Yes I do. And I have shared them. The King James Bible teaches that the Body of Christ is raptured before the time of Jacob's trouble starts. (See 2 Thess. 2:7).

PlainWord said:

At The Rapture, Christ does not return to the Earth. He only descends down to the clouds where He meets His Bride in the air (1 Thess. 4:15-18).

But at His Second Coming (Advent) is when He then returns to the Earth, and we come with Him on white horses (Rev. 19:14).

PlainWord said:

Are you serious? Do you not know how to read?

What about this passage:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [SUP]17 [/SUP]then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

PlainWord said:

Sure I do. You just cannot discern between the Dispensational distinctions were are given in the Holy Scriptures.

A Church Age Saint which will be caught up (1 Thess. 4:17) in the Pre-Rapture are a part of the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:27), they are members of His Body (Eph. 5:30).

A Tribulation Saint is not made a partaker of Jesus Christ UNLESS he endures til the end in the time of Jacob's trouble by holding fast the beginning of his confidence and hope firm unto the end (See Hebrews 3:6 and Hebrews 3:14). Read it. You need to read those passages.

And he (the tribulation saint) holds fast his confidence and hope firm unto the end by not taking the mark of the beast (See Revelation 14:9-12).

You see Plain, the Gospel of the Kingdom is a Gospel of endurance. Why? Because in Daniel's 70th week, Salvation is by Faith AND Works. A Tribulation Saint must secure his salvation by doing the right kind of works (See Matthew 25:31-46, James 2:14-26, and Revelation 12:17; & 14:9-12).

On the Contrary though, no born again Christian has to endure til the end to be saved. Why? Because a saint today in the Church Age is saved by grace through faith WITHOUT ANY WORKS (See Eph. 2:8-10; Rom. 3:28; Rom. 4:4-7; Titus 3:5). Our salvation is secured by the power of the Holy Ghost once He seals us unto the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30). Our Salvation is also secured by the fact that we are members of Christ's Body (1 Cor. 12:27; & Eph. 5:30)

PlainWord said:

The warnings in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, and Luke 21 are addressed and given to Israel.

Not the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is already in Heaven before the antichrist is released in Revelation 6:1-2 (See Revelation 5:8-12)

And the warning which Paul gave to the Thessalonicans in 2 Thessalonians 2 was to assure them that they were not Daniel's 70th week (the tribulation period). And again, the warning in 2 Thess. 2 was a warning to not be deceived by any man concerning the revealing of the antichrist, since a lot of the saints in Thessalonica back in Paul's day were being deceived as corrupt men were falsely telling them that they were in the Day of Christ (the Great Day of His wrath[Rev. 6:16-17])

PlainWord · Apr 1, 2014

Your logic is flawed. If the Thessalonians were to be taken in a pre-Trin Rapture they would need no warning about the AntiChrist because they would be gone.

Your false doctrine requires you to make the above assumption. You have no lesson telling you that the Elect Jesus discusses in Mat 24 are not saved. Your doctrine forces you to assume this. The Elect are clearly saved. Passage after passage tells us this.

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

So you are saying that Paul is not saved. Hmmm. So sad, I was hoping to meet him one day.

Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isaiah 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Isaiah 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

The ELECT are ALWAYS SAVED!!! OT or NT, it matters not, the ELECT are ALWAYS SAVED. There is not a single passage where the ELECT are NOT SAVED. Again, your interpretation is false because your doctrine is false. Since the ELECT are Saved, the below can have only one meaning - Believers are still on earth during the Great Temptation of Satan AKA Great Tribulation.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 John 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

It is so sad that you cannot or refuse to see the truth, to understand God's plan.

Again, you assign things based on your false doctrine. There is one return of Christ thus all passages refer to this one return which happens during the Day of the Lord. There is no earlier rapture return. There is no distinction made between a Saint and a Tribulation Saint. The phrase "Tribulation Saint" does not exist. You've invented it. Go search the Bible for this as I've done.

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NEVER are we saved through Works. The best of our works are as filthy rags!! This never changes. Salvation is a gift of God, not of ourselves. It does not matter when in time. Rules don't change.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

If you don't understand the message of salvation, then I am not surprised that you don't understand the meaning and purpose of the Day of the Lord.

Nowhere are we told that the church has been raptured to heaven to avoid the tribulation. Just the opposite is taught. You teach, "PEACE and SAFETY." What happens to those who think that? SUDDEN DESTRUCTION.

You teach that the end time church is spared while the early church is persecuted. WHY should we have it so good? Does Christ teach His church is spared? Does Christ teach a Free Pass?

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

PlainWord · Apr 1, 2014

When are we told we get our rest? At a Pre-Trib Rapture or at the Day of the Lord?

When will Christ be glorified in His Saints? At a Pre-Trib Rapture or at the Day of the Lord?

Do the churches of the End Times get a free pass or does it endure suffering all the way to the time of the Day of the Lord, AKA Second Coming?

All the answers are found in 2 Thes 1. 2 Thes was written to further clarify 1 Thes. That is just common sense.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Notice the subject is the CHURCHES of GOD. Paul is teaching that they need "Patience and Faith" in all their persecutions and what else - TRIBULATIONS.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

Who is causing Tribulation to the Churches? Certainly not God. God is promising to repay those who persecute the churches.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

When is rest for the persecuted Churches promised? In a Pre-Trib Rapture before the real tribulation starts or after?Pre-Tribbers would have us believe that Christ comes in a peaceful rapture to fly his church away then God unleashes punishment on the earth. But is that what is taught? Who causes the Trouble during the Great Tribulation? Why it is Satan of course. Satan is the murderer. Satan comes to earth with wrath and great fury knowing that he has but a short time. Satan comes to deceive. It is only AFTER the Tribulation that God repays Satan and his followers for their wicked deeds. SEE????

[SUP]8 [/SUP]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[SUP]10 [/SUP]When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

What day is this? The DAY OF THE LORD. Not an earlier Rapture.

When does our gathering take place? Let's read on...

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

DAY OF CHRIST = DAY OF THE LORD

[SUP]3[/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Which Day again? DAY OF THE LORD.[SUP]

4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

When was Paul with them (The Church of Thessalonica)? Before he wrote his first letter to them. So Paul taught them in person about the Day of the Lord. He is reminding them of his lesson here in his second letter. To believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture one MUST conclude that Paul changed his teaching from when he was with them by his first letter. One must conclude that 1 Thes 4:17 deals with a whole new lesson which is not part of his lesson above.

Does 1 Thes 4:17 really teach an additional, earlier return of Christ which had not been taught anywhere up until this point in history? Let's expand and see.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

Times and seasons of what? This refers back to what Paul was just discussing, the events of verse 17.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

My goodness, Paul just called the event of 1 Thes 4:17 the DAY OF THE LORD. Wait.... You mean to tell me that everything Paul taught agrees with what Jesus taught and that the Lord comes after the Tribulation? Does this mean Paul never invented an earlier return of Christ? That's right!!!!!

That would mean John Nelson Darby, Scofield, Moody, Billy Graham and countless other religious leaders of our day were and are wrong concerning the Rapture???? Again, that's right, they were and are wrong. Should that really surprise anyone?

Where the religious leaders of Christ day any different? They didn't recognize the Messiah when He was standing right in front of them. Christ doesn't need to make two trips back to earth to accomplish his purpose. That would be wasted effort. He doesn't need to come here just to rescue the church then return back to heaven. If that was the purpose of his so- called Rapture return, He could just send angels to do it. He didn't come back to rescue Noah, Lot or anyone else. When Christ returns, He returns to defeat evil and to reign.

PlainWord · Apr 1, 2014

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (DAY CHRIST RETURNS) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Clearly Paul warns us that there will be a deceptive teaching in play before the AntiChrist appears. This deceptive teaching deals with the timing of the return of Christ. The warning seems pretty stern and direct.

Does Jesus give the same warning?

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before.

Man, it sure seems like Jesus gives the same or related warning - Not to be deceived about the identity and timing of the AntiChrist. AntiChrist means "Instead of or in Place of Christ." AntiChrist will come declaring that he IS Christ. He will come in acting as we would expect Christ to act.

There are three main teachings today concerning when Christ returns:

1) Before the Tribulation
2) Before Wrath (Mid Trib)
3) Post Tribulation

Which one of these teaches that Christ returns BEFORE the Man of Sin is revealed????

Which one of these teaches two future returns of Christ???

For the AntiChrist to fool people into thinking he is Christ would it not be necessary for him to come first? If Christ had already come and raptured the Church, and everyone witnesses it, how can a different dude then show up claiming to be the real Christ? Wouldn't everyone on earth logically say, "Wait, we saw Christ. He came and took a large percent of the population?"

Non believers are already deceived by definition. Satan does not need to deceive them again or more. He owns those who do not believe in God. Thus are we to believe Satan is coming to deceive the unbeliever? If a Rapture happens before do we then believe Satan is coming to punish the wicked, his followers?

Common Sense. K-I-S-S. Keep it Simple (another word for the "less informed")

ChosenbyHim · Apr 1, 2014

Jackson123 said:

The Rapture of the Body of Christ happens BEFORE the tribulation, and NOT AFTER.

There will be a post trib. Rapture, but it is not of the Body of Christ. But rather; the post trib. Rapture is for Elect Israel (matthew 24:31).

Jackson123 said:

There will be no Christians in the time of Jacob's trouble.

The Body of Christ is already in Heaven before the antichrist is unleashed (See Rev. 5:8-12).

Jackson123 said:

Jackson; in my original post in this thread, I proved from Scripture that the Rapture of the Body of Christ is a pre-trib. Rapture. I showed from the Scriptures that the Body of Christ is not appointed to God's wrath (1 Thess. 1:10).

Jackson123 said:

Jackson; Paul said that the Rapture would happen in a moment (implying that it could be at ANY moment). This fact from Scripture also proves a Pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ.

ChosenbyHim · Apr 1, 2014

PlainWord said:

Plain, I refuted them already. All your doing now is just repeating your faulty logic and error.

PlainWord said:

Plain, the Rapture of the Body of Christ is before the tribulation, because all saints in the Body of Christ have eternal security (Eph. 4:30).

In the tribulation; no one has eternal security EXCEPT for the 144,000 sealed Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel.

PlainWord said:

The Kingdom of God is within every born again Christian:

Romans 14:17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

The Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom. The Kingdom of Heaven is a physical Kingdom on this Earth which the Lord Jesus Christ will reign over during the Millennium.

We Christians must be changed before we all can stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ to receive our rewards and crowns. You see plain, we need a new glorified body which is fit for eternity.

And the only time in which Christians (both dead and living) will receive that new glorified body will be at the Rapture of the Body of Christ.

PlainWord said:

IN Revelation 5:10; the Body of Christ has already been raptured, is in heaven, and every Christian has had their works judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Romans 14:10 and 1 Cor. 3:11-15).

PlainWord said:

Plain, you are simply not understanding the proper order of the resurrections and where the Rapture of the Body of Christ fits in.

In 1 Cor. 15:23; the firstfruits are the Old Testament saints who were resurrected with the Lord Jesus Christ (Prov. 25:7; Matt. 27:51-53). Then they that are Christ's at His coming; refers to the Harvest, which is the resurrection of New Testament saints of the Church Age (1 Cor. 15:51-53; Rev. 4:2).

Then at the end of the tribulation (time of Jacob's trouble); there is a raputre of Elect Israel as well as tribulation saints (Matthew 24:30-31; Revelation 11:12-15).

In verse 24; where Paul writes: "then cometh the end" is referring to the end of the tribulation (Daniel's 70th week). Because after the end of the tribulation, then Christ sets up His Millennial Kingdom where He rules and reigns for 1,000 years.

PlainWord said:

Plain, like I told you before, you need to compare Scripture with Scripture. 1 Cor. 15:51-56 describes certain aspects and details about the Rapture of the Body of Christ; where as 1 Thess. 4:13-18 describes other aspects concerning the rapture of the Body of Christ.

PlainWord said:

Plain, the Holy Scriptures do teach a pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ. I proved that in the O.P. of this thread.

And although in the Gospel of John; while the Rapture has not yet been fully revealed, The Lord Jesus Christ teaches a little on the rapture of the Body of Christ in John 10:2-6 and also John 14:1-4.

PlainWord said:

1 Thess. 4:13-18 and 1 Cor. 15:51-56 are about the same event, just describing different details concerning that same event.

PlainWord said:

Christ descends down to the clouds in the air to catch away His Bride (1 Thess. 4:15-18). He does not return to the Earth at the Rapture of the Body of Christ. He only returns to the Earth at His Second Coming, and we come back with Him (again, see Rev. 19:14).

PlainWord said:

Again Plain, at the Rapture of the Body of Christ, the Lord only descends unto the clouds in the air to meet His Bride (1 Thess. 4:15-18).

But at the Second Coming is when he returns to the Earth.

PlainWord said:

Plain, where do you think the Judgment Seat of Christ is going to take place??

I'll give you a hint: It is not going to take place on the Earth.

PlainWord said:

This statement of yours truly shows your ignorance concerning the Dispensational distinctions in the word of God.

There is a different and a distinction made in the Scriptures between the Church Age Saint and the Tribulation Saint.

For one thing; the means of salvation for people today in the Chruch Age is grace through faith alone without any works (Eph. 2:8-10; Rom. 4:4-7; Tit. 3:5). While salvation in the time of Jacob's trouble is faith and works (Matt. 25:31-46; Heb. 3:6; Jas. 2:14-26; Rev. 14:9-12).

There is a difference and distinction between the Christian and the Tribulation Saint, and if you still cannot see the distinction that is made in the Scriptures, well then you need to pray and ask God to show you them in His word.

PlainWord said:

And in the CONTEXT, the Elect is Israel. Not the Church

PlainWord said:

Again, and the Elect is Israel (144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes)

PlainWord said:

Not Christians.

It is a multitude of Tribulation Saints.

PlainWord said:

No, it teaches the correct order and sequence of events, where Christ comes in the clouds in the air to catch away His saints (the bride of Christ), and tries our works at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

PlainWord said:

Those warnings are given to Israel in the Gospels. The context shows that. In Matthew 24 it is the Gospel of the Kingdom being preached in all the world and not the Gospel of the grace of God.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is connected with Israel. AND NOT THE CHURCH.

PlainWord said:

Wrong again plain. There is a clear distinction made in the Scriptures between Church Age saints and Tribulation Saints. And I already proved that by showing you from the Scriptures that the Gospel of the Kingdom is being preached in Matthew 24. And the Gospel of the Kingdom is connected to the House of Israel. Not the Church. Get your dispensations right.

Today in the Church Age, we do not preach the Gospel of the Kingdom. But rather, we preach the Gospel of the Grace of God.

Stop ignoring the clear distinctions that are given in the Holy Scriptures.

PlainWord said:

Don't worry about hurting my feelings.

Plain, you are deceived.

You need to learn about the dispensational truths found in the Holy Scriptures.

Be assured, that the King James Bible teaches a Pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ.

PlainWord · Apr 2, 2014

Just curious,

How many people reading the above agree that you can take a man-made doctrine called Dispensationalism and totally alter the Word of God with it?

PlainWord · Apr 2, 2014

To Chosen,

Let's say hypothetically that Christ comes tomorrow and Raptures the church and you, me and hundreds of millions of other Christians are taken up in the sky, transformed then whisked off to heaven. The whole world witnesses this event.

Then 3.5 years later a totally different entity appears in Jerusalem claiming to be Christ. He calls lightening down from heaven and does other signs. He then tells the world to worship him. How many people would actually believe this dude is Christ when they saw the real Christ 3.5 years earlier?

The whole world (pretty much) falls for this phony. What is this guy's message? How does he convince people that the previous Christ was the fake? The whole world has been programmed by the church to believe in the rapture and if the rapture already happened, wouldn't the A/C have a very hard time fooling anybody? Is he going to have his own rapture? Just wondering from a practical prospective Chosen, how do you see this playing out in reality?

PlainWord · Apr 2, 2014

As for me being deceived Chosen, show me the passage that warns me Not to believe that the true Christ comes after the AntiChrist. Show me the passage that warns me not to be fooled into thinking that Christ doesn't return before the AntiChrist.

While you are at it, show me any verse that discussing the living being taken off to heaven for 3.5 years or 7 years or any period of time.

kingerik · Apr 2, 2014

PlainWord said:

Honestly, with that much chaos, I can see people believing in the antichrist...because I know he will be slick. People believe a lot when they don't know what to believe. I mean people still believe when people say "the world is ending tomorrow thus says the lord" when the bible says no ones the day or the hour. People are still fooled easily.

Cobus · Apr 2, 2014

Chosenbyhim, who or what is God's wrath/anger? For the wrath/anger of God flared up many times before. Look here is one time... 2 Sam 24:1... And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

And to show you that the tribulation is not the judgement and condemnation awaiting the evil ones but merely a very hard time as the world has NEVER seen... It will be so hard that is God did not shorten the number of days, NO ONE will make it, not even the righteous.... WOW!

Matthew 24... But look for the ELECT'S sake God shortened the days... WOW. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Elect is in the tribulation for sure.... So Post Trib is the only true doctrine.

RickyZ · Apr 2, 2014

Honestly, it doesn't matter whether you're pre, mid, or post trib. Your efforts and energy would be much better spent by praying for and ministering to people who are hurting. We have a forum here that is chock full of them. You can pray for people no matter what you believe. Only satan benefits from believers going at each other like this. Let's not get caught up in his traps.

notuptome · Apr 2, 2014

RickyZ said:

We are told to redeem the time....before the rapture of course...the days are indeed perilous.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Mcartermlb · Apr 2, 2014

I also use to believe in pre-trib because that's what we had been taught growing up, but the scriptures didn't back it up. If know one had ever told you anything about pre-trib you would never believe it, but since that is the traditional teaching since around the 1800's that's what many believe. Forgive me for not using scripture at this moment but I promise to be ready next time. The bible says in I believe it's 2 Peter 4 that the scriptures are not for any private interpretation. The bible is also very clear when it says that when Christ returns all shall see. But if you believe in a secret rapture then that would not be true. I know some of you will argue that if he doesn't touch the earth then he didn't return and my response would be.......NOT! The bible also says to let know on deceive you, if someone says that he is in the desert or he is here or their, do not believe them, for when he returns all shall see. If there is a rapture then this scripture would not be true, because after this invisible rapture, when people would say, he has come, then that scripture would be nullified. Of course this is the short response, but I think I have given my point of view.

PlainWord · Apr 2, 2014

kingerik said:

There will only be chaos if there is a pre-trib rapture. If there is no pre-trib rapture, there will not be that level of chaos. Let's say the Bible clearly teaches one return of Christ and that return is AFTER the Great Tribulation (which is the clear reading of the word, see Mat 24 and Mark 13), then the first "Christ" to appear will be the False Christ. Those thinking a Rapture comes first stand a much greater chance of being deceived than those who don't.

I am pretty convinced that the False Christ will stage a Rapture. He at least will stage a gathering to him of Christians. What he does once they gather is anyone's guess (and I have a pretty good guess). Proof of this is right here.

Mat 24:

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before.
[SUP]
26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

We can clearly see Jesus warning believers, "NOT TO GO OUT AFTER THE FALSE CHRIST." For Jesus to give such a warning, it can only be bad to go out, right??? For those that think this warning is only for unbelievers, think again!!

This is a larger topic but I also believe that the seals, trumpets and bowls are mostly spiritual and that we are already into them. We know for a fact that when Jesus does return at HIS second coming, things on earth will be normal. Nobody (unbelievers) will see it coming.

Mat 24:

[SUP]37 [/SUP]But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

[SUP]39 [/SUP]And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

PlainWord · Apr 2, 2014

RickyZ said:

Oh, it matters greatly what you believe concerning the order of appearances between Christ and the False Christ. It could mean even your salvation if you allow yourself to be deceived. That's why we have multiple passages telling us the correct order and warning us about the Greatest Satanic Deception ever!!! Keep in mind we have ZERO teachings that there are two more returns of Christ.

The Rapture is a key component of Satan's deception. Most of the Church has fallen for it. I believe most of the church will be killed as a result because they will go out thinking it is Christ when it is the False Christ.

We know there is a great multitude in heaven who "Came out" of the Great Tribulation, see Rev 7. This means they died or were killed. We also know that by the time Christ returns, there will only be a remnant of Christians left. This is why I am doing my level best to spread the word on this Fake and Unbiblical Pre-Trib Rapture.

PlainWord · Apr 2, 2014

To believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, one MUST BELIEVE that all the warnings that Jesus and Paul give concerning the timing don't apply to them. Instead, they believe these warnings are for the unsaved who become saved once they see the Rapture. However, there is NO LESSON of this. It is an assumption.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (Notice there is no rapture and 2nd Coming distinction being made) and by our gathering together unto him,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (DAY CHRIST RETURNS) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul teaches a "FALLING AWAY" before Christ returns. Paul teaches that the Man of Sin appears before Christ returns. A Pre-Trib Rapture CANNOT be considered a FALLING AWAY. If there is a Pre-Trib Rapture, then the whole world would at that instance be unsaved. There must then be a massive revival take place BEFORE the Man of Sin, then the FALLING AWAY. If we are to believe the Pre-Trib theory, then we have to believe that the church is taken, a new church comes into being. This new church then immediately falls for the False Christ who basically must say that He's the real Christ who came back again. Then this church must fall away and somehow get killed so that they can be the Great Multitude in Heaven. Then and only then can there still be a remnant of believers left for Christ to gather at His Second Coming.

This is a whole lot of activity under this scenario and not much time. The main problem I see with this thinking is all of it is assumed. There is no lesson or teaching for this. There is no lesson showing a translated Church in heaven. There is no lesson anywhere that provides a pre-Trib timing for Christ's return. All of this is man made fantasy that flies in the face of the real PLAIN TEACHING.

Think it through people!!! Please. Either trust the WORD as it is written, One Return AFTER the Tribulation OR invent all these other things that are not taught and run the risk that the warnings you are ignoring are not intended for you.

ChosenbyHim · Apr 3, 2014

PlainWord said:

I did not create those two exceptions.

They are there though. And you need to acknowledge them.

Enoch did not die. Read Genesis 5:18-24 and also Hebrews 11:5. And this is the first exception to the rule.

The second exception is before the time of Jacob's trouble. The Rapture of the living born again Christians. Which again, takes place before the time of Jacob's trouble.

One other thing; Hebrews 9:27 does not say ALL men.

Hebrews 9:27

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Plain, where in that passage do you see the word "all"?

It's not there.

RickyZ · Apr 3, 2014

notuptome said:

Hi Roger!

Redeem the time indeed... see, the thing is, you're wasting your time and energy here, you're not going to convince anyone here anymore than they are going to convince you. Both (all) of you could move over to the prayer forum, and do some productive intercession for people who are sick and homeless and jobless et al. That is the kind of time we need to redeem. Paul chastised the early churches for spending their time in endless debate and contention. And if there's anything well characterized by this forum, it's debate and contention. So instead of uselessly beating your heads against this wall, go find someone in the prayer forum who's sick and homeless and losing their jobs and do something constructive by covering them in prayer. Then when you go to redeem your minutes, you've got a bunch of them in your pocket. Instead of the imprint of brick on your forehead.

More Scriptural proof of a Pre-trib. Rapture.

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